Traffic enforcement decline

[pixy0stix]

Traffic Enforcement Dwindled in the Pandemic. In Many Places, It Hasn’t Come Back.

Gift link - www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/07/29/upshot/traffic-enforcement-dwindled.html?unlocked_article_code=1.-00.S9jK.MtFjWZsFEXVT&smid=url-share

This article goes into all the things about the decline in traffic enforcement: police response (misconduct & fear because the stops are the most dangerous thing they do), breakdown of social construct, etc.

Personally, I just want people to stop running stop signs. They're big and red, just stop your car.

[abs]

Stop at stop signs.

Don’t ride the bumper of the car in front of you.

Above all put down the effing phone.

We are all so angry post 2020. Simple driving adjustments could help.

[pixy0stix]

Jul 29, 2024 9:42:28 GMT -5 abs said:

Above all put down the effing phone.

The amount of times I've missed being able to do a left turn on a green light because someone was fucking around on their phone...

[mrsukyankee]

We're seeing it here as well. This weekend, a woman was pretty much run over while on a pedestrian crossing. Today, I was about to step onto a pedestrian crossing and a car went straight through it - they are meant to stop or slow down if they see someone going onto it. I yelled at them. People are just not willing to do anything to help others (not everyone, but a lot of drivers).

[basilosaurus]

Jul 29, 2024 9:55:53 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

We're seeing it here as well. This weekend, a woman was pretty much run over while on a pedestrian crossing. Today, I was about to step onto a pedestrian crossing and a car went straight through it - they are meant to stop or slow down if they see someone going onto it. I yelled at them. People are just not willing to do anything to help others (not everyone, but a lot of drivers).

Same here. It's a global thing. In my last few years of countries I think only Singapore escapes the trend for obvious police state reasons. Probably Japan, too, because they're super rule followers, but I haven't been in awhile.

Traffic enforcement was never strong here to put it very mildly. But I've definitely noticed people filming or scrolling whille driving motorbikes more frequently. Of course without helmets and probably with a small child or two on board. Or maybe I'm looking out for it more. Dog knows I need to be vigilent.

Early pandemic days we had military checkpoints and pretty strict limits on movement, so I think people were more compliant. They still have occasional dui checkpoints, but the coconut telegraph announces location within minutes, so people know ways around, and certainly there's a cavalier attitude toward drink driving. 

A friend of a friend who was visiting drove my car from the other side of the island where I'd had to leave it for repairs. She filmed it. This is a road like any other, nothing special or interesting. She didn't even go the route that has monkeys and incredible views. With turnoffs for photographs. Just a road. I could at least understand wanting to film monkeys and breathtaking vistas.

Given local penchance for motorbikes to pass on both sides and for them to drive the wrong way in what only generously can be described as a shoulder or sidewalk, it requires all my wits.

I don't understand people. I never thought I'd see the day when I'd be desiring more police. They don't even have to fear guns here!

[wawa]

ALSO SLOW DOWN.  Like, you.  Personally.  Reading this.  Take pride in annoying people behind you by going the speed limit.  Save your lead foot for limited access highways if you must speed.  Anywhere that people could be on foot or bike or getting off a bus or trying to pull out of a side street....slow down. You can't react as fast as you think you can and you're not seeing as much as you think you do.

I'm a fan of pushing automated enforcement for stop signs, speeding and red lights for exactly this reason.
We don't actually need cops to pull people over with all the inherent bias and danger for both parties simple things like running a stop sign. The camera can see you do it. Send the ticket. Maybe you actually stop next time. Hard part is deciding which stop signs get cameras, and that many jurisdictions require legislative action before they can go this route as mentioned in the article, but let's get to it. Also news flash for the libertarians concerned about the surveillance state - we've been using cameras instead of ground loops for signal detection for many many years.  "They" can already see you.  

The downside being that monetary based penalties are hugely regressive, and if you go by highest crash locations you're often going to put them all in poor black neighborhoods (see DC), etc, but the short version of my conflicted take on the disparate impact issue is that it's just as easy for poor people to stop for a red light or stop sign as it is for a rich person. So like...stop? And then the cost doesn't matter? And a lot more poor black, hispanic and native folks are dying after being hit by cars than rich white ones, so if it's harder for their neighbors to pay fines I think that's probably worth it to me if it means less people dying. (would also be a fan of the sliding scale model of fines a la Finland et al., but even without it the benefit still outweighs the cost to me)  

really appreciate that this article also covered the underlying infrastructure issues 

Many peer European and Asian countries have reduced fatalities by designing roads that discourage speeding and protect pedestrians and cyclists, while deploying cameras more widely.



The U.S. in essence uses the police to make up for not doing those things.

YUP.  We're totally failing at using the police to make up for not doing those things btw.  Our crash rates compared to peer countries are GROSS.

[pixy0stix]

wawa, AND we need to get more cars off the road.

[wanderingback]

I didn’t get to finish the article yet but what’s going on in San Jose that it’s an outlier that road deaths have decreased?

I was actually going to bring up traffic/pedestrian deaths again because this past week I had to rent a car twice. I am not victim blaming but the amount of people on foot and electric bikes and scooters that would just walk in the middle of the road or cut in front of me while I was driving was maddening. So it seems that not only do drivers have road rage but pedestrians/electric bike and scooter riders seem to be in a hurry/don’t care about following pedestrian rules either.

Seems like a recipe for disaster.

[pixy0stix]

Jul 29, 2024 10:32:42 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I didn’t get to finish the article yet but what’s going on in San Jose that it’s an outlier that road deaths have decreased?

They started with pretty horrific stats, but since 2020 they've invested a LOT into improving infrastructure - sanjosespotlight.com/san-jose-preps-plan-to-reach-zero-traffic-pedestrian-fatalities-deaths/

So a combination of "nowhere left to go but up" and hard work.

[picksthemusic]

There is a local city here that invested a ton of money into traffic light cameras and it greatly reduces the amount of people who run red lights and such. Basically the city was like 'Smile, you're on candid camera! Enjoy the $150 fine for running the light!'

[loira]

Jul 29, 2024 9:55:01 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 29, 2024 9:42:28 GMT -5 abs said:

Above all put down the effing phone.

The amount of times I've missed being able to do a left turn on a green light because someone was fucking around on their phone...

Doing anything with your phone while driving is highly illegal in BC and will result in a hefty ticket. I haven't seen a decrease in enforcement since the pandemic. If anything, police seem to be out MORE to recoup revenue they lost when no one was speeding in 2020-2022. Police here have been known to ride around on city buses peering into cars driving along and ticketing anyone on their phone. My sister's partner once got a ticket just for having his phone out (but off) in his cup holder. It's still legal with a hands-free setup I think.

[tacokick]

Cops here are stopping people less (64%!) and our road deaths are down 10%!

Many neighborhoods have been getting “road diets” to change larger streets to two lanes, adding bike lanes, more medians with trees, clearer signage and bollards and I think it is working.

It’s odd they didn’t look into it for the article since it’s a clear outlier.

[cap]

I get so freaking angry at a lot of what I see people doing and YES to not being able to get through lights because of people playing on their phones. If I'm second car in line behind someone who is sitting at a green light, I honk. I also get mad at the person who is second in line if they're not honking when the first car is sitting.

I would also like to see a lot more red light cameras - it's gotten a lot worse lately, it seems.

@@@@@
I go through an intersection each morning on my way to work that has a lot of kids biking and walking to school, and the number of people that run the red there is a massive safety issue for the kids. It's especially bad b/c I'm in Michigan, and it's still dark or not yet fully light for quite a bit of the school year.

[Velar Fricative]

I have to a lot to say about this but yeah, it’s bad. First I’ll be good and read the article.

[mrsukyankee]

My road is BEGGING our local council to put in speed humps - we are on a narrow road with lots of kids, pets and elderly and people drive around 40 mph on what is meant to be 20mph. It would help so much, especially as it's a cut through between two major roads.

[Velar Fricative]

So, I think ultimately it does boil down to the disappearance of our social contract. That seems to be the thing that ties every locality together.

NYC has had red light and speed cameras basically everywhere for a long time now. But, people just don’t pay the violations…that is, if they get the violation in the mail. Because plenty of speeders just cover their plates now, or use fake paper ones, so they can get away with not getting violations.

These same drivers also don’t pay tolls, but it seems like there’s finally some level of enforcement recently where police are doing checkpoints on bridges and impounding vehicles with THOUSANDS of dollars in unpaid fines and tolls. But, I’m sure they’ll just get another car and do the same thing.

Also, cops themselves are often the ones breaking traffic laws and they certainly won’t police themselves.

The lack of social contract just permeates everywhere. People are recklessly using unregistered mopeds and e-bikes now, injuring and killing more people. I take the bus to work and car drivers love to be assholes and block or drive in the bus lanes (there is supposedly a camera on every bus now to catch them, but ergo, the plates of the cars need to be legit). Even among non-drivers, I’ll take a bus and realize I’m one of the few people who paid the fare. People just no longer give a fuck about anyone else and I’m not sure how to overcome that, because more people are realizing they just…don’t have to follow rules or laws. Pedestrians aren’t perfect but I’ll always put more responsibility on the people operating what are basically deadly weapons.

But, I agree design should be much better and I wish it was.

[pixy0stix]

Jul 29, 2024 15:46:08 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

NYC has had red light and speed cameras basically everywhere for a long time now. But, people just don’t pay the violations…that is, if they get the violation in the mail. Because plenty of speeders just cover their plates now, or use fake paper ones, so they can get away with not getting violations.

This reminds me that I saw someone with a temp paper plate that expired in October last week. How does that even happen?

[redheadbaker]

Philly PD is having a tantrum because of the Driving Equity Act. They're not supposed to pull over drivers if the primary violation is one of the following:
- Late registration (if under 60 days late)
- Relocation of temporary registration (must be visible)
- Hanging license plate (must be fastened)
- Missing a single headlight or taillight
- Items hanging from a rearview mirror
- Minor bumper damage
- Driving with an expired or missing inspection sticker
- Driving with an expired or missing registration sticker

They challenged the law and lost, so they're just not pulling anyone over. 

[Velar Fricative]

Jul 29, 2024 16:00:39 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 29, 2024 15:46:08 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

NYC has had red light and speed cameras basically everywhere for a long time now. But, people just don’t pay the violations…that is, if they get the violation in the mail. Because plenty of speeders just cover their plates now, or use fake paper ones, so they can get away with not getting violations.

This reminds me that I saw someone with a temp paper plate that expired in October last week. How does that even happen?

It doesn’t unless it’s fake. I’m pretty sure legit ones only give you about 2-3 weeks here after you get a new car. But I see tons of paper plates even with reasonable dates, so I don’t know if there are just that many people buying cars now or if they’re mostly fake. But it’s definitely a problem.

[jlt19]

St. Louis had red light cameras but someone sued them or something and they’re no more.

The big thing now is to go hard after people with expired temp tags. So much so, that the police have asked the public to call and report them. Maybe people wouldn’t have expired tags if you didn’t require sales tax be paid in less than a month in order to get plates? Or at the very least let people roll the costs into their financing. But sure, let’s ask citizens to help fine each other. Great idea!

[pixy0stix]

Jul 29, 2024 20:19:57 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

St. Louis had red light cameras but someone sued them or something and they’re no more.

The big thing now is to go hard after people with expired temp tags. So much so, that the police have asked the public to call and report them. Maybe people wouldn’t have expired tags if you didn’t require sales tax be paid in less than a month in order to get plates? Or at the very least let people roll the costs into their financing. But sure, let’s ask citizens to help fine each other. Great idea!

Uh, people should be figuring tax as part of the buying cost. Is this one of the financial things like how to write a check that needs to be included for adults?

[audette]

Jul 29, 2024 9:38:50 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Traffic Enforcement Dwindled in the Pandemic. In Many Places, It Hasn’t Come Back.

Gift link - www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/07/29/upshot/traffic-enforcement-dwindled.html?unlocked_article_code=1.-00.S9jK.MtFjWZsFEXVT&smid=url-share

This article goes into all the things about the decline in traffic enforcement: police response (misconduct & fear because the stops are the most dangerous thing they do), breakdown of social construct, etc.

Personally, I just want people to stop running stop signs. They're big and red, just stop your car.

I was honked at for stopping at a stop sign near home last week.  I pointed at the sign to my right, and the driver must have been somewhat abashed, because they came to a full stop after I completed my turn.

[sillygoosegirl]

At least 5 times in the last 6 months I've been nearly hit crossing an intersection *with the light* on foot or on my bike by someone running a red. And I don't mean people late into the intersection on a yellow, that I see every single day to the extent that it's almost an oddity if the walking man is still showing when the cross traffic has finally come to a fucking stop. Which, unless they've changed the timing on the lights, is also way worse than it used to be. Running red lights didn't used to be such a common occurrence where I live. I don't recall hardly ever seeing people blow through red lights like they weren't even there before the pandemic (occassionally, yes, but it was rare and noteworthy). It's absolutely terrifying out there. People are driving like the traffic laws are just suggestions, and frankly, if there's no enforcement, they kinda are just suggestions.

I'm really annoyed at Vision Zero turning away from enforcement. Yeah, it's certainly true that we need better engineered streets, but the best we can get engineering-wise around here is some paint and maybe the occassional lead time on a walk signal or a HAWK, but if people are blowing through red lights like they aren't even there, what do these engineering improvements actually do? Nothing but provide me a false sense of security, as far as I can tell. I realize there are far better ways to engineer traffic safety than that, but I cannot get the people in charge around here to see it. And I don't understand dropping enforcement in an environment where our roads are still so dangerous.

I see a lot of people saying desire for more racial justice is the reason for dropping enforcement, but that seems terribly misguided to me, if it is even really the reason. It seems like we've traded a crisis of racially discriminatory traffic stops for a crisis of rising traffic deaths which also disproportionately impacts people of color. One systemic racial injustice for another. We need real solutions. Including non-racist ways of doing traffic enforcement, in addition to engineering for safety over speed.

[basilosaurus]

Jul 29, 2024 10:32:42 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I didn’t get to finish the article yet but what’s going on in San Jose that it’s an outlier that road deaths have decreased?

I was actually going to bring up traffic/pedestrian deaths again because this past week I had to rent a car twice. I am not victim blaming but the amount of people on foot and electric bikes and scooters that would just walk in the middle of the road or cut in front of me while I was driving was maddening. So it seems that not only do drivers have road rage but pedestrians/electric bike and scooter riders seem to be in a hurry/don’t care about following pedestrian rules either.

Seems like a recipe for disaster.

The number of people totally oblivious to the world because their focus is 100% on their phones is astounding. At least they're not operating a 2 ton death machine. At least they're only mostly putting themselves at risk physically. However, there would be major collateral fallout should a driver hit and hurt or kill them through no fault of their own.

[aurora]

I used one of those pedestrian red light crossings the other day - the kind where the is a traffic signal that goes yellow - red when I press the button but there is no intersection.

The first car slowed and stopped for us (thanks!), then proceeded through while the light was still red. The second didn't even slow down. For a bright red stop light. (This is not one of those flashing lights where you can go once the pedestrians are through. You need to wait for green. Just like any intersection with traffic lights.)

Pay attention to traffic signals!

[missva]

I've had 2 cars totaled since the pandemic, both from illegal (license revoked, no insurance) or distracted (teenager on phone) drivers, so this hits home. I am so glad to WFH because my drive to work every day was terrifying with people weaving on the highway on their phones or changing lanes going 20+ miles over the speed limit. In 2 years I never saw a cop pull a car over except to tend to a wreck.

[kath16]

Jul 29, 2024 20:36:21 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 29, 2024 20:19:57 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

St. Louis had red light cameras but someone sued them or something and they’re no more.

The big thing now is to go hard after people with expired temp tags. So much so, that the police have asked the public to call and report them. Maybe people wouldn’t have expired tags if you didn’t require sales tax be paid in less than a month in order to get plates? Or at the very least let people roll the costs into their financing. But sure, let’s ask citizens to help fine each other. Great idea!

Uh, people should be figuring tax as part of the buying cost. Is this one of the financial things like how to write a check that needs to be included for adults?

ok, i read this the same way as you and thought maybe i was misunderstanding the original post. it's like going out to a sit down restaurant but not tipping bc you "can't afford it"

[wawa]

Jul 29, 2024 23:26:29 GMT -5 sillygoosegirl said:

At least 5 times in the last 6 months I've been nearly hit crossing an intersection *with the light* on foot or on my bike by someone running a red. And I don't mean people late into the intersection on a yellow, that I see every single day to the extent that it's almost an oddity if the walking man is still showing when the cross traffic has finally come to a fucking stop. Which, unless they've changed the timing on the lights, is also way worse than it used to be. Running red lights didn't used to be such a common occurrence where I live. I don't recall hardly ever seeing people blow through red lights like they weren't even there before the pandemic (occassionally, yes, but it was rare and noteworthy). It's absolutely terrifying out there. People are driving like the traffic laws are just suggestions, and frankly, if there's no enforcement, they kinda are just suggestions.

I'm really annoyed at Vision Zero turning away from enforcement. Yeah, it's certainly true that we need better engineered streets, but the best we can get engineering-wise around here is some paint and maybe the occassional lead time on a walk signal or a HAWK, but if people are blowing through red lights like they aren't even there, what do these engineering improvements actually do? Nothing but provide me a false sense of security, as far as I can tell. I realize there are far better ways to engineer traffic safety than that, but I cannot get the people in charge around here to see it. And I don't understand dropping enforcement in an environment where our roads are still so dangerous.

I see a lot of people saying desire for more racial justice is the reason for dropping enforcement, but that seems terribly misguided to me, if it is even really the reason. It seems like we've traded a crisis of racially discriminatory traffic stops for a crisis of rising traffic deaths which also disproportionately impacts people of color. One systemic racial injustice for another. We need real solutions. Including non-racist ways of doing traffic enforcement, in addition to engineering for safety over speed.

I am very much in favor heavy use of automated enforcement as the way to lessen the bias in enforcement without throwing away the rules entirely for exactly that reason. I'd love not to need to use regressive fining or anything else with a disparate impact, but we're not there, especially when the impact of the safety issue itself is already SO heavily skewed.  However, I think part of the reason that the conversation around VZ has intentionally moved away from enforcement also has to do with the fact that it was being used as an easy out. (i.e. not JUST the justice piece) I see a lot of the older engineers using enforcement as an excuse for why we can't/don't have to build better streets.  Like, there's nothing wrong with this (4 lane wide, 12' lanes, 4' sidewalk, 180 second signals every half mile with bus stops every 1000 feet) infrastructure, people just need to follow the rules!  

[mrspez07]

Jul 30, 2024 7:51:33 GMT -5 kath16 said:

Jul 29, 2024 20:36:21 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Uh, people should be figuring tax as part of the buying cost. Is this one of the financial things like how to write a check that needs to be included for adults?

ok, i read this the same way as you and thought maybe i was misunderstanding the original post. it's like going out to a sit down restaurant but not tipping bc you "can't afford it"

I bought my car in Feb 23, in CO, my temp tags expired 60 days later. I could not go get my plates without receiving the info in the mail, and the DMV required appointments to do so. My tags expired I think on a Fri or Sat (not open Sat), and I didn’t get the registration info in the mail until Thurs, no ability to get in on Friday and then paid a fine/fee for being late when I went in the next week. Obviously that doesn’t explain the super expired plates around here but I think the slow turnaround with the dealers and DMV processing the registrations happened during the pandemic and maybe never caught up. Or people just don’t care and haven’t been caught so they keep pushing off the cost of the plates.

[anodyne]

Jul 29, 2024 20:36:21 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jul 29, 2024 20:19:57 GMT -5 jlt19 said:

St. Louis had red light cameras but someone sued them or something and they’re no more.

The big thing now is to go hard after people with expired temp tags. So much so, that the police have asked the public to call and report them. Maybe people wouldn’t have expired tags if you didn’t require sales tax be paid in less than a month in order to get plates? Or at the very least let people roll the costs into their financing. But sure, let’s ask citizens to help fine each other. Great idea!

Uh, people should be figuring tax as part of the buying cost. Is this one of the financial things like how to write a check that needs to be included for adults?

Yes, they should, but same as with traffic violations, if they aren't enforced people are going to take advantage.  I see at least 3 expired temp tags a day.  You can also assume that they are not carrying insurance either.  That with the fact that I see just as many people running red lights a day, St. Louis is a scary place to drive.