Using they/them pronouns & grammar rules

[wanderingback]

Sorry didn’t know what to title this.

I generally try to use non-gendered language/pronouns as much as possible in the work I do (pregnant person, they, etc).

Because of that in my personal life I also use they a lot if I don’t know someone’s gender. I’ve noticed it more because it comes up with conversation with my daughter where I’m more conscious of my words. So for example yesterday a really sweet teen at the playground let her play with their basketball, so I said "that was really nice that they shared, can you say thank you."

So anyway, 2 questions-
Do you generally use non gendered language?
And are grammar rules changing? As in, will our kids learn that they is a singular pronoun and their writing be more reflective of that? (I guess this is more a question for teachers)

[picksthemusic]

Since I started in public health, I have noticed a vast shift away from gendered language and people announcing their pronouns at the beginning of meetings/webinars and such. It's actually really nice to see, making it normal and part of the culture. When I saw patients more often, I would say things like 'folks', 'friends', 'y'all', 'everyone', depending on who I was addressing. I try to use the same language in front of the kids so they get used to it, too, and we talk often about respecting people's gender identity and calling people what they want to be called, pronoun or preferred name.

Not a teacher, though, so not sure how grammar will pan out. But it seems as though at least our district is pretty open about respecting gender identity and using pronouns that people align with for most cases.

[mala]

If it's someone who's gender isn't obvious I'll use non-gendered language. I do recognize that this does make assumptions based on physical appearance that may be incorrect if they look more traditionally male or female. If I spot a pronoun pin or a non-binary flag I'll use whatever pronouns are appropriate or non-gendered language until corrected. I notice them much more now than a few years ago, both because they're more common and because I'm looking for them. Big Kid's Best Friend who is also the youngest child of my closest friends is non-binary and it has made me very conscientious of gender indicators.

Grammar rules are always changing. It feels more natural now to use they/them than it did just a few years ago. I am also trying to get Little Kid to recognize they/them. Best Friend is the only one in our circle who uses they/them and I have corrected Little Kid on their pronouns for literally years, but it wasn't until now in Kindergarten that she finally is consistently using they/them for Best Friend. My hope is that she (Little Kid) never feels uncomfortable using they/them appropriately.

EDIT: I'll also add that I made a very deliberate choice to not use gendered language in my business.

[bex1973]

I would say 90% I use non gendered pronouns. But, to be fair, I work in higher ed and that has thankfully become our default on my campus so I am able to practice it regularly.

I don't know about the grammar. I hope so but IDK.

[erbear]

Interesting question and one I've thought about a lot since I work with teenagers and many of my students are gender non-binary or trans.

I use non-gendered language when 1) someone's pronouns have not be made clear to me and it's not a situation where I can ask, and 2) when I am speaking to or about a group of mixed gender people. I use gendered pronouns when I know someone's pronouns; I teach with a man who uses "they" for everyone and it bothers my female-identifying students -- they feel like he is misgendering them (they are "she" and not "they").

[mrsslocombe]

In instances like your post, yes I generally use gender neutral terms.

FYI singular "they" has existed for hundreds of years in English as "proper" grammar and most people use it all the time without realizing it.

[waverly]

In the situation you are describing I would avoid pronouns. "That is so nice, say thank you!"

I generally use preferred pronouns or try to avoid pronounds. I might say woman/ man if someone was across the parking lot and I needed to describe them.

There may be informal changes in grammar, but I haven't seen anything formal yet.

[bex1973]

May 7, 2024 13:15:07 GMT -5 erbear said:

Interesting question and one I've thought about a lot since I work with teenagers and many of my students are gender non-binary or trans.

I use non-gendered language when 1) someone's pronouns have not be made clear to me and it's not a situation where I can ask, and 2) when I am speaking to or about a group of mixed gender people. I use gendered pronouns when I know someone's pronouns; I teach with a man who uses "they" for everyone and it bothers my female-identifying students -- they feel like he is misgendering them (they are "she" and not "they").

This is point that I've thought about and have gone back and forth on myself.  If someone has made their pronouns known to me then I will use them but my default is typically they.  I'll also use the occasional "friends" when talking directly to them.

[ellipses84]

Yes I use nongendered terms if it’s someone I don’t know, especially if they are younger and that’s how I refer to them to my kids.

I do think conventional grammar standards are changing and will officially change soon. That’s how languages have always evolved.

[AdaraMarie]

There are some times when the brain/mouth can't keep up and we laugh like when this kid was coming back from spring break and I asked "when does them get back?" We had been discussing "them" and my brain couldn't think of the right word before it came out.

I don't know that it is a thing that they will need to have explicitly taught much because it seems to be in the air.

[erbear]

May 7, 2024 13:21:51 GMT -5 bex1973 said:

May 7, 2024 13:15:07 GMT -5 erbear said:

Interesting question and one I've thought about a lot since I work with teenagers and many of my students are gender non-binary or trans.

I use non-gendered language when 1) someone's pronouns have not be made clear to me and it's not a situation where I can ask, and 2) when I am speaking to or about a group of mixed gender people. I use gendered pronouns when I know someone's pronouns; I teach with a man who uses "they" for everyone and it bothers my female-identifying students -- they feel like he is misgendering them (they are "she" and not "they").

This is point that I've thought about and have gone back and forth on myself.  If someone has made their pronouns known to me then I will use them but my default is typically they.  I'll also use the occasional "friends" when talking directly to them.

When I address a group, I use gender neutral nouns (folks, friends, puppies, whatever) but not singular pronouns (unless I really don't know and don't have a way to find out)

[sonrisa]

I use nongendered language when speaking about someone if I don’t know their gender, or a hypothetical person, or an undefined person. In the case of not knowing with a specific person, I sometimes steer away from pronouns entirely (including they/them). It’s not that one can’t use ‘they’ generically (that is fine), but it has a meaning as a singular personal pronoun.

On how grammar is taught - I think this depends on the school. My children’s school hasn’t changed their curriculum but I know kids who attend schools that have more inclusive grammar lessons. However, it’s worth remembering the singular ‘they’ predates the singular ‘you’ (Shakespeare used the singular they occasionally but would never have replaced thou with you). we are really just reincorporating and old idea.

[sonrisa]

May 7, 2024 13:15:07 GMT -5 erbear said:

I teach with a man who uses "they" for everyone and it bothers …

I have found some adults do this as a lazy hack to get around fully acknowledging trans kids. And those kids can feel it.

[shauni27]

Great questions and I love most of the answers.

My sister is queer and has had many non-binary friends for decades, so I started using they/them probably 15 years ago. It was a hard switch to make at first but now it is second nature and I correct people regularly in a professional and personal setting.

however, with S being 6, he sees things as very black or white and I found myself reverting back a bit more to he/she rather than they them. This year he happens to have a gender non-conforming classmate that he is friends with so we have talked in a lot of detail about using they/them. it really helps him to have "sarah who is a boy" to understand the concepts. It does not bother him or seem odd to him what so ever that sarah was a "she" and is now a "he or a them" but when thinking big picture he struggles a little more.

I know at work (also in healthcare) we see a huge trend in using nongendered language, thank goodness.

[Jalapeñomel]

I use y’all all the time.

I use non gendered pronouns, because I work with teenagers and it also seems like the right thing to do if I don’t know.

[rhian]

I try to use nongendered language about people I don't know, especially to my toddler to model it and normalize it for him (e.g. What are those big kids doing? Look at that person running over there!), but I admit I do sometimes slip into gendered language when people present in typical gendered ways. I'm trying to be more conscious of it.

When I teach my college students about issues of gender, I remind them that the singular "they" is something that we all often use when we don't know the gender of someone, and isn't "new" with more openly non-binary people. E.g. a conversation might go, "I have to pick up my cousin from the airport tonight." "Oh, what time do they arrive?"

My son's daycare explicitly requests that teachers are referred to just by first name rather than Ms./Mr. First Name, as is common at many daycares, to be gender inclusive. So hopefully assumptions and norms will change over time, though as always, I'm sure it will be uneven and inconsistent.

[VillainV]

I try to use names, titles, or other nouns as much as possible. After all, a pronoun just replaces a noun, so you can always just use the noun. “Sammy said” instead of “they said” or “tell your friend I said thank you” instead of “tell them.” If I know someone’s pronouns, I use them. If I don’t, I’ll use they/them or gender neutral terms.

[circa1978]

I'm a writer and find the grammar argument about they/them plural/singular pointless (not that I'm saying you are silly for asking/considering it) because grammer and language constantly evolves, and generally context makes it easy to understand "they" is being used as a singular.

Ex:
"If a student needs help, he or she should ask for it" becomes "If a student needs help, they should ask for it." If further clarification is needed, it can be added, but I find it rarely comes up. Children, especially, roll with it, in my experience.

[dontlook]

May 7, 2024 17:38:45 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

I'm a writer and find the grammar argument about they/them plural/singular pointless (not that I'm saying you are silly for asking/considering it) because grammer and language constantly evolves, and generally context makes it easy to understand "they" is being used as a singular.

Ex:
"If a student needs help, he or she should ask for it" becomes "If a student needs help, they should ask for it." If further clarification is needed, it can be added, but I find it rarely comes up. Children, especially, roll with it, in my experience.

Please don’t flame me-
I think the grammar part is interesting. I will admit when I first stated reading They for a single person it really threw me. I read an entire People magazine article about a singer and didn’t understand they were talking about a single person until I got to the end. I’ve come across it so much more in the last year and now it’s not a thing in my mind (as in I catch up quicker/less confused).

I try to use gender neutral language. I default to “friend”’when dealing with kids most often. I also encourage my kids to ask names of new playmates so I can just address them by name.

[deadwing]

I do my best to default to non-gendered language. I don't want to make assumptions about people I don't know. Every once in awhile a "sir" or "ma'am" slips out and I die a little inside because most people don't want to be addressed that way and it's gendered.

[agnes]

I swear I had a teacher in elementary school who told us to use they/them in the singular when you don’t know the gender. I’ve been doing it practically my whole life.

[wanderingback]

May 7, 2024 17:38:45 GMT -5 circa1978 said:

I'm a writer and find the grammar argument about they/them plural/singular pointless (not that I'm saying you are silly for asking/considering it) because grammer and language constantly evolves, and generally context makes it easy to understand "they" is being used as a singular.

Ex:
"If a student needs help, he or she should ask for it" becomes "If a student needs help, they should ask for it." If further clarification is needed, it can be added, but I find it rarely comes up. Children, especially, roll with it, in my experience.

Oh yes i understand it constantly evolves that’s why I was asking the question.

For example, I think when I was growing up it would be taught to write. "Sally likes the color red. She is going to buy a new red dress." And if I were to write ”Sally likes the color red. They are going to buy a new red dress." It might have been seen as incorrect since Sally is 1 person and using they when I was in elementary school would’ve indicated more than 1 person in this example.

However, I have a bad memory so maybe I’m not remembering correctly but I don’t think I was taught to use they in the above example and would’ve been taught to use she.

[sadlebred]

I use non-gendered pronouns unless I know the person or know the person uses gendered pronouns. I come across this mostly at work because I deal with so many people. For example Stacy/Tracy/Kiran/Morgan could be male, female, non-binary. When talking about a group of people I also use ya'll, everyone, folks, "the group of teapot enthusiasts," etc. You never really know.

[wanderingback]

Oh yes, speaking of mistakes. Someone asked me to write a letter of support recently. Their name is a sterotypical very feminine name. I made the mistake of using she in the letter. They asked me to correct it to use they. I apologized for my mistake.

So lesson learned in regards to writing. Def ask the person their pronouns. Or I’m guessing with these "new rules" you can default to they or use their name only (I know a few people whose pronouns are their name only).

[glw]

I do try to always use they/them, especially at work where we have a lot of first names that I'm not familiar with.

The one I struggle with face-to-face is what to use to get a stranger's attention instead of miss/ma'am/sir. Like, "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet!" I often default to "Hon" because I'm in MD, but I know not everyone likes that.

[bex1973]

May 8, 2024 11:01:27 GMT -5 glw said:

I do try to always use they/them, especially at work where we have a lot of first names that I'm not familiar with.

The one I struggle with face-to-face is what to use to get a stranger's attention instead of miss/ma'am/sir. Like, "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet!" I often default to "Hon" because I'm in MD, but I know not everyone likes that.

Genuine question - not snark: Can't you just say "excuse me you dropped your wallet"? Like I get the nicety desire but it's not needed IMO

[glw]

May 8, 2024 11:15:28 GMT -5 bex1973 said:

May 8, 2024 11:01:27 GMT -5 glw said:

I do try to always use they/them, especially at work where we have a lot of first names that I'm not familiar with.

The one I struggle with face-to-face is what to use to get a stranger's attention instead of miss/ma'am/sir. Like, "Excuse me sir, you dropped your wallet!" I often default to "Hon" because I'm in MD, but I know not everyone likes that.

Genuine question - not snark: Can't you just say "excuse me you dropped your wallet"? Like I get the nicety desire but it's not needed IMO

Oh definitely! My ingrained manners just really want to put an honorific there and it makes me stumble.

[quesyrah]

I try to use non gendered pronouns. I had once situation where someone snappily said, “I’m a SHE.” So I got nervous for awhile
and tried to not use any pronouns at all. That felt super awkward because it seemed obvious that I wasn’t sure what pronouns to use.

[Captain Serious]

I write policy for my state, and we have transitioned to using they as a singular pronoun in our style guide.

[wanderingback]

May 8, 2024 12:08:46 GMT -5 quesyrah said:

I try to use non gendered pronouns. I had once situation where someone snappily said, “I’m a SHE.” So I got nervous for awhile
and tried to not use any pronouns at all. That felt super awkward because it seemed obvious that I wasn’t sure what pronouns to use.

Yes there are some people who have strong preferences. I’ve had a few trans gender people say they also didn’t like sharing their pronouns. Like in situations during group meetings they didn’t like the "demand" to intro yourself with your pronouns. So yes, it is definitely hard to be correct 100% of the time and people certainly do have preferences that we can get wrong.