College protests regarding Israel and Palestine

[icedcoffee]

May 1, 2024 10:02:03 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

thanks, all, I appreciate your responses--I only heard part of the story on NPR this morning and then found the link to share, not reading it first. I wholly accept the call out that I did not read the article and should have done so before posting.

I also admit to making a blanket statement and as a Jewish person, still am very pro Palestine and was blindly supporting the protests without thinking of the nuances involved.

Your call outs are appropriate and heard.

Embarrassed, party of 1.

Don't be embarrassed.  It's super complicated.  I think that's why this thread has been so quiet.  Because I suspect most of us feel conflicted.  I know I do.  I want freedom and land for Palestinians and also support Israel and their right to exist and pray for the return of the hostages and and and and....

[Velar Fricative]

May 1, 2024 10:22:49 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

CUNY was also raided by the NYPD last night-students were not occupying any buildings there, and they have not had the same allegations as Columbia. The raid there has not been getting as much coverage. Hellgate has a write up about it: hellgatenyc.com/nypd-storms-city-college

Eric Adams has made a lot of claims in the past week and has not provided any evidence of it, so take any statements he makes with a HEAVY grain of salt. He has smeared other protest movements for years, making false claims.

The occupation of Hamilton Hall was a reference to the 1968 Vietnam War protest, also occurring on 4/30. www.nytimes.com/2024/04/30/nyregion/hamilton-hall-columbia-student-protests.html

Columbia should expel and remove anyone making threats or making Anti-semetic comments. People should also realize that hundreds of riot cops marching down the street with armored vehicles repurposed from the US Military also invokes terror in other students, especially students of color. They do not feel safe now on campus, which will be occupied by the NYPD for at least two weeks. What about their feelings of safety?

BTW a human chain is a form of peaceful protest. As are sit-ins. Protests are meant to be disruptive.

For some reason, the first link isn’t working for me but I think that’s an issue with my connection.

Anyway, per this piece and others I saw, demonstrators marched from Columbia to City College. So, they must not have all been CCNY students protesting. abc7ny.com/amp/city-college-protests-nypd-arrests-over-100-ccny-columbia-protesters-demonstration-at-police-headquarters/14749736/

The NYT also reported that protestors at CCNY did try to occupy an administrative building but were stopped by the NYPD.

Also, protests can be disruptive all they want but a janitor claimed to have been briefly held hostage at Columbia. I am not supporting that kind of fuckery, or any anti-semitic fuckery, or any pro-genocide fuckery, or any other fuckery that is endangering people’s lives and livelihoods. Flame away, but these protests have devolved from vocalizing really legitimate concerns about Gazans and been usurped by enough hateful assholes that now every protest is being painted by a broad brush.

Russia and China are loving this. And Jill Stein is apparently back.

[kiminky]

May 1, 2024 9:02:55 GMT -5 erbear said:

May 1, 2024 8:12:55 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Yeah--This is all super complicated, but the University can't just sit back and let them occupy their buildings. It's private property.

And the other students have a right to go to class without being harassed. I'm struggling with the privilege inherent in some of these protests. "I don't care if I get arrested" is a privilege many college students just don't have...they cannot afford to get kicked out of their universities and they have the right to finish their degrees. Some of the protests have turned blatantly anti-Semitic (not all), and that cannot be allowed.

And I think the inherent messages of the protests are important. 

I agree, that there is almost an element of privilege to be able to protest w/o the fear of arrest or retribution. I have seen many Black Americans supportive of Palestine on social media, but far fewer taking part in the protests. I don't see these protests happening at HBCUs, aside from the school not wanting Biden to speak at their commencement. There are people who know they cannot risk a confrontation with police from years of history of how that would play out and the ramifications for their future. They have worked too hard to get to where they are and cannot leave that to chance with a bad encounter with law enforcement called in by school administration.

[wanderingback]

I promise I’m going to go back and read the articles, but I would like to point out that protests don’t always need to be peaceful. Civil disobedience can come in a lot of forms. I’m not saying that people should be violent towards each other but when atrocities are happening sometimes it takes a little more than just singing songs to get your point across.

[mrsslocombe]

This is the narrative that follows every protest movement.

Initially, there's a lot of support for the idealism of the movement.

Then, local officials, people in power, the media find elements of the movement that are extreme, or violent, or unsympathetic, and amplify that element and use it to discredit the entire movement. They also make up shit, or use things out of context to discredit the movement (See, the recent "violent attack with a flag" that was just someone holding a flag turning around and accidentally hitting someone).

Lather, rinse, repeat.

So while there are people involved in this movement who hold reprehensible views, I am not going to let that narrative overpower the vast majority of protestors who are there because they see thousands of Palestinians starving and dying and feel compelled to do something about it.

[sonrisa]

Different campuses are playing out very differently.

At Brown, you have protestors and administration who negoatiaged and are actually moving towards both divestment and dismantling the protest.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have the situation at UCLA. Violence broke about *between* the protest groups (pro-Palestinian and pro- Israeli students fist fighting and beating each other with sticks) which was separated by police in riot gear.

(Looking for links to add)
www.sfgate.com/news/article/police-clear-pro-palestinian-protesters-from-19432434.php

[basilosaurus]

Yes being arrested can be the point.

I had a roommate who was an activist for various worker rights. Occasionally I'd get a message midday asking me to walk her dog that night because she planned on getting arrested. A few times she made local front page news, and they achieved their goals.

They shut down with a human chain a major road during rush hour. Most people were pissed and had no idea what they were doing nor why (I'd have been pissed too,). They just knew their commute was fucked. So it failed on getting people involved. But, the people who makes policy heard and changed. So I guess it worked.

[sonrisa]

May 1, 2024 20:46:21 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Lolz

www.axios.com/2024/05/01/trump-campaign-trial-tweaks

His team set up a campaign stop last week with about 100 supporters at a construction site after Trump complained that there weren't sufficient crowds outside the courthouse to support him

I want to see some of the Gaza protestors showing up at the courthouse. This jack ass could be making US foreign policy for four years. Let him know how you feel rather than shutting down finals study groups of equally inconsequential classmates. 

[shauni27]

You may recall I live by Dartmouth; the students organized a peaceful protest last night and 90 students were arrested by the state police for creating an encampment on the green. The college called the state police to arrest them for having tents, which is against school policy, on the green.

This looks SO BAD for the college.

www.thedartmouth.com/article/2024/05/campus-encampments-live-updates-police-start-taking-students-away

[pixy0stix]

Live coverage on the Today show from the UCLA encampment sounded like a literal war zone. Police were using flash bangs and (I think) rubber bullets.

[pixy0stix]

May 1, 2024 23:17:55 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 1, 2024 20:46:21 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Lolz

www.axios.com/2024/05/01/trump-campaign-trial-tweaks

His team set up a campaign stop last week with about 100 supporters at a construction site after Trump complained that there weren't sufficient crowds outside the courthouse to support him

I want to see some of the Gaza protestors showing up at the courthouse. This jack ass could be making US foreign policy for four years. Let him know how you feel rather than shutting down finals study groups of equally inconsequential classmates. 

This is some statement.

[sonrisa]

May 2, 2024 8:53:23 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

May 1, 2024 23:17:55 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

I want to see some of the Gaza protestors showing up at the courthouse. This jack ass could be making US foreign policy for four years. Let him know how you feel rather than shutting down finals study groups of equally inconsequential classmates. 

This is some statement.

if they want policy change, get where the people making policy are. Which isn’t some hall at Humboldt PolyTechnic. There is space set aside specifically for free speech/protest at the courthouse and yet I haven’t heard any reports of mass action there. Nor in DC near the legislature.

If they want divestment, then why aren’t they lobbying state legislators to end anti boycott laws? www.hrw.org/news/2019/04/23/us-states-use-anti-boycott-laws-punish-responsible-businesses

[jane6672]

May 2, 2024 9:42:29 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 2, 2024 8:53:23 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

This is some statement.

if they want policy change, get where the people making policy are. Which isn’t some hall at Humboldt PolyTechnic. There is space set aside specifically for free speech/protest at the courthouse and yet I haven’t heard any reports of mass action there. Nor in DC near the legislature.

If they want divestment, then why aren’t they lobbying state legislators to end anti boycott laws? www.hrw.org/news/2019/04/23/us-states-use-anti-boycott-laws-punish-responsible-businesses

Idk why you’re viewing this as either/or

also, you don’t seem very informed on what has or has not been happening in NYC - there have been quite a lot of protests focused at courthouses, in addition to campus protests. Those didn’t/aren’t getting nationwide media coverage like the campus protests are - see why the campus protests are important?

And many of the action groups I follow have been focused on the anti-boycott laws (from when they were first introduced), among the other issues they’re tackling on with legislators. Again, doesn’t get coverage because it’s not so interesting/inflammatory.

More than one thing can be happening at a time, you (individuals or groups) don’t have to pick just one thing.

[mrsslocombe]

A follow-up to Eric Adams' claim that Columbia protestors were coordinating with "the wife of a known terrorist."

apnews.com/article/columbia-protests-eric-adams-outsiders-5319fdf36599295a3840d77c69458b57

Her husband was arrested in 2003, jury failed to convict.

I don't necessarily buy her story that she was just happened to be in NYC, or just visited the encampment etc.

But the other details are a reminder that it is VERY easy for politicians, people in power, and the media to use headlines and vague statements to imply a much more sinister story than the truth.

[sonrisa]

May 2, 2024 9:55:11 GMT -5 jane6672 said:

May 2, 2024 9:42:29 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

if they want policy change, get where the people making policy are. Which isn’t some hall at Humboldt PolyTechnic. There is space set aside specifically for free speech/protest at the courthouse and yet I haven’t heard any reports of mass action there. Nor in DC near the legislature.

If they want divestment, then why aren’t they lobbying state legislators to end anti boycott laws? www.hrw.org/news/2019/04/23/us-states-use-anti-boycott-laws-punish-responsible-businesses

Idk why you’re viewing this as either/or

also, you don’t seem very informed on what has or has not been happening in NYC

True. Stepping out.


Locally, I'm seeing actions that only affect people who don't have relevant power. Asking for divestment from organizations that are barred by state law from divesting feels like that. 

[laladypoet]

college protests are essential to social movements and creating change, wtf are you on about

[pixy0stix]

May 2, 2024 11:14:20 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 2, 2024 9:55:11 GMT -5 jane6672 said:

Idk why you’re viewing this as either/or

also, you don’t seem very informed on what has or has not been happening in NYC

True. Stepping out.


Locally, I'm seeing actions that only affect people who don't have relevant power. Asking for divestment from organizations that are barred by state law from divesting feels like that. 

Did you feel this way with the BLM protests happening in other parts of the country than the events that sparked them? Because I'm guessing that's a resounding, "No."

[fryjack2]

May 2, 2024 10:58:25 GMT -5 mrsslocombe said:

A follow-up to Eric Adams' claim that Columbia protestors were coordinating with "the wife of a known terrorist."

apnews.com/article/columbia-protests-eric-adams-outsiders-5319fdf36599295a3840d77c69458b57

Her husband was arrested in 2003, jury failed to convict.

I don't necessarily buy her story that she was just happened to be in NYC, or just visited the encampment etc.

But the other details are a reminder that it is VERY easy for politicians, people in power, and the media to use headlines and vague statements to imply a much more sinister story than the truth.

I was going to stay out of this thread but yup.

You mean like our president saying 40 babies were decapitated that I continue to see repeated and shared?

[sonrisa]

May 2, 2024 13:38:18 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

May 2, 2024 11:14:20 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

True. Stepping out.


Locally, I'm seeing actions that only affect people who don't have relevant power. Asking for divestment from organizations that are barred by state law from divesting feels like that. 

Did you feel this way with the BLM protests happening in other parts of the country than the events that sparked them? Because I'm guessing that's a resounding, "No."

race based police brutality and mistreatment is a pervasive American problem - regardless of what specific incident or location is sparking action. So protests anywhere in the UiS is drawing attention to somewhere near where violence has previously occurred and may occur again.

However, I have a different (but related) reason to take back what I said. I oppose protest actions which directly target American Jews or Israelis living in the US. So stick with the college lawn encampments.

[basilosaurus]

Is Kent state so distant that we don't know about it? Or, more probably, did Florida ban teaching about kent?

Firing on students hasn't historically worked well for the feds

[AJL]

UT Austin (where I'm finishing my graduate degree) is another cluster-fuck of anti-1st amendment militaristic police response, initiated by the university president and backed by our shittoast of a governor. 

President Hartzell is having students arrested left and right for criminal trespassing to which our county attorney has said was simply unsustainable. She's refusing to carry the charges for most of the protestors arrested.

The newest lies coming from UT are that protestors were carrying weapons. But here's the thing: it's LEGAL for people to carry on UT's campus since 2015. So why is the university crying foul about that? Futher, protestors have said they've agreed to be searched by LEO and no weapons have been found. The university has publicly stated and insisted "that demonstrators had "guns, buckets of large rocks, bricks, steel-enforced wood planks, mallets and chains." Again, lies. None of it is true.

The presense of state troopers, univeristy PD, and APD on campus is terrfying and I hate it. Whatever my opinions on the Gaza/Israel war are, I'm a passionate supporter of the 1st amendment. Leave the fucking protestors alone. Let them protest. 

KUT articles --
UT Austin Says Protestors Carried Guns

Protestors Dispute UT Claims About Carrying Weapons

[fryjack2]

I firmly believe that the reason for the extreme reactions by the universities and police is because of the reason for the protests.

If it was a protest against something other than what is happening in Palestine, we would not have this thread.

Racist. Anti Arab. Anti Palestinian. Per usual.

*I am not dismissing the anti-Semitism that is being reported. I have no doubt that there is some of that fuckery happening as well and that should be addressed. Although, if someone is saying that chants of from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is a threat, I would argue that.

[Deleted]

May 2, 2024 14:46:43 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Is Kent state so distant that we don't know about it? Or, more probably, did Florida ban teaching about kent?

Firing on students hasn't historically worked well for the feds

Wait…did I miss someone calling in feds/national guard this week?

I don’t know if they’re still teaching about Kent State. I remember writing a research paper about it in APUSH (in 1997!). I’ll have to ask my students. We have deliberately not been wearing our military uniforms on campus this week because we don’t want anyone to mistakenly think that someone called in the national guard.

[AJL]

May 2, 2024 15:22:33 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I firmly believe that the reason for the extreme reactions by the universities and police is because of the reason for the protests.

If it was a protest against something other than what is happening in Palestine, we would not have this thread.

Racist. Anti Arab. Anti Palestinian. Per usual.

*I am not dismissing the anti-Semitism that is being reported. I have no doubt that there is some of that fuckery happening as well and that should be addressed. Although, if someone is saying that chants of from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is a threat, I would argue that.

It is very much this.

And yes, there is antisemitism, but I'm going to be honest: there is always antisemitism. That's not new. Has it ramped up since Oct. 8? Maybe. I think Jews who haven't been targets before are feeling what it's like to be more explicitly targeted. And that's obviously terrible, scary, and not ok. The protests in and of themselves are not antisemitic.

BUT these protests are being violently suppressed because of who it's for. You're totally right about that. 

[pixy0stix]

May 2, 2024 18:48:09 GMT -5 @villainv said:

May 2, 2024 14:46:43 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Is Kent state so distant that we don't know about it? Or, more probably, did Florida ban teaching about kent?

Firing on students hasn't historically worked well for the feds

Wait…did I miss someone calling in feds/national guard this week?

I don’t know if they’re still teaching about Kent State. I remember writing a research paper about it in APUSH (in 1997!). I’ll have to ask my students. We have deliberately not been wearing our military uniforms on campus this week because we don’t want anyone to mistakenly think that someone called in the national guard.

Several universities have been criticized by Congress people for not calling the national guard.

[jeaniebueller]

May 2, 2024 15:22:33 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I firmly believe that the reason for the extreme reactions by the universities and police is because of the reason for the protests.

If it was a protest against something other than what is happening in Palestine, we would not have this thread.

Racist. Anti Arab. Anti Palestinian. Per usual.

*I am not dismissing the anti-Semitism that is being reported. I have no doubt that there is some of that fuckery happening as well and that should be addressed. Although, if someone is saying that chants of from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is a threat, I would argue that.

Really? Didn't we see this during the BLM protests? Peaceful protests, a few bad actors and then police intervention? 

[fryjack2]

May 3, 2024 8:06:20 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

May 2, 2024 15:22:33 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I firmly believe that the reason for the extreme reactions by the universities and police is because of the reason for the protests.

If it was a protest against something other than what is happening in Palestine, we would not have this thread.

Racist. Anti Arab. Anti Palestinian. Per usual.

*I am not dismissing the anti-Semitism that is being reported. I have no doubt that there is some of that fuckery happening as well and that should be addressed. Although, if someone is saying that chants of from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is a threat, I would argue that.

Really? Didn't we see this during the BLM protests? Peaceful protests, a few bad actors and then police intervention? 

Sorry, to be clearer, if it was a white protest.

[wildrice]

May 3, 2024 8:06:20 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

May 2, 2024 15:22:33 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I firmly believe that the reason for the extreme reactions by the universities and police is because of the reason for the protests.

If it was a protest against something other than what is happening in Palestine, we would not have this thread.

Racist. Anti Arab. Anti Palestinian. Per usual.

*I am not dismissing the anti-Semitism that is being reported. I have no doubt that there is some of that fuckery happening as well and that should be addressed. Although, if someone is saying that chants of from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is a threat, I would argue that.

Really? Didn't we see this during the BLM protests? Peaceful protests, a few bad actors and then police intervention? 

I don't remember this being an issue on college campuses. Other places, yes.

I wish the bad actors would stay home. I'm really proud of college kids for DOING something and a college campus should be a very appropriate and safe place to be able to speak up. That's part of the point of college IMO. The general public protests that have been happening here and there don't seem to be making enough of an impact, so I'm glad young people are escalating their protest. 

Destroying property and threatening death for Zionists, absolutely not - but I don't believe for one second that that's the vast majority of what's happening. If the police want to go in and remove specific individuals who are doing those things I am not against that, but should be leaving everyone else alone. 

[laladypoet]

The genocide in Palestine is also an American problem. Our tax money funds it. We have Palestinian-American citizens. They are re-writing laws in America to say that criticizing Israel is antisemitic. I don’t see how you could possibly think this has nothing to do with us?

[sonrisa]

May 3, 2024 8:32:44 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The genocide in Palestine is also an American problem. Our tax money funds it. We have Palestinian-American citizens. They are re-writing laws in America to say that criticizing Israel is antisemitic. I don’t see how you could possibly think this has nothing to do with us?

i literally got smacked down for saying the protests should be directed at those who are in a relevant position of power - our possible next president, Congress, state legislators making those laws you mention. That's what started this. Me suggesting those same students could hop a subway to downtown if they wanted to impact those with greater power over American foreign policy.