WWYD: is this bullying?

[noodleoo]

DD1 had an issue with a kid in her class last year and I'm trying to figure out what I should do (if anything) as we start the next school year.

Background:  There is a kid J who lives in our neighborhood.  We've known him a long time and I think he may have oppositional defiant disorder (ODD).  He can be defiant, unruly and sometimes aggressive.  He has a full time 1:1 aide at school. His mom is nice, but I know she's at her wits end trying to manage him, it is hard.  There are also other family issues going on, it is a troubled household.  DD1 used to play with him outside, but as she's gotten older she doesn't enjoy playing with him because "he's too rough".  For example, last summer neighborhood kids were playing water guns outside and he kept shooting all the kids in the face.  He had some crazy super soaker gun and the spray was strong, kids were crying.  His dad tried to reign him in and tell him to stop doing it, but it turned into a loud argument between him and his dad so we just left.  I have told DD1 she has to be kind, but she doesn't have to play with him if she doesn't want to.

Last year they were in the same class together.  Towards the end of the year, there was an incident where J punched DD1 in the stomach.  DD1 told me about it on the way home from school and was very upset about it.  She said that he tripped, thought it was her fault (she says it wasn't) so he turned around and punched her.  I immediately emailed her teacher and they dealt with it through their policy, although it was pretty invisible to me.  Ultimately I think they talked to the school counselor and J had to write her an apology letter.  He did and DD1 said she was fine with it, but I saw the letter and he said "I'm sorry I accidentally nudged you", which doesn't sound sincere to me.  It was the end of school year so we let it go.  

Over the summer they were in the same summer camp class for 1 week and DD1 told me that he was telling the other kids "Don't play with DD1, she will get you in trouble".  She said she just ignored him and played with her friends and luckily they didn't overlap at camp again.

Yesterday, DD1 was out riding bikes in the neighborhood with friends and they came across him.  He was playing alone with a nerf gun and he started shooting at them.  DD1 said she told him to stop and that she didn't like it, but he didn't.  She also says that he was targeting her out the 3 kids riding.  Her sister (who is 5!) was with her and was scared and also confirmed that he was aiming for DD1.  He didn't hit them and I think they just rode away.

Do I need to be concerned about this?  I requested they not be in class together this year and they aren't.  I told DD1 to just stay away from him and that she can loudly tell him to stop if he's bothering her.  And if it happens at school to tell her teacher.  

H was in burn it down mode yesterday and wanted to reach out to his parents, but 1) I don't think they can control him even if they tried, 2) calling attention to it seems more likely to make it worse and 3) I don't trust that the parents would respond well (its 50:50).  

WWYD?  Would you say something to the school preemptively or wait and see how it goes?  She starts back tomorrow.  If you read all that, thanks.

[maudefindlay]

I think you have set her up for success preemptively by having them in separate classes. They might have recess together though and lunch time. I think you should talk thru those 2 scenarios with her and what to do if he starts in on her. This is such a sucky situation, but I'd wait to say something to the school till he does something, but then I'd be on them.

[maudefindlay]

This is reminding me of when I was a kid and my older next door neighbor broke into our house when I was home alone. He got in big trouble when I told his Mom and he blamed me. He was so mean to me, giving me dirty looks, saying mean things, lunging at me pretending like he was going to hurt me. It made me so uncomfortable. I'm glad you are looking out for your DD.

[abs]

I think you’ve set her up for success as much as you can. I would role play different scenarios with her so she knows what to do if he bothers her at recess or during a specials class but I wouldn’t involve the school at this point. They are separated for most of the day which is all you can ask.

I’m sorry. It does sound like a really tough situation. Only thing is I would stop telling her to be kind. It’s well meaning advice but can really backfire. Been there so learn from my mistakes, lol. Kids should not have to be nice to bullies or mean kids At a certain age it’s ok to teach them to protect their peace and teach them tools to address that.

I hope she has a great year!

[waverly]

We have a relational bully issue rather than physical, but last year I did tell the teacher and social worker because I wanted to make sure they were not seated together. I also moved her seat on the bus this year with the transportation director. I did not say anything to the actual school this year because they have no classes together and recess is not a factor in middle school, so the only overlap would be lunch. They stay away from each other, so I think lunch should be fine.

If you have a concern that something may happen in the hallway or recess you can let them know strictly in a "for their files, keep an eye on it" type of way. That way if something does happen it was documented.

[mofongo]

I think I would wait and just keep a close eye. It sounds like this child may not be capable of having appropriate responses to his behaviors, so a sincere apology may never be in the cards. That is such a challenging thing to deal with for all involved!

[ssmjlm]

I wouldn't involve the school unless something happens at school that requires intervention.

I think just not engaging, leaving the situation at home/neighborhood is the best you can do. I don't think on his end things will change, so it's more about how your DDs react (or don't).

[redheadk]

Do they still have recess together or a class like PE? Our elementary combined classes for PE, which is why I ask.

IME as a teacher, the issues you are describing happen at a higher rate during less structured times so she is still at risk if she is with him during recess, etc. I would absolutely reach out to her teacher with just a heads up that she has been the focus of problematic behaviors around the neighborhood and that you’d like the staff monitoring recess (or whatever) to be aware should any problems arise. Let the teacher know what you’ve told your dd (do not seek him out, etc).

[redheadk]

Aug 27, 2024 12:05:10 GMT -5 abs said:

I think you’ve set her up for success as much as you can. I would role play different scenarios with her so she knows what to do if he bothers her at recess or during a specials class but I wouldn’t involve the school at this point. They are separated for most of the day which is all you can ask.

I’m sorry. It does sound like a really tough situation. Only thing is I would stop telling her to be kind. It’s well meaning advice but can really backfire. Been there so learn from my mistakes, lol. Kids should not have to be nice to bullies or mean kids At a certain age it’s ok to teach them to protect their peace and teach them tools to address that.

I hope she has a great year!

100% agree on not telling her to be kind. She doesn’t owe him anything.

[rachers]

I’m so sorry. This sounds tough on your DD.

It also sounds familiar - we have a neighbor boy who has a similar situation. We’ve tried to give DD (6, almost 7) good language to use when he bothers her. Also that she knows she absolutely doesn’t have to play with him if she’s uncomfortable. I’ve sent him home for using a nerf gun against the girls playing in our yard. I have zero patience for it.

We had one incident where I told him to go play in his yard if he wants to use his nerf gun and he snuck back over and basically snipered the girls. His Mom is disabled and very hands off so I do feel badly for him, but it’s not DD’s responsibility to take that on.

I’d say definitely keep the teacher in the loop and continue giving her the language and back up so she feels comfortable reaching out to an adult if there are further issues.

[meanie]

I think I remember you posting about the punching incident, I'm sorry he is still targeting your DD. I would loop in her teacher and let them know that problems from last school year have continued throughout the summer and you need them to not interact when possible.

We have told our kids in the past that if someone is doing something physically to them that they are to say very loudly "stop touching me/hitting me/etc" until an adult intervenes and the action stops. They are allowed to defend themselves, sometimes ignoring and trying to separate themselves does not work, especially if the person is targeting them. I am not condoning violence but if your DD throws an elbow his way I would probably just look the other way 😂

[wanderingback]

I don’t know how old your kid is but if they can write I assume older than 5. So I also think if you know the kid has a mental illness diagnosis (sounds like the parents told you?) you can also tell your daughter that. It doesn’t sound like she would use it against him or bully him for it so I think once kids are old enough they should absolutely understand why some kids and adults act the way they do. It doesn’t excuse his behavior but will give your daughter better context and why she needs to avoid him as much as possible. Also that she doesn’t have to be nice to him and can stick up for herself if needed. I think can explain that mental illness doesn’t always make people mean but it can change their brain and make it difficult for them at times.

[noodleoo]

Aug 27, 2024 14:06:00 GMT -5 meanie said:

I think I remember you posting about the punching incident, I'm sorry he is still targeting your DD. I would loop in her teacher and let them know that problems from last school year have continued throughout the summer and you need them to not interact when possible.

We have told our kids in the past that if someone is doing something physically to them that they are to say very loudly "stop touching me/hitting me/etc" until an adult intervenes and the action stops. They are allowed to defend themselves, sometimes ignoring and trying to separate themselves does not work, especially if the person is targeting them. I am not condoning violence but if your DD throws an elbow his way I would probably just look the other way 😂

Thanks everyone.  Yeah, I'm leaning towards letting the teacher know.  I was hoping it would be forgotten over the summer and we wouldn't have to worry about it, but the targeting her specifically with the nerf gun yesterday seems that's not the case.

We talked yesterday about loudly saying "Stop it!".  I also need to go back and mention that she doesn't have to be nice to him if he's doing anything inappropriate towards her, that's a good point.

wanderingback, she's 9, going into 4th grade.

[klee23]

OP- I don't think there is harm in looping her teacher in so she can keep her eyes peeled during recess (of its teachers who monitor).

Question though: with the punching episode and other school encounters- where was his 1:1? Not that they could physically intervene per se but could they redirect this boy away from your daughter during school hours?

[momof2]

I would stop using the word “nice.” Your kid doesn’t have to be nice to him EVER. In fact, she should avoid him as much as possible. You should talk to her about being NEUTRAL. That’s it — not nice, not mean. Neutral and avoid, avoid, avoid. Girls don’t have to be nice to assholes even if they aren’t being jerks in that particular moment. In a similar situation, I know a kid whose parents instituted a “10 foot rule.” They told their kid to always try to be 10 feet from the nightmare kid. This rule is still going on now at the beginning of seventh grade.

Having a kid with ODD is so hard. My close friend has one and even with the best parenting, the kid is going to do a million things “wrong.” An ODD kid with instability of home is likely to be an impossible situation. It isn’t going to magically get better.

That said, you should let both the teacher and guidance counselor know.

[sarahsas]

I'd give your DD's teacher a heads up that there has been an issue with him in school and the neighborhood. Just a quick FYI so the teacher can keep an eye out for things like recess and lunch. I'm a principal, and I always appreciate if a parent gives me a heads up so I can put my eyes on the situation. I'm guessing the school very well knows what's going on with this kid and it won't be a surprise.

[livinitup]

Yes. You absolutely have evidence that this child is targeting your child - at camp and in the neighborhood. In addition, this child thinks he has a good reason to target your daughter. She was wrong and he was right and he is now the victim of her snitching. He sees himself as the hero warning others about her and dishing out punishment with a nerf gun. (What are adults giving this child harsher-than-normal super soakers and nerf guns??). It’s the story he is telling himself and the story has lastest for months.


Damned if I know what you should do. But I do know you should have a clear assessment and understanding of what you are dealing with. Your daughter, too.

Part of me thinks that if you have a well adjusted child with age-appropriate coping skills, you should let her know that he is going to be mean and sneaky and won’t stop and it’s not her fault. Adults can help. Sometimes.

[niq]

I don't know what -- if anything -- the school can do about incidents that happen outside of school. I think it's fine to document it for the counselor & IEP case manager.

I can't tell from the OP how much this kid's parents are or aren't involved in trying to make progress on behavior management. If you think y'all have something constructive to say and they'd take it well, go for it, otherwise I think I'd just MYOB.

[macmars45]

I would loop your DDs teacher and the school counselor in on the situation as an FYI.

[jobae1234]

Aug 27, 2024 14:55:18 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I don’t know how old your kid is but if they can write I assume older than 5. So I also think if you know the kid has a mental illness diagnosis (sounds like the parents told you?) you can also tell your daughter that. It doesn’t sound like she would use it against him or bully him for it so I think once kids are old enough they should absolutely understand why some kids and adults act the way they do. It doesn’t excuse his behavior but will give your daughter better context and why she needs to avoid him as much as possible. Also that she doesn’t have to be nice to him and can stick up for herself if needed. I think can explain that mental illness doesn’t always make people mean but it can change their brain and make it difficult for them at times.

I think this advice is well meaning, but her DD would have to keep any diagnosis talk completely secret, and I doubt she’d be able to stop herself from telling a friend etc, and then it’s gossip. ODD is in the DSM but it’s more of a pipeline into antisocial personality/(very mild) sociopathy which isn’t what most people mean when they hear mental illness. Also I think it’s dangerous to tell girls to try to understand why horrible men are the way they are. Just note that they’re horrible and stay tf away from them.

I don’t mean to pick on your very thoughtful response. I just know so many young women who will say “he can’t help how he treats me because of his depression/the way his mom was/his anxiety/his ADHD” and really it’s irrelevant. Yes support a loved one who is actively in treatment for mental illness, but understanding quickly turns into excusing. Also her kid will get in trouble for calling him mentally ill and I want her above the fray.

Agree with others that she doesn’t need to be kind, and frankly she never did because this kid has sucked for a long time.

[jobae1234]

I’d let the school know he’s been targeting her all summer. I hope his 1:1 is with him at recess too. If not I’d be requesting that at every incident.

[wanderingback]

Sept 2, 2024 7:12:55 GMT -5 jobae1234 said:

Aug 27, 2024 14:55:18 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I don’t know how old your kid is but if they can write I assume older than 5. So I also think if you know the kid has a mental illness diagnosis (sounds like the parents told you?) you can also tell your daughter that. It doesn’t sound like she would use it against him or bully him for it so I think once kids are old enough they should absolutely understand why some kids and adults act the way they do. It doesn’t excuse his behavior but will give your daughter better context and why she needs to avoid him as much as possible. Also that she doesn’t have to be nice to him and can stick up for herself if needed. I think can explain that mental illness doesn’t always make people mean but it can change their brain and make it difficult for them at times.

I think this advice is well meaning, but her DD would have to keep any diagnosis talk completely secret, and I doubt she’d be able to stop herself from telling a friend etc, and then it’s gossip. ODD is in the DSM but it’s more of a pipeline into antisocial personality/(very mild) sociopathy which isn’t what most people mean when they hear mental illness. Also I think it’s dangerous to tell girls to try to understand why horrible men are the way they are. Just note that they’re horrible and stay tf away from them.

I don’t mean to pick on your very thoughtful response. I just know so many young women who will say “he can’t help how he treats me because of his depression/the way his mom was/his anxiety/his ADHD” and really it’s irrelevant. Yes support a loved one who is actively in treatment for mental illness, but understanding quickly turns into excusing. Also her kid will get in trouble for calling him mentally ill and I want her above the fray.

Agree with others that she doesn’t need to be kind, and frankly she never did because this kid has sucked for a long time.

This has nothing to do with men. Women also have mental illnesses. Maybe it’s because I live in a city and unfortunately encounter a lot of people with mental illness (both men and women) so I absolutely will have to explain to my child that some people have an illness in their brain which makes them behave a certain way so we need to stay away from them. It is not meant to excuse their behavior but to explain why you might need to stay away from someone and that being nice/kind isn’t the answer, but avoiding them is the answer because of their illness.

OP, did clarify that her daughter is 9, that’s why I asked the age. I was thinking she was older. I think adolescents should have the maturity to understand mental illness in this day and age.

[heygrey]

This boy has a 1:1, his classmates have witnessed his outbursts, and watched adults jump into action to support him. All of his classmates have a basic understanding that he has unique challenges and therefore requires extra support. Confirming that to her daughter isn't divulging classified medical information. It doesn't even require mentioning a specific diagnosis. Simply say, "His brain works differently than most and he struggles to be kind and understand social norms. We can be sympathetic to that, but also don't have to ignore or tolerate unkind behaviour. Tell an adult if he picks on you at school."

And yes, noodleoo, I would give a brief heads up to the appropriate people at school. You can come at it from a place of understanding that this child struggles and also be a firm advocate for your daughters physical and emotional safety at school. 

[beerlover]

heygrey, the wording you use here is basically how I approach things with DS when he tells me about kids that struggle/act out in his classroom. It seems to work well.

[186momx]

noodleoo, how has the start of school gone?
We had something similar happen to us back in kindergarten and we worked with DD on saying "stop, no, don't touch me" in a stern loud voice so it would attract an adults attention and planting her feet so the kid couldn't knock her down so easily. It helped and the school staff helped too trying to intervene before DD had to say anything. The girls are now 8th graders and we are still neighbors and DD still gives her a wide berth if she sees her outside. We also did school choice so they don't attend the same school.

[noodleoo]

186momx , we've had 4 days of school and so far no issues! It looks like DD1 is not in any classes with J except maybe gym or art, but I don't think she's had it yet. I ended up putting a note about the history with J into the parent questionnaire they send on the first day, but the teacher hasn't said anything. Hopefully she sees it at some point. But at this point I'm going to try to let it go unless there are any issues at school.

[wanderingback]

Sept 2, 2024 12:09:10 GMT -5 heygrey said:

This boy has a 1:1, his classmates have witnessed his outbursts, and watched adults jump into action to support him. All of his classmates have a basic understanding that he has unique challenges and therefore requires extra support. Confirming that to her daughter isn't divulging classified medical information. It doesn't even require mentioning a specific diagnosis. Simply say, "His brain works differently than most and he struggles to be kind and understand social norms. We can be sympathetic to that, but also don't have to ignore or tolerate unkind behaviour. Tell an adult if he picks on you at school."

And yes, noodleoo, I would give a brief heads up to the appropriate people at school. You can come at it from a place of understanding that this child struggles and also be a firm advocate for your daughters physical and emotional safety at school. 

Yes, thank you, this is what I was trying to say.

[redheadk]

Sept 5, 2024 10:15:49 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Sept 2, 2024 12:09:10 GMT -5 heygrey said:

This boy has a 1:1, his classmates have witnessed his outbursts, and watched adults jump into action to support him. All of his classmates have a basic understanding that he has unique challenges and therefore requires extra support. Confirming that to her daughter isn't divulging classified medical information. It doesn't even require mentioning a specific diagnosis. Simply say, "His brain works differently than most and he struggles to be kind and understand social norms. We can be sympathetic to that, but also don't have to ignore or tolerate unkind behaviour. Tell an adult if he picks on you at school."

And yes, noodleoo , I would give a brief heads up to the appropriate people at school. You can come at it from a place of understanding that this child struggles and also be a firm advocate for your daughters physical and emotional safety at school. 

Yes, thank you, this is what I was trying to say.

This is exactly how I explained the situation to my daughter (8 at the time). It was really helpful for her to understand better what was happening and why along with firm reassurance that this in no way meant that she had to be tolerant of his behavior. Eliminating some of the confusion helped her figure out how to navigate having him has a classmate. As a parent, especially HER parent, I was under no obligation to protect his privacy to her detriment, especially when my knowledge comes from information that the other parents have freely shared. DD was also not under any obligation to keep anything secret.