Can you "force" an estrangement?

[lavenderblue]

PDQ as I may delete

I wasn't really sure how to title this post. My kids do not want anything to do with their father. I have full legal and physical custody. My daughter will be 18 in November and my son in April 2026. Their Dad is verbally and emotionally abusive and has been their whole lives though it's really in the last year that they have realized the extent of his abuse and went from seeing him half the time to slowly backing down on the amount of visitation, to in the Spring no longer visiting at all (with the exception of Fathers Day which was a complete mess). They have blocked him on their phones and all social media after repeatedly asking him to stop contacting them and to give them space. I have asked him repeatedly to give them space. He continues to reach out to them creating new phone numbers every time to get around the fact that they have blocked him. After the last attempt last week and me telling him yet again to please put their needs ahead of his own and stop texting them and my daughter telling him again to stop contacting her, he now has his Mom sending them screen shots of messages he wants them to see. It's honestly bordering on harassment at this point and I have no idea what to do. My daughter has an Eating Disorder and is prone to binging when her anxiety is triggered, and of course, every time he reaches out it sends her in to a mental health spiral and she binges. My son who has always been very even keeled emotionally has now developed anxiety. 

All of that to say, how can I stop him? Can I stop him? Is there anything I can do to help my kids? I do have an email in to my attorney and waiting to hear back from him, but I honestly don't know if I can even do anything legally because they are minors, and even as adult, I don't know if his behavior would even qualify for something like a PFA. Any advice?

[SusanBAnthony]

Could they change their phone numbers? They could get new real numbers, and IF they ever want to connect with dad in the future, use only a Google number- that way they can more effectively block him.

I am not up on SM but can't they make themselves private so he cant find them?

[karinothing]

I agree with changing the kids numbers. I know it is annoying, but I think that is the only way to do that.

[mel]

Can you change your children's phone numbers? I'm not sure how it is in PA, but isn't there an age in which the child can tell the courts they no longer want contact with the other, regardless of past custody arrangements?

[cville]

Yes. With a restraining order/whatever it's called in your state.

You don't need a lawyer to file for one. And you can do so on behalf of minor children (usually).

Baring that legal option, the only other way I know how is to ignore, act bored, and limit/end contact with people who support/stay connected with the person.

[pinkdutchtulips]

I was awarded full legal/physical custody of my daughter as a part of the DVRO against him and it included a 'no contact' order that covered both of us. If he violated it, it was reported to LEO.

[lavenderblue]

I have talked to them about changing their numbers and we are considering that route, but it is very disruptive. And if they did that they would essentially then need to cut off all contact with their grandmother because she could not be trusted to not give their new numbers to their Dad.

cville I did think about a PFA, but would this even qualify for something like that? I do think that he is harassing them, but wasn't sure if that would be "enough".

[hermione]

Can they communicate with the grandmother through your phone? Changing their numbers seems to be the easiest answer here.

[livinitup]

That sounds brutal to manage as a mom. I can only imagine that this is really impossible to navigate for your children. So many mixed emotions for them.

The tough part is that his actions, in a vacuum & individually,
are not illegal. It’s the relentless enormity of it that is becoming stalking which brings some stay-away “enforcement” options. That seems like a terrible fit for this situation. At least for now.

I suppose to have a role in helping the children navigate this, you need a way to insert yourself into knowing what’s going on and how to mange his inappropriate behaviors. That’s tricky. The kids will probably say ‘leave it alone’ and suffer in bewilderment.

Is his well being in question? Should his support system be concerned for his mental state? Is this a manic state? Maybe that’s a starting point. You mentioned that he recruited his mother (the grandmother), is she a good person, stable, or frantic? And if he’s okay, then you can (at least for the minor child) suggest a future date/time for communication. Is the opened-ended request for space impossible or beyond his abilities? At least with a certain date/time for an email or call, you can document his “breaking” that with a bit more clarity. In case your child/ren have to present a case to a MH provider or court.

I’m so sorry. This sounds really hard.

[cville]

Sept 9, 2024 12:12:07 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

I have talked to them about changing their numbers and we are considering that route, but it is very disruptive. And if they did that they would essentially then need to cut off all contact with their grandmother because she could not be trusted to not give their new numbers to their Dad.

cville I did think about a PFA, but would this even qualify for something like that? I do think that he is harassing them, but wasn't sure if that would be "enough".

I would think it would be an uphill battle, because a lot of judges don't understand harassment. But that would depend on the frequency and content of the messages. It could be worth a shot.

I also wouldn't focus only on a PFA. That's a specific kind of order related to a specific kind of abuse. Look into/talk with your attorney about a restraining order/PRO/other form of order.

[Nugget T. Brain, The OG]

Sept 9, 2024 12:12:07 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

I have talked to them about changing their numbers and we are considering that route, but it is very disruptive. And if they did that they would essentially then need to cut off all contact with their grandmother because she could not be trusted to not give their new numbers to their Dad.

cville I did think about a PFA, but would this even qualify for something like that? I do think that he is harassing them, but wasn't sure if that would be "enough".

Is it more disruptive than what their father is doing to them right now?

And yes, if their grandmother cannot be trusted then she is cut off too. Frankly, she's shown that she will put her abusive son above her grandchildren so I think there's not a lot of gray area there.

[cville]

Sept 9, 2024 12:22:07 GMT -5 Nugget T. Brain, The OG said:

Sept 9, 2024 12:12:07 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

I have talked to them about changing their numbers and we are considering that route, but it is very disruptive. And if they did that they would essentially then need to cut off all contact with their grandmother because she could not be trusted to not give their new numbers to their Dad.

cville I did think about a PFA, but would this even qualify for something like that? I do think that he is harassing them, but wasn't sure if that would be "enough".

Is it more disruptive than what their father is doing to them right now?

And yes, if their grandmother cannot be trusted then she is cut off too. Frankly, she's shown that she will put her abusive son above her grandchildren so I think there's not a lot of gray area there.

💯

[cmeon]

Run their phones in DND, allow only known contacts (and block any of dads numbers and his mom). If they're on iphones you may need a 3rd party app to filter voicemails, though.

It's riskier for older kids (who may have legitimate reasons to get calls from new numbers), but maybe the break will allow him time to fuck off.

I do not like your exes.

[lust2hart]

Ugh what a mess. It is infuriating that he won’t respect his own kids’ wishes. And roping his mom into it is beyond the pale.

I think your best bets are to 1.) revisit the court for a no-contact order, which may require your kids testifying or writing a letter; and/or 2.) changing the kids’ numbers.

[thebreakfastclub]

Grandma needs cut off asap. She's not interested in the well being of the kids.

[gretchenindisguise]

I would do new phone numbers + google number for grandma if they still want to maintain some contact with her. If she sends anything from dad, she gets blocked from that number.

[pinkdutchtulips]

Sept 9, 2024 12:12:07 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

I have talked to them about changing their numbers and we are considering that route, but it is very disruptive. And if they did that they would essentially then need to cut off all contact with their grandmother because she could not be trusted to not give their new numbers to their Dad.

cville I did think about a PFA, but would this even qualify for something like that? I do think that he is harassing them, but wasn't sure if that would be "enough".

Let the courts decide what 'enough' is. You might be surprised in what they say. 

I never asked for full legal/physical custody w/ zero visitation to her dad. I braced myself for some version of 25/75 (every other weekend) or supervised visitation. I was pleasantly surprised with what the judge awarded. 

[thebreakfastclub]

Sept 9, 2024 12:39:45 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

Ugh what a mess. It is infuriating that he won’t respect his own kids’ wishes. And roping his mom into it is beyond the pale.

I think your best bets are to 1.) revisit the court for a no-contact order, which may require your kids testifying or writing a letter; and/or 2.) changing the kids’ numbers.

Ehh his mom raised that gem and she sounds like she's not that great herself.

[mommyatty]

I think I would:
1) change their numbers or make it so only their contacts ring through,
2) block grandma and tell her all communications will come through you and only be sent to/shared with the kids if you deem it appropriate,
3) have your attorney send him and his mom a cease and desist order. It has zero actual authority but often scares people straight,
and if they continue after the cease and desist, then
4) go to court for an order.

[rubytue]

I am estranged from my mother by my choice and “enforcement” since I was 27. Every few years something comes us and she contacts me. I considered, but never pursued a restraining order. I figured I didn’t have anything real to go on (gaslighting myself). It’s taken a lot, and required the support of family members that were still in contact. Moving, unlisted phone numbers, very, very, very rarely does my name appear online (and she has called the main reception where I work before, and even a boss once). Once she showed up at a house I had recently sold (500 miles from where she lives).

I tell you all this not as a sob story (or a make it about me), but just to give you a feel for what it can be like dealing with an unstable, abuser who doesn’t consent to the estrangement. It’s a commitment. A restraining order would be easier.

[sonrisa]

I will be an outlier and say if the kids want to maintain contact with grandma, then it's kind of you to support them. I hope her poor judgment and breaches of trust are rare and she is otherwise a wonderful presence in their lives (but still worth guarding against the risk).

But that doesn't mean she needs to know their numbers. They can call from your phone or block the number before calling her.

[basilosaurus]

Sept 9, 2024 13:03:57 GMT -5 thebreakfastclub said:

Sept 9, 2024 12:39:45 GMT -5 lust2hart said:

Ugh what a mess. It is infuriating that he won’t respect his own kids’ wishes. And roping his mom into it is beyond the pale.

I think your best bets are to 1.) revisit the court for a no-contact order, which may require your kids testifying or writing a letter; and/or 2.) changing the kids’ numbers.

Ehh his mom raised that gem and she sounds like she's not that great herself.

I do agree she doesn't sound great for enabling his harassment, but I feel uncomfortable placing blame on mom for having a shit son. Great parents can have awful children and awful parents can have great children. And let's not forget there might have been a father or father figures in his life, too.

[thebreakfastclub]

Sept 10, 2024 0:20:02 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Sept 9, 2024 13:03:57 GMT -5 thebreakfastclub said:

Ehh his mom raised that gem and she sounds like she's not that great herself.

I do agree she doesn't sound great for enabling his harassment, but I feel uncomfortable placing blame on mom for having a shit son. Great parents can have awful children and awful parents can have great children. And let's not forget there might have been a father or father figures in his life, too.

Mostly I blame her for her own actions in enabling his continued harassment of the kids. She knows what she's doing.

[lavenderblue]

Thank you everyone who has responded and also those who have shared personal stories. I can only imagine how difficult it is dealing with the emotions that come with cutting off a family member. I know that my kids are struggling, but mostly out of guilt. They understand that it is better for them right now for him to not be in their lives because they now realize just how abusive and manipulative he is.

As for the Grandmother, she is not really a great person. Many years ago when we were still married, I had to put my foot down that she was no longer allowed in our home. She was always a little "off" but after FIL died (who wasn't a great person either) she just completely lost all sense of decorum. She has always been good to my kids on the surface, but we are just now starting to realize just how much she enables their Dad to be the shitty person that he is. My daughter has asked her repeatedly to just stay out of things, but she doesn't. She's hesitant to cut her off because she is much older and DD is fearful that she's going to die soon. So, yeah. It's complicated.

[mommyatty]

lavenderblue- I don’t know if this will help your kids, but it helped me deal with an emotionally abusive mom. It was helpful to reframe the behavior as an illness. My mother loves me the best she is able, and she’s mentally and emotionally unable to do better than she is. However, her illness makes me ill, and just like we stayed away from people with Covid because we knew it could kill us or harm us, I need to stay away from my mother because her illness is “contagious”. (And yeah, I know I’m not going to get the one she has, this isn’t literal, it’s figurative. Her illness causes me to have depression, anxiety, and disordered eating, it doesn’t cause me to be a raging self-absorbed bitch.) So I am not rejecting her. I am protecting myself from catching her mental illness. Your kids aren’t rejecting their dad. They are protecting themselves from mental illness. Same with the grandma. She’s caught it and is now contagious too.