College protests regarding Israel and Palestine

[pixy0stix]

May 3, 2024 10:39:08 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

May 3, 2024 8:32:44 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

The genocide in Palestine is also an American problem. Our tax money funds it. We have Palestinian-American citizens. They are re-writing laws in America to say that criticizing Israel is antisemitic. I don’t see how you could possibly think this has nothing to do with us?

i literally got smacked down for saying the protests should be directed at those who are in a relevant position of power - our possible next president, Congress, state legislators making those laws you mention. That's what started this. Me suggesting those same students could hop a subway to downtown if they wanted to impact those with greater power over American foreign policy.

They ARE protesting the right people. Most of the universities in the US are in some way shape or form tied to weapons manufacturing, defense, etc. So college students protesting where their tuition money goes, or what type of money is being accepted into the university system, is entirely appropriate. That's why the core message of these protests is divestment.

Shit like this drives me crazy. You are criticizing something without knowing their why, and you would actually probably support them if it wasn't being tied to this particular cause.

The what - wapo.st/44pyd1E

RE: Divestment from Lockheed as mentioned in the above article (opinion article 2022) - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/18/us-universities-are-pipelines-to-the-defense-industry-what-does-that-say-about-our-morals

RE: Divestment from weapons manufacturing - statement from Everytown for Gun Safety that lays it out simply: everytownsupportfund.org/gun-industry-stop-killing-us/college-and-university-divestment/

[fryjack2]

Boycotts work. Protesting in support of boycotts work.

To tie this to Israel, look at Sodastream. Originally set up shop in an illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank. Boycott followed. They moved out.

Every company that is contributing to the occupation and the genocide of Palestinians should be boycotted. And doing so should not be illegal. It’s madness that it’s illegal in the US to refuse
To do business with Israeli companies. I’m talking about the ones that fit the criteria of my last sentence.

I also know many companies contribute to shittiness happening. It’s one of those when you know better, you do better things for me. Find out a company is operating in the West Bank illegally? Don’t support them. Find out a company uses child labor for Pennies in India? Don’t support them. Shouldn’t be illegal.

[mrsslocombe]

Also, there are protests and marches almost every week (sometimes, daily) in NYC for Gaza. They just don't get covered often in media.

Even outside of the hullaboo thanks to the Trump Trial, it is much harder to do a sit in/encampment in lower Manhattan, due to the fallout from Occupy Wall St. That's why organized groups favor marches in that area, you can keep moving but you can't really stop for long.

[pixy0stix]

May 3, 2024 15:15:47 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Every company that is contributing to the occupation and the genocide of Palestinians should be boycotted. And doing so should not be illegal. It’s madness that it’s illegal in the US to refuse
To do business with Israeli companies. I’m talking about the ones that fit the criteria of my last sentence.

I also know many companies contribute to shittiness happening. It’s one of those when you know better, you do better things for me. Find out a company is operating in the West Bank illegally? Don’t support them. Find out a company uses child labor for Pennies in India? Don’t support them. Shouldn’t be illegal.

Are you talking about the new bill that passed the House? 

[pixy0stix]

Politico has compiled first hand accounts of student journalists who are observing/reporting the protests - www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/05/03/college-campus-protests-israel-gaza-student-journalists-00155672

[basilosaurus]

May 3, 2024 15:15:47 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Boycotts work. Protesting in support of boycotts work.

To tie this to Israel, look at Sodastream. Originally set up shop in an illegal Israeli settlement in the West Bank. Boycott followed. They moved out.

Every company that is contributing to the occupation and the genocide of Palestinians should be boycotted. And doing so should not be illegal. It’s madness that it’s illegal in the US to refuse
To do business with Israeli companies. I’m talking about the ones that fit the criteria of my last sentence.

I also know many companies contribute to shittiness happening. It’s one of those when you know better, you do better things for me. Find out a company is operating in the West Bank illegally? Don’t support them. Find out a company uses child labor for Pennies in India? Don’t support them. Shouldn’t be illegal.

They do and they don't. Since the start of this, there's been a mass boycott of starbucks and mcds in Malaysia. Did those companies change or go away? At some point the Malaysian government had to step in and say that starbucks in this country is Malay and Muslim owned with something like 90% muslim staff (that reflects the country) so probably stop with that boycott. The only result is maybe that's the reason why my McD has wonky and unreliable hours, but that could be for oh so many reasons.

People have boycotted walmart for years. They're still alive and well. Maybe it locally prevents them from moving into a neighborhood, but that's about it.

I'm feeling very defeatist about everything right now.

[Bad Dingo]

May 2, 2024 18:56:19 GMT -5 AJL said:

May 2, 2024 15:22:33 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I firmly believe that the reason for the extreme reactions by the universities and police is because of the reason for the protests.

If it was a protest against something other than what is happening in Palestine, we would not have this thread.

Racist. Anti Arab. Anti Palestinian. Per usual.

*I am not dismissing the anti-Semitism that is being reported. I have no doubt that there is some of that fuckery happening as well and that should be addressed. Although, if someone is saying that chants of from the river to the sea Palestine will be free is a threat, I would argue that.

It is very much this.

And yes, there is antisemitism, but I'm going to be honest: there is always antisemitism. That's not new. Has it ramped up since Oct. 8? Maybe. I think Jews who haven't been targets before are feeling what it's like to be more explicitly targeted. And that's obviously terrible, scary, and not ok. The protests in and of themselves are not antisemitic.

BUT these protests are being violently suppressed because of who it's for. You're totally right about that. 

Yes, antisemitism has increased since 10/8 and many Jews have experienced it both on a micro and macro level their whole lives. This board used to say - believe what the people who are experiencing the aggressions are saying, even if you don't understand stand it. But apparently not when it comes to Jews.

I'm all for protesting, calling in the police should only be a very last resort if buildings are being occupied or people are being attacked. Do I personally think that demanding universities to divest and cut all ties with Israeli academic institutions is the most effective way to expend their energy? No, I think these protests would be more effective if done in front of government buildings or politicians' residences. But that doesn't mean I don't support their right to do it.

[pixy0stix]

How Counterprotesters at U.C.L.A. Provoked Violence, Unchecked for Hours
www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/05/03/us/ucla-protests-encampment-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pU0.qN9M.FqVufUs1iUUI

[sonrisa]

May 3, 2024 18:41:14 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm feeling very defeatist about everything right now.

so am I.

In the most clear cut of these protests, Students are asking a University to ask a Hedgefund to stop investing in a Company in the hopes that the company will respond by stopping business in Israel, in hopes that Netanyahu will be swayed and change course on bombings and starvation.

It’s a convoluted long game tactic for a very dire and immediate situation.

I fear for the lives of the hostages *and* the lives of the residents of Gaza who are staving and dying from bombs. This is a horrific tragedy.

[AJL]

May 4, 2024 7:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

May 2, 2024 18:56:19 GMT -5 AJL said:

It is very much this.

And yes, there is antisemitism, but I'm going to be honest: there is always antisemitism. That's not new. Has it ramped up since Oct. 8? Maybe. I think Jews who haven't been targets before are feeling what it's like to be more explicitly targeted. And that's obviously terrible, scary, and not ok. The protests in and of themselves are not antisemitic.

BUT these protests are being violently suppressed because of who it's for. You're totally right about that. 

Yes, antisemitism has increased since 10/8 and many Jews have experienced it both on a micro and macro level their whole lives. This board used to say - believe what the people who are experiencing the aggressions are saying, even if you don't understand stand it. But apparently not when it comes to Jews.

I'm all for protesting, calling in the police should only be a very last resort if buildings are being occupied or people are being attacked. Do I personally think that demanding universities to divest and cut all ties with Israeli academic institutions is the most effective way to expend their energy? No, I think these protests would be more effective if done in front of government buildings or politicians' residences. But that doesn't mean I don't support their right to do it.

I’m a Jew. I can’t fucking win on this board. I have extremely complicated feelings about Gaza and Israel and using the word genocide and deciding what feels like antisemitism and what is clearly antisemitism and what is just feeling like a pariah in a lot of my circles.

If I don’t definitively say I’m pro-Palestine then I’m an evil Zionist who doesn’t care if babies live or die. If I say that I support Israel’s existence and want to see the region reach a peaceful and sustainable arrangement, then obviously I’m on the side of terrorists (or Zionist pigs depending on who I’m talking to). If I indicate that antisemitism has always been and will ALWAYS be something we’ll contend with, then I sound dismissive of Jews’ experience (which are also mine.) I support the protests because I support the 1st amendment. Period. I don’t really give a shit anymore about the causes or arguments on either side.

To fryjack2, I hope you’re hanging in there. I know how very hard this is for you and your family. Sending you lots of positive thoughts and my hopes for a quick and peaceful end to this horror.

I’m fucking tired. I’m seeing myself out on this topic again.

[Saudade]

I think we've been clear on this board that antisemitism is not acceptable, ever. None of us has condoned Hamas' actions either.

Let's look at the definition set forth by the UN, modified from Lemkin's original definition:

"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

-Killing members of the group;
-Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
-Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
-Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
-Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

At present time, Israel's government is committing all five of those points.

[erbear]

May 4, 2024 13:43:53 GMT -5 AJL said:

May 4, 2024 7:10:37 GMT -5 Bad Dingo said:

Yes, antisemitism has increased since 10/8 and many Jews have experienced it both on a micro and macro level their whole lives. This board used to say - believe what the people who are experiencing the aggressions are saying, even if you don't understand stand it. But apparently not when it comes to Jews.

I'm all for protesting, calling in the police should only be a very last resort if buildings are being occupied or people are being attacked. Do I personally think that demanding universities to divest and cut all ties with Israeli academic institutions is the most effective way to expend their energy? No, I think these protests would be more effective if done in front of government buildings or politicians' residences. But that doesn't mean I don't support their right to do it.

I’m a Jew. I can’t fucking win on this board. I have extremely complicated feelings about Gaza and Israel and using the word genocide and deciding what feels like antisemitism and what is clearly antisemitism and what is just feeling like a pariah in a lot of my circles.

If I don’t definitively say I’m pro-Palestine then I’m an evil Zionist who doesn’t care if babies live or die. If I say that I support Israel’s existence and want to see the region reach a peaceful and sustainable arrangement, then obviously I’m on the side of terrorists (or Zionist pigs depending on who I’m talking to). If I indicate that antisemitism has always been and will ALWAYS be something we’ll contend with, then I sound dismissive of Jews’ experience (which are also mine.) I support the protests because I support the 1st amendment. Period. I don’t really give a shit anymore about the causes or arguments on either side.

To fryjack2, I hope you’re hanging in there. I know how very hard this is for you and your family. Sending you lots of positive thoughts and my hopes for a quick and peaceful end to this horror.

I’m fucking tired. I’m seeing myself out on this topic again.

Friend speaks my mind ❤️

[msmerymac]

May 2, 2024 7:14:15 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

You may recall I live by Dartmouth; the students organized a peaceful protest last night and 90 students were arrested by the state police for creating an encampment on the green. The college called the state police to arrest them for having tents, which is against school policy, on the green.

This looks SO BAD for the college.

www.thedartmouth.com/article/2024/05/campus-encampments-live-updates-police-start-taking-students-away

My husband is a Dartmouth alum and there are times I think they don’t know how to respond to anything without looking bad.

[fryjack2]

I’m in Cape Town and promised myself I would not scroll the internet while in SA for the next two weeks. But here I am while I watch my kids swim.

A few things.

1. Bad Dingo has said a couple times that antisemitism is being dismissed on this board and I would like to respectfully ask where that has happened and to please point the instances out when they happen so that other can as well, or that people recognize it in the future if it’s not obvious. If your comment was referencing my comment about from the River to the Sea, I’ve explained that many times. What it means to my Palestinian family is what it was intended to mean when it first began being used by people my grandparents age. It’s does not mean get rid of Israel. It means let the people in Gaza and the West Bank have control over themselves. If I was a random White person saying it, i can see why a Jewish person would be offending since everything Palestine is being labeled antisemitic (ftrtts, ceasefire, free Palestine) and some people are saying that phase with end Israel as the intent. I will not agree that my relatives are antisemitic when they say it and will defend when they do. Is it also offensive when Netanyahu or people in Israel say the same thing but about Israel taking all the land? If the answer is no, Why not?

2. Israel just banned a news agency from reporting. Why is that? They already banned reporters from being in Gaza. Criticizing Israel’s actions is sometimes warranted and has nothing to do with religion.

3. Thank you AJL. There is a lot going on in my life related to Palestine that I have not shared on here that is heartbreaking. I can’t share for privacy reasons. I know this is hard on everyone who wishes for peace and the two people to live in harmony. And especially for Muslims and Jews who have had an increase in hate crime.

4. My tour guide today spoke about the country’s response to what’s going on in Gaza (I did not share that I am Palestinian. He thinks we are an American family) and how to paraphrase, when we see something we know and lived through, we feel morally obligated to speak up and try to prevent it from happening again to other people. I was glad for my sunglasses because that made me tear up big time.

[neverfstop]

Protests and walk-outs now in some high schools.....Congress is holding hearing & doing nothing productive

www.axios.com/2024/05/08/pro-palestinian-high-school-protests-students-gaza?

[fryjack2]

I’ve said from day 1 that Netanyahu’s intent was not to rid Palestine of Hamas, but to kill or remove all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank and take over the land. He has said so much repeatedly. Hamas is just an excuse to do so.

And is proving he does not care one bit about innocent people. Whether that be Palestinians or aid workers.

Millions of people all over the world protesting and marching and boycotting and camping out on campuses are alllllllll anti-Semitic? Millions and millions of them? Many of whom probably don’t give a shit whatsoever about religion? Or even about the land?

Or maybe they are opposing occupying another people, trapping and starving another people, committing war crime, bombing innocent people, killing aid workers, killing over 15k children, killing 35 thousand people, injuring hundreds of thousands of others, destroying every university and hospital, blocking exits, blocking aid, demanding unrealistic evacuations and bombing people who are essentially sitting ducks, their tax dollars supporting the bombing, their governments supporting the maniacal war criminal piece of shit Netanyahu.

Governments and institutions don't listen to its people until drastic things happen. As history has shown us over and over.

People who are still blindly supporting Israel and have no problem with the illegal atrocities they are committing and are unable to criticize what should be criticized, have an, “until all hostages are home” yard sign that have popped up in the last couple of months all over my town are astounding to me. My thoughts on that are not antisemitism.

[erbear]

May 9, 2024 2:28:18 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

I’ve said from day 1 that Netanyahu’s intent was not to rid Palestine of Hamas, but to kill or remove all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank and take over the land. He has said so much repeatedly. Hamas is just an excuse to do so.

And is proving he does not care one bit about innocent people. Whether that be Palestinians or aid workers.

Millions of people all over the world protesting and marching and boycotting and camping out on campuses are alllllllll anti-Semitic? Millions and millions of them? Many of whom probably don’t give a shit whatsoever about religion? Or even about the land?

Or maybe they are opposing occupying another people, trapping and starving another people, committing war crime, bombing innocent people, killing aid workers, killing over 15k children, killing 35 thousand people, injuring hundreds of thousands of others, destroying every university and hospital, blocking exits, blocking aid, demanding unrealistic evacuations and bombing people who are essentially sitting ducks, their tax dollars supporting the bombing, their governments supporting the maniacal war criminal piece of shit Netanyahu.

Governments and institutions don't listen to its people until drastic things happen. As history has shown us over and over.

People who are still blindly supporting Israel and have no problem with the illegal atrocities they are committing and are unable to criticize what should be criticized, have an, “until all hostages are home” yard sign that have popped up in the last couple of months all over my town are astounding to me. My thoughts on that are not antisemitism.

I don’t think there’s a single person on here who is doing this. I am certainly not blindly supporting Israel; in fact, I have vocally and publicly (in my real life and on this board) condemned Netanyahu and the atrocities his government is engaging in on the regular. This isn’t war; it’s genocide and I see this quite clearly. I support the protestors and I have been part of the protests. And, as a Jewish American whose family fled the Holocaust, the casual and intentional antisemitism I have experienced in the last few months is scary and intimidating. It makes me fearful to be part of the protests — hearing people advocate for violence against me (even if they don’t know they are doing it, is terrifying. I’m always monitoring how quickly the rhetoric is changing. It’s jarring to be a Jewish person protesting Israel — we are fighting a lifetime of an “us against the world” mentality in some ways. I don’t know if that makes sense — I’m having trouble putting the feeling I keep experiencing into words.

I’m praying for a peaceful resolution to this. The death toll is staggering and shameful. People have a right to live in peace. I’m so discouraged that we’ll never know that.



Apologies if this doesn’t make a ton of sense — this has been a difficult week for me for other reasons.

[underwaterrhymes]

((AJL)) ((fryjack2)) ((erbear)) ((Bad Dingo))

This is terrible and hard on so many levels.

[basilosaurus]

fryjack2, I live in a place that's extremely pro-Palestinian (there were flags years ago. Currently schools have massive flags and write it out in their yards), and I do think there's a fair amount of anti Jewish sentiment (for instance it's illegal to even write yiddish but friends keep asking me to teach them). So, I'm not sure I'd say protests everywhere are reflective of any single sentiment.

Locally, I've seen pro-Palestine simply out of solidarity with the religion. I've heard weird statements about it's only a land grab and no religion is involved. There are boycotts against McD, starbucks, KFC, and I do not understand the language well enough to understand why, but it blasts my fb groups.I've been told it's more an anti-American thing than anything related to the conflict. This gave them that opportunity.

I'm very much on the side of Pelistinians and consider it a genocide. I just want to share that there is still an anti-Jewish sentiment in these international protests. I don't agree with it of course, but I live with it. I will say that the individuals I meet do want to understand and ask me, a non-Jewish but American who grew up in that community, they do truly want to understand. But, that's the people I meet which is obviously curated.

I hope I've expressed myself correctly

[fryjack2]

erbear. Sending you virtual support. I know (from my Jewish friends and seeing everything happening and reading) it’s even harder to be Jewish right now for the reasons you shared.

Sorry that my post implied that people on this board fit into what I wrote. I agree with you that that is not the case. In my town, there are a lot of vocal people who do fit.

I’m guessing we share many of the same feelings of fear and despair And hopelessness.

[erbear]

May 9, 2024 16:01:34 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

erbear . Sending you virtual support. I know (from my Jewish friends and seeing everything happening and reading) it’s even harder to be Jewish right now for the reasons you shared.

Sorry that my post implied that people on this board fit into what I wrote. I agree with you that that is not the case. In my town, there are a lot of vocal people who do fit.

I’m guessing we share many of the same feelings of fear and despair And hopelessness.

I continue to read your posts and feel for you. No need to apologize. It's a shit situation for many many of us <3