Really Fun Graphics Friday - Transportation Patterns

[pixy0stix]

Apr 1, 2024 16:05:27 GMT -5 erbear said:

Mar 30, 2024 9:39:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yet another thread where people justify driving over any other mode. I'd like one thread where people problem solve and talk themselves into changing their mode of transportation.

@@@@
What is it that you do that you think the rest of us should be doing? I'm genuinely curious to hear how others manage to drive less when the infrastructure isn't set up for it and they work outside the home or have kids they need to lug to school or care.

@@@@

My kid is in his neighborhood school. We are 1 mile away from it. He took the bus when I didn't need before school care, but now I have an ebike with a kid trailer to drop him off in the mornings. His summer care I chose in part because it's about a quarter mile away from our house, and we'll walk/bike there. Even when I was panicking trying to find a job last fall after I was laid off, I chose to apply to jobs within my community vs going for higher paid jobs that required a longer commute. My house is located next to just about everything we need in biking distance. My H will start biking to work in the summer when he's not having to pick up the kid after school.

I live in a community that prioritizes other modes of travel other than cars. They're actively changing old car infrastructure to be more bike/ped friendly. I also know a ton of people that are definitely part of the #fuckcars movement that would be happy to point me to more resources should I need them.

[aurora]

Apr 1, 2024 16:05:27 GMT -5 erbear said:

Mar 30, 2024 9:39:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yet another thread where people justify driving over any other mode. I'd like one thread where people problem solve and talk themselves into changing their mode of transportation.

@@@@
What is it that you do that you think the rest of us should be doing? I'm genuinely curious to hear how others manage to drive less when the infrastructure isn't set up for it and they work outside the home or have kids they need to lug to school or care.

We bought our house with transit in mind.* I can walk to my imperfect but functional bus stop in 6 minutes. We can also walk to a small commercial area with some amenities in about 10 min.

And genuinely being OK with it taking longer to commute by bus than by private vehicle.

*ETA since wawa was taking about tradeoffs, the house was more expensive and on a much smaller lot than we would have preferred, if we weren't thinking about our carbon footprint.

[basilosaurus]

Re slugging when we were in the DMV area there was a slug line in front of the office building which was on the va side of the riverfront. We never took it but it seemed very popular. It resembled a taxi line at the airport. I can't believe it's been almost 10 years since then but I have no doubt things are more organized and app connected.

Someone asked about making the transition to one or no cars, it required a fair amount of geographic change. I've gone back and forth many times due to military moves.

The mindset shift includes being willing to wake up earlier to wait in the cold for a late bus. And that requires having a job flexible enough to not punish you. Or to accept they kicked everyone off the train due to a transformer explosion further in and walking the final mile and not getting fired Ask me how I have that specific example!

But the selfish benefit is not having to drive, where I can sleep or read or just people watch all without raising my blood pressure at asshole drivers. That's the shift I think people can embrace because no one likes rush hour traffic. I think we're more successful speaking to self interest.

I've never gone zero car. Costco is hard to manage without . Plus I like to go to nature where I know better than to expect public transport. Even in Japan which has widely respected infrastructure I definitely needed a car due to my mostly rural location and have a job far from my partners.

Someone I think mentioned driving a short distance to make a public option easier and how Google maps doesn't often suggest that. This is very true and requires education campaigns to promote even unofficial park and rides.

I will say when I'm in some countries the maps recommend a ride share as part of the commute. Even if they don't people can look up transport maps and figure if they can get to/from easily. So it's not a no car solution but it limits reliance on the cars. I used to take the metro to the end of the line then get Uber for monthly doctor visits. It's not perfect, but it certainly is better than not trying.

[scm1011]

Apr 1, 2024 17:30:57 GMT -5 aurora said:

Apr 1, 2024 16:05:27 GMT -5 erbear said:

And genuinely being OK with it taking longer to commute by bus than by private vehicle.

Apr 2, 2024 4:07:42 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

The mindset shift includes being willing to wake up earlier to wait in the cold for a late bus. And that requires having a job flexible enough to not punish you. Or to accept they kicked everyone off the train due to a transformer explosion further in and walking the final mile and not getting fired Ask me how I have that specific example!

I think this is a big part of it - the mindset shift. Americans are used to immediate gratification and making decisions over what is most personally efficient vs. what is beneficial to the whole. We tend to make excuses as to why something would work for us. I'm reminded of the walking to school post where people scoffed at walking in the rain/cold/snow or while carrying a saxophone or whatever. These are certainly mindset shifts and once you get into them its an easy routine to keep up. Sure I could get where I'm going faster by driving, but our family has made walking/biking/taking public transport the norm. 

[sent]

Apr 2, 2024 8:07:51 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Apr 2, 2024 4:07:42 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I think this is a big part of it - the mindset shift. Americans are used to immediate gratification and making decisions over what is most personally efficient vs. what is beneficial to the whole. We tend to make excuses as to why something would work for us. I'm reminded of the walking to school post where people scoffed at walking in the rain/cold/snow or while carrying a saxophone or whatever. These are certainly mindset shifts and once you get into them its an easy routine to keep up. Sure I could get where I'm going faster by driving, but our family has made walking/biking/taking public transport the norm. 

We are not a chill society. I currently have an employee who takes the bus. She arrived late the other day because of some bus issue. OK I understand, at least in this day and age with technology she was able to text/call us and keep us informed. But then our patients have to also accept that they might not get seen on time because we're now running understaffed. And then they will be late to school, jobs etc. and it's a whole cascade. (Of course we work very hard to not let the patient run late but then it's stressful for us.) Sometimes patients will contact us that they're on the bus but there was a mishap and they're running late. We will still see them, but now squeezing people into the schedule can affect the others who drove in their cars and showed up on time for their appointments. 

I don't think we will ever ease up on our obsession with timeliness and productivity in my lifetime. There seemed to be a glimmer of relaxation after COVID but now it seems like we're back to where we used to be. At least for those of us who can't have WFH as part of our work lives.

[scm1011]

Apr 2, 2024 8:27:53 GMT -5 sent said:

Apr 2, 2024 8:07:51 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

I think this is a big part of it - the mindset shift. Americans are used to immediate gratification and making decisions over what is most personally efficient vs. what is beneficial to the whole. We tend to make excuses as to why something would work for us. I'm reminded of the walking to school post where people scoffed at walking in the rain/cold/snow or while carrying a saxophone or whatever. These are certainly mindset shifts and once you get into them its an easy routine to keep up. Sure I could get where I'm going faster by driving, but our family has made walking/biking/taking public transport the norm. 

We are not a chill society. I currently have an employee who takes the bus. She arrived late the other day because of some bus issue. OK I understand, at least in this day and age with technology she was able to text/call us and keep us informed. But then our patients have to also accept that they might not get seen on time because we're now running understaffed. And then they will be late to school, jobs etc. and it's a whole cascade. (Of course we work very hard to not let the patient run late but then it's stressful for us.) Sometimes patients will contact us that they're on the bus but there was a mishap and they're running late. We will still see them, but now squeezing people into the schedule can affect the others who drove in their cars and showed up on time for their appointments. 

I don't think we will ever ease up on our obsession with timeliness and productivity in my lifetime. There seemed to be a glimmer of relaxation after COVID but now it seems like we're back to where we used to be. At least for those of us who can't have WFH as part of our work lives.

Ok but this is also true of driving. You hit unexpected traffic and are late. Your car breaks down. Just like with driving, I bake in extra time when commuting via bus/train to absorb any unexpected delay. 

[wanderingback]

I definitely have a more lenient late policy where I work now since 95% of people take public transportation. At least here, it can be unreliable. I usually give myself an extra 30 minutes to get places that need to be on time. Between slow service, construction, medical emergencies, stuff on the tracks, angry passengers, etc, you just never know. Sometimes you’ll be on the express train and it’ll just start running local, I hate when that happens. But overall I love taking public transportation and hope I never ever have to own a car again. The main things that are tricky are buying and carrying large or heavy items when it comes up, but we figure out with arounds and it’s just fine.

But overall I think the main problem is people don’t have access to public transportation in the first place. A 30 min car commute Becoming a 60 min bus commute, reasonable. A 30 min car commute becoming a 3 hour bus commute where you still have to walk 2 miles, unreasonable, especially if you have other options. Carpooling and making less trips for errands, etc are good options.

[sent]

Apr 2, 2024 8:41:49 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Apr 2, 2024 8:27:53 GMT -5 sent said:

We are not a chill society. I currently have an employee who takes the bus. She arrived late the other day because of some bus issue. OK I understand, at least in this day and age with technology she was able to text/call us and keep us informed. But then our patients have to also accept that they might not get seen on time because we're now running understaffed. And then they will be late to school, jobs etc. and it's a whole cascade. (Of course we work very hard to not let the patient run late but then it's stressful for us.) Sometimes patients will contact us that they're on the bus but there was a mishap and they're running late. We will still see them, but now squeezing people into the schedule can affect the others who drove in their cars and showed up on time for their appointments. 

I don't think we will ever ease up on our obsession with timeliness and productivity in my lifetime. There seemed to be a glimmer of relaxation after COVID but now it seems like we're back to where we used to be. At least for those of us who can't have WFH as part of our work lives.

Ok but this is also true of driving. You hit unexpected traffic and are late. Your car breaks down. Just like with driving, I bake in extra time when commuting via bus/train to absorb any unexpected delay. 

I realize this but having done both, it has always felt like a car commute is more within your control. Whereas a bus commute is not as flexible, you are at the mercy of the schedule and the route. You do need to bake in extra commute time and it's a mindset and cultural shift. I significantly altered my car commute for years due to major construction on the usual route. A bus would not be able to do that.  I've also noticed once someone can afford a car, they usually buy one at least to use for their work commute to not have to rely on the bus.

I stopped hiring doctors who lived in NYC and had to rely on the bus to get to the office in the NJ suburbs (the NYC bus stops right in front of my building). It became too much of a hassle when they did run into bus troubles. My patient base was not ready for that cultural shift to accept that the doctor is stuck due to bus issues. When I lived in NYC and took the subway, the offices and patients were usually more understanding about rescheduling or not being seen on time. Because if the subway was late, usually the doctor and the staff who were all on that train were all late and everyone was hustling into the office at the same time. 

I just remembered that I had a temp employee who used to bike everywhere. I later found out she ended up in a bike accident and broke something. She was out of commission from work for a while as she healed. There is no good answer. 

[pixy0stix]

Asking about and requiring transportation is a violation of the Equal Opportunity blah blah law. It's considered financial information and as such should not be used as hiring criteria.

ETA: Sent - I get that you are a minority/disabled woman owned business, but every time you post about it you're breaking some discrimination law or other. Perhaps maybe stop posting about your business?

[sent]

Apr 2, 2024 10:15:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Asking about and requiring transportation is a violation of the Equal Opportunity blah blah law. It's considered financial information and as such should not be used as hiring criteria.

ETA: Sent - I get that you are a minority/disabled woman owned business, but every time you post about it you're breaking some discrimination law or other. Perhaps maybe stop posting about your business?

I never said we asked.

[wawa]

Apr 2, 2024 9:42:04 GMT -5 sent said:

Apr 2, 2024 8:41:49 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

Ok but this is also true of driving. You hit unexpected traffic and are late. Your car breaks down. Just like with driving, I bake in extra time when commuting via bus/train to absorb any unexpected delay. 

I realize this but having done both, it has always felt like a car commute is more within your control. Whereas a bus commute is not as flexible, you are at the mercy of the schedule and the route. You do need to bake in extra commute time and it's a mindset and cultural shift. I significantly altered my car commute for years due to major construction on the usual route. A bus would not be able to do that.  I've also noticed once someone can afford a car, they usually buy one at least to use for their work commute to not have to rely on the bus.

I stopped hiring doctors who lived in NYC and had to rely on the bus to get to the office in the NJ suburbs (the NYC bus stops right in front of my building). It became too much of a hassle when they did run into bus troubles. My patient base was not ready for that cultural shift to accept that the doctor is stuck due to bus issues. When I lived in NYC and took the subway, the offices and patients were usually more understanding about rescheduling or not being seen on time. Because if the subway was late, usually the doctor and the staff who were all on that train were all late and everyone was hustling into the office at the same time. 

I just remembered that I had a temp employee who used to bike everywhere. I later found out she ended up in a bike accident and broke something. She was out of commission from work for a while as she healed. There is no good answer. 

There is no PERFECT answer.  Lots of things are good answers. 
We need to shift our thinking about those various imperfect answers to actually take into account the whole not burning down the planet part of the equation when we're weighing options.

Everything you've outlined are big considerations that we all need to collectively shift on to make this work, but I think part of that shift is recognizing the rose colored glasses through which we see driving since it's the national default.  People are injured in car crashes too.  You can get held up while driving.  etc.  I had to get over this myself - like I would get so frustrated when I was running late coming home because my bus was late, but I used to get stuck in traffic while driving all the time.  At least when i'm on the bus I can make a few calls/send texts to figure out how to adjust plans as needed without being a danger to myself and others on the road trying to use my phone while driving.  

I do recognize that jobs that have strict schedules are much harder to swap for less than great transit.  But for those who DO have that flexiblity - we should be taking it. 

re: timeliness - It's actually one of the big selling points of biking when we're building campaigns to encourage more active transportation - there are (almost) never walking or biking traffic jams!  Like, walking through times square?  yeah, you might get slowed down. But otherwise you're going to get where you're going at in the same amount of time almost every time.  It's very predictable.  Even in places with lots of bike travel where you'll see queues of bikes at signals, they're going to clear every cycle.  we don't (generally) have bike jams, and usually bikes don't have to sit at the back of a queue of cars when there is a vehicular backup since they either have their own lane or can come up a shoulder or sidewalk.  So if your normal driving commute is like 20 minutes, but on bad traffic days can be 40, it's hard to account for that.  But if biking is 30 minutes it's pretty much ALWAYS going to be that amount of time unless your legs give out so you can easily plan your day accordingly.  And heck, it might go down over time as you get more fit. 

[pixy0stix]

Apr 2, 2024 10:27:14 GMT -5 sent said:

Apr 2, 2024 10:15:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Asking about and requiring transportation is a violation of the Equal Opportunity blah blah law. It's considered financial information and as such should not be used as hiring criteria.

ETA: Sent - I get that you are a minority/disabled woman owned business, but every time you post about it you're breaking some discrimination law or other. Perhaps maybe stop posting about your business?

I never said we asked.

You said that you stopped hiring them. So how else are you getting the information?

[sent]

Apr 2, 2024 10:28:55 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Apr 2, 2024 10:27:14 GMT -5 sent said:

I never said we asked.

You said that you stopped hiring them. So how else are you getting the information?

Doctors almost always list their address on the resumes. People applying for other staff positions usually list their general town and state if not their full address. So it's not hard to separate the resumes by state of residence and evaluate each pile from there. After that, people will usually bring up the commute themselves since it's an obvious point in accepting the job + hours.

[sent]

pixy0stix, also I just remembered. Toward the end, I focused my efforts first on recruiting doctors who were already in our state before posting it on a national job board like Indeed. And then a few years ago we finally we just closed that particular position and transitioned the days to an existing doctor. This discussion reminded me of the commute and culture thing.

I don't go out of my way to do illegal things. It's A LOT of legal things to keep up with.

[Nugget T. Brain, The OG]

I had to take the bus to college from my house when I was younger. It was a 12 mile trip, and to get to my 7:30am class I had to be at the first bus stop at 5:30. 3 buses later I was at school lol.

[waverly]

@@@

We lived in NYC with no car for 4 years. Another 2 years we walked to work. I can only drive to my job now but DH works from home. We chose a house where we can walk downtown and is near the only public transit available and the kids take the school bus. But there are really no options for my work that don’t require a car even if I switch jobs/ locations. I can’t think of any locations around a train unless I extend the commute to over an hour which wouldn’t work for the family. I’m not sure extending commutes is in the spirit of the idea. The idea might be more that the infrastructure is in place to live closer to work. The bus system in the burbs is crap.

[shauni27]

I always read these threads and end up feeling that the only way to live sustainably is to live in or near a city, and that rural living is bad for the planet. (Rural rural. Not suburb rural, lol.)

Obviously, as someone who lives in a rural area, I hate the idea of that. But I also hate the idea of killing the planet. So I personally do what I can to offset the lack of public transportation, such as carpool, recycle, have only one kid, solar power, converting to electric from propane, grow some of our own food, get our milk and meat and eggs and produce from farms within a few miles, etc.

It is not perfect, and I know there is a lot more I could do (move to a more urban area, or even "suburban" area for my region, which would be closer to schools and limited public transportation).

[shauni27]

Apr 2, 2024 11:33:07 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

I had to take the bus to college from my house when I was younger. It was a 12 mile trip, and to get to my 7:30am class I had to be at the first bus stop at 5:30. 3 buses later I was at school lol.

In HS I had to take the public transportation bus "home." To drive directly would take 22 minutes. To take public bus was an hour and the closest it brought me was 15 minutes to home (by car) and my mom would meet me there because it was closer to her work. I LOVED those bus rides, I had so much fun getting to know people.

[wildrice]

Apr 2, 2024 10:53:14 GMT -5 sent said:

pixy0stix , also I just remembered. Toward the end, I focused my efforts first on recruiting doctors who were already in our state before posting it on a national job board like Indeed. And then a few years ago we finally we just closed that particular position and transitioned the days to an existing doctor. This discussion reminded me of the commute and culture thing.

I don't go out of my way to do illegal things. It's A LOT of legal things to keep up with.

As a friendly HR professional, just a reminder that getting that information in a way other than asking AND using that information to make hiring decisions still counts as discrimination. And most relevant here, don't ever put anything in writing that you wouldn't be ok with ending up in court. 

An easier way to get around this is to make clear that the expectation is that you are on time for appointments, no matter what (with occasional exception for real emergencies). That way it's up to applicants to decide if they want to take the job if they don't think they can consistently get there on time due to public transit. I think you can even ask on an application something like "Our office requires appointments to start promptly at 8am. Can you consistently arrive by that time every day"

[wildrice]

My H and I have been a 1 car household for most of our relationship. We don't have kids, which I am sure would complicate things. It also helps that my H is very introverted and doesn't really make plans with people without me, and his hobbies are all home based. But I think the biggest thing to staying a 1 car household is just being flexible with each other and with planning our weeks.

For a few years we worked either at the same place or close to each other, which meant we drove in together. Sometimes this meant one of us would go in earlier than we needed to or stay later than we needed to, but we felt the trade off was worth it and I never really mind stealing a little extra time to read or browse my phone! There was one point where once a week he had to drive elsewhere and leave much earlier than I wanted to, so I took 2 buses to work. If that wasn't an option I probably just would have had him drop me off early.

We both chose jobs that allow WFH at least part time, so currently we're rotating days and the person at home just won't have a car. Occasionally I think it would be nice to be able to run an errand and I don't have a car for it, but then I just wait and do it another time. I make medical appointments and such for the 1 day a week that we're both home. I do take the bus once or twice a month when we both have to be in the office at the same time, and if something really unusual happens - like I had to go to the airport a couple of weeks ago while he was at work - we are lucky to have Uber available. But those things are so few and far between that we save a lot of money by not having a second vehicle.

The other key for me is that we mostly use the same doctors, same hair salon, etc so we'll make appointments back to back or at the same time. This cuts down on the number of trips being made by our household and also eliminates the need to plan around each other.

Frankly even without the environmental impact of cutting down on cars on the road, it just saves us so much money not to have to maintain 2 cars, pay insurance on both, buy the vehicle itself, etc. I won't say we will never end up in a situation where we need 2 cars again, but I honestly find it unlikely. If was looking for a new job I wouldn't likely take it unless I could still balance my new schedule with his to avoid needing to buy a second car (and it would need to be a very big raise to offset the cost of obtaining that second car anyway!).

[aurora]

Apr 2, 2024 12:16:32 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

Apr 2, 2024 11:33:07 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

I had to take the bus to college from my house when I was younger. It was a 12 mile trip, and to get to my 7:30am class I had to be at the first bus stop at 5:30. 3 buses later I was at school lol.

In HS I had to take the public transportation bus "home." To drive directly would take 22 minutes. To take public bus was an hour and the closest it brought me was 15 minutes to home (by car) and my mom would meet me there because it was closer to her work. I LOVED those bus rides, I had so much fun getting to know people.

I'm an introvert who is not generally good at talking to people, but I have to agree that I've met so many interesting people and learned a lot from riding the bus that I never would have drinking solo.

[mysteriouswife]

I was excited to learn I might be able to take public transit for my new job. The thought of not being stuck in a car for over a hour sounds amazing. I will park local to me and hop on a public bus. The overall commute will be about the same time. I will be saving money on gas, repairs, and othe car related expenses including parking.

I hope that Nashville gets their heads out of the clouds and starts moving forward with expanding WeGo and train options

[basilosaurus]

Apr 2, 2024 17:21:10 GMT -5 aurora said:

Apr 2, 2024 12:16:32 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

In HS I had to take the public transportation bus "home." To drive directly would take 22 minutes. To take public bus was an hour and the closest it brought me was 15 minutes to home (by car) and my mom would meet me there because it was closer to her work. I LOVED those bus rides, I had so much fun getting to know people.

I'm an introvert who is not generally good at talking to people, but I have to agree that I've met so many interesting people and learned a lot from riding the bus that I never would have drinking solo.

I, too, learn a lot from drinking solo

I'm sure there a logical fallacy termed for this, where your perception of control is illusory. Yes, you physically control the car, but you can't control traffic or weather or having a mechanical issue. I've been delayed due to all those despite sing extra time for something relatively predictable like weather.

[wawa]

Apr 2, 2024 12:14:46 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

I always read these threads and end up feeling that the only way to live sustainably is to live in or near a city, and that rural living is bad for the planet. (Rural rural. Not suburb rural, lol.)

Obviously, as someone who lives in a rural area, I hate the idea of that. But I also hate the idea of killing the planet. So I personally do what I can to offset the lack of public transportation, such as carpool, recycle, have only one kid, solar power, converting to electric from propane, grow some of our own food, get our milk and meat and eggs and produce from farms within a few miles, etc.

It is not perfect, and I know there is a lot more I could do (move to a more urban area, or even "suburban" area for my region, which would be closer to schools and limited public transportation).

I think rural living that stays rural can be sustainable. What's not really sustainable is how I grew up- on 25 acres in the middle of Amish farms and state game lands with horses and chickens half an hour from everything but my dad commuted about an hour each way for work much closer to the city. Teen Wawa practically lived in her car driving to school, after school job at the mall (which was the opposite direction from home) and social stuff. If you want to live rural but still be at Target once a week and work in the city then...no, I don't think there's any way that keeps making sense when you take that impact into account.

I don't know how your lifestyle shakes out on the continuum from biodynamic farmer who spins her own flax to basically suburban life just with a longer drive, but I do think there's a range there.

What's more of an issue with rural living is that sustainable or not at the personal level, not everyone can have it (or a taste of it) for an OVERALL sustainable situation. All the people moving 3 counties out from DC and Baltimore onto 1 acre homesites with identical faux-colonials on former cornfields are a PROBLEM. And we both know that's not really rural, but "I just want some space" is a driver and it's not a good thing on a lot of levels.  (should add - it's  a problem in an attractive custom home too.  My distaste for faux colonials aside)

[aurora]

Apr 3, 2024 3:42:00 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Apr 2, 2024 17:21:10 GMT -5 aurora said:

I'm an introvert who is not generally good at talking to people, but I have to agree that I've met so many interesting people and learned a lot from riding the bus that I never would have drinking solo.

I, too, learn a lot from drinking solo

I'm sure there a logical fallacy termed for this, where your perception of control is illusory. Yes, you physically control the car, but you can't control traffic or weather or having a mechanical issue. I've been delayed due to all those despite sing extra time for something relatively predictable like weather.

LOL. Of course I meant driving (without drinking!), but I'll leave the typo for fun.

[wesleycrusher]

Apr 3, 2024 9:09:29 GMT -5 aurora said:

Apr 3, 2024 3:42:00 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I, too, learn a lot from drinking solo

I'm sure there a logical fallacy termed for this, where your perception of control is illusory. Yes, you physically control the car, but you can't control traffic or weather or having a mechanical issue. I've been delayed due to all those despite sing extra time for something relatively predictable like weather.

LOL. Of course I meant driving (without drinking!), but I'll leave the typo for fun.

hah, I thought you meant striking up conversations with people at bars, much like striking them up on buses.  

[audette]

Apr 3, 2024 7:25:39 GMT -5 wawa said:

Apr 2, 2024 12:14:46 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

I always read these threads and end up feeling that the only way to live sustainably is to live in or near a city, and that rural living is bad for the planet. (Rural rural. Not suburb rural, lol.)

Obviously, as someone who lives in a rural area, I hate the idea of that. But I also hate the idea of killing the planet. So I personally do what I can to offset the lack of public transportation, such as carpool, recycle, have only one kid, solar power, converting to electric from propane, grow some of our own food, get our milk and meat and eggs and produce from farms within a few miles, etc.

It is not perfect, and I know there is a lot more I could do (move to a more urban area, or even "suburban" area for my region, which would be closer to schools and limited public transportation).

I think rural living that stays rural can be sustainable. What's not really sustainable is how I grew up- on 25 acres in the middle of Amish farms and state game lands with horses and chickens half an hour from everything but my dad commuted about an hour each way for work much closer to the city. Teen Wawa practically lived in her car driving to school, after school job at the mall (which was the opposite direction from home) and social stuff. If you want to live rural but still be at Target once a week and work in the city then...no, I don't think there's any way that keeps making sense when you take that impact into account.

I don't know how your lifestyle shakes out on the continuum from biodynamic farmer who spins her own flax to basically suburban life just with a longer drive, but I do think there's a range there.

What's more of an issue with rural living is that sustainable or not at the personal level, not everyone can have it (or a taste of it) for an OVERALL sustainable situation. All the people moving 3 counties out from DC and Baltimore onto 1 acre homesites with identical faux-colonials on former cornfields are a PROBLEM. And we both know that's not really rural, but "I just want some space" is a driver and it's not a good thing on a lot of levels.  (should add - it's  a problem in an attractive custom home too.  My distaste for faux colonials aside)

I think this is where I keep finding myself on these car culture discussions.  There are huge swathes of this country that do not have public transportation at all, or areas that have some, but it is very limited and means a huge tradeoff in time and effort for commuting.  Where we're not talking about changing a commute of 30 minutes drive to an hour on transit, but instead something along the lines of 1.5 hours or more, often with unsafe walking options at either end of that transit commute.

I've lived in metro areas that had decent transit over the years.  And it's awesome.  I love having more time for knitting, or reading, instead of driving.  Or being able to go out for supper with friends and not have to worry about who is driving home.  But, I question how feasible transit can be for the type of city that isn't a large metro area, with the population density that seems to inherently happen in those.

I live in a metro area of about 400,000.  It's not small, but it's certainly not large.  We're surrounded by farmland - ours is not in a place where people commute to a larger city for daily work - if they work outside the home, it is generally within town.  There are fewer than 30 bus routes in my metro.  None operate on Sunday.  No route has more than an every half hour frequency, some only once an hour, some only during certain times of day, none overnight.  There are many areas of town that are not serviced at all by these routes.

[smock]

Late to this discussion, but it really comes down to priorities. My sister and I both moved back to our hometown area. She wanted a house that met specific size/layout requirements, and ended up a 45-minute drive outside the big city. I wanted walkability so we rent a townhouse. Buying in my neighborhood was not in the budget, but because of our location, we drive maaaybe 2,000 miles a year with a hybrid vehicle. My sister fills up her cars weekly.

Yeah, it stinks that we aren't getting the benefits of home ownership, but the tradeoff is totally worth it for us.