which hiking pack for my new scout?

[CloudBee]

A few facts:
- he's 11 and small for his age, still wearing size M/10 clothing for the most part
- he isn't able to camp overnight with his troop, but is going to day hike a few of their upcoming events
- his troop may have him hike in some of their extra water because he won't have a sleeping back or tent
- we want him to fit in, so after this weekend we're going to upgrade from his day pack to a pack that looks like his peers despite not packing much

This weekend he's hiking a portion of the Appalachian Trail with his troop and departing a few miles in before they make it to their campsite. I don't see us investing in a hiking pack in time for the upcoming weekend, but I want to start shopping around and looking for deals. Should I bring him into REI to try packs on? I'm not sure exactly what to look for, and I don't think we will want to pay full price if they come over and offer to help fit him. I like comparing prices online, but don't know what to compare.  

Although he's small and still very much has a little boy body (not filling out with muscle yet), we may want a pack that will grow with him. I am seeing ranges for 8+ and 12+, and the 12+ may be too large for him...?

The troop has tents and lots of gear for families to borrow, but I didn't see any packs in their gear closet last night.

Osprey? REI? Or is there a solid generic brand for a little guy who doesn't need the same durability as someone able to camp overnight? (Can't manage some of his meds in the woods so we will hike out as a family before dark.)

Our family mostly uses metal water bottles, so I've ordered a Nalgene for him and will pick up a case of Smart Water for our family, as I heard they are ultra light and pack well.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

[orval]

We have gone to REI and they help you get the right fit. They try on different packs and adjust them properly for you. REI brand would be fine for light use. We have Osprey, Gregory and REI brands -- all are good. It is really more what fits best and serves your needs. They weight of the pack is in the hips not the shoulders.  The right fit is important when you are carrying 30-40 pounds. 
You can get a bladder for water that should fit in the brain of your big pack with the tube that comes out for drinking. That is better than carry bottles of water. We do always have a nalgene too.
My ds got one at about 11 then another at 14. They only grow with you so much.

[CrazyLucky]

DS and DH are both big into scouting. They both have Ospreys, both daypacks and the overnight type. I'm not sure how your troop is, but there would be no concern of needing to fit in by wearing a bigger pack in DH's troop. Your DS should not get stuck carrying water for the troop! Most of the kids have higher end sleeping bags and tents that only weight a couple of pounds each. Even one gallon of water is going to weigh more than that.
If you're not in a hurry to get it, you might want to wait for REI's garage sale when they sell gently used things. Otherwise, I totally agree with orval, that REI is helpful with finding the right fit.
Make sure you get really good hiking boots and a decent first aid kit if you don't have them already. Good boots make the difference between a good experience and a terrible one.

[CloudBee]

Oct 29, 2024 8:36:25 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

DS and DH are both big into scouting. They both have Ospreys, both daypacks and the overnight type. I'm not sure how your troop is, but there would be no concern of needing to fit in by wearing a bigger pack in DH's troop. Your DS should not get stuck carrying water for the troop! Most of the kids have higher end sleeping bags and tents that only weight a couple of pounds each. Even one gallon of water is going to weigh more than that.
If you're not in a hurry to get it, you might want to wait for REI's garage sale when they sell gently used things. Otherwise, I totally agree with orval , that REI is helpful with finding the right fit.
Make sure you get really good hiking boots and a decent first aid kit if you don't have them already. Good boots make the difference between a good experience and a terrible one.

This is all especially helpful. Thank you.

I will make sure we're not over-loaded with water. And won't jump in to offer if it's not brought up again. Ha!

We had hiking boots delivered over the weekend (he hikes in sneakers with us), and they were too big. The new pair arrives today, and I don't think he will have time to break them in before Saturday. But we will have him wear them a lot between now and the next hike.

I forgot about their garage sales, and even their returned equipment area. I think we will stop by in the coming weeks. I was thinking we would get a nice hiking bag for him by at least Christmas, but maybe you're right. We will see how this weekend goes and he may be fine with his lightweight day pack.

Thank you!

[InBetweenDays]

Do you know what he'll need to carry? Have they sent a list?

Do you have a used outdoor gear store near you? That's where we got our kids' first backpacking packs.

But I would definitely go and at least talk to someone at REI to have him try some on. They also usually have rentals (not sure about kids sizes) so you could ask about that while you're there.

FWIW I have a North Face pack that is at least 24 years old. Still in great shape and I absolutely love it. But I go on a backpacking trip with a bunch of people each year and they all have Ospreys.

[CloudBee]

Oct 29, 2024 10:02:52 GMT -5 InBetweenDays said:

Do you know what he'll need to carry? Have they sent a list?

Do you have a used outdoor gear store near you? That's where we got our kids' first backpacking packs.

But I would definitely go and at least talk to someone at REI to have him try some on. They also usually have rentals (not sure about kids sizes) so you could ask about that while you're there.

FWIW I have a North Face pack that is at least 24 years old. Still in great shape and I absolutely love it. But I go on a backpacking trip with a bunch of people each year and they all have Ospreys.

The more I think about it, the more I realize we should probably see how this weekend goes before throwing money at a true hiking pack. It may be completely unnecessary for him in the coming years, and he may not care about having a little day pack when he joins the group. We have several lightweight day packs (fold up into a pouch) that we travel with, and those may very well be adequate. We also have a few North Face Jester packs that we use for weekend hikes as a family. Not lightweight, but they are really sturdy and hold everything while resting comfortably on our backs.

He doesn't need to carry much as he's not spending the night. Everyone packs their own lunch and snacks for day 1. As he's not having dinner or breakfast with them he won't be helping to carry and of the group meal items. I'm sure he will start off with his down sweater and shed a layer or two. We will bring extra socks, ample snacks, our first aid kit, etc., and "may" assist in carrying some of the water they will be using to cook dinner that night. 

24 years old! It must be buttery soft and fit your back perfectly by now. I love when things are broken in. DS actually prefers when I buy his jeans used because they're already softened up!

I had no idea that REI rents. Good to know for the future!

[186momx]

You might check out a hydration daypack. We use them when we hike. DH has a much bigger one than either DD or I have as he will hike longer day trips than either of us will.
I agree that REI is great to fit but I would write down the size/model etc and then look at other buying options especially for a kid.

[Susie]

At 11 he is too young to be carrying real weight.  Water is one of the heaviest things to carry, so DO NOT let him get loaded up with communal water!  One of the surest ways to make sure he doesn't get loaded up with more than he should carry is to have a backpack that's sized appropriately for what he IS going to carry, and no more.  If he's just day hiking, he should carry a day pack.  

If you do find yourself eventually shopping for packs, pretty much any of the brands you'll find at REI or similar places would be suitable.  I am chafing a little at your comment that you don't want to pay full price if they come over to help you, and you want to compare prices online.  Nobody likes to feel like they are overpaying for anything, but that mentality reminds me of the people who utilize running shoe store fitting services and then say no thanks, I can find this shoe for $10 less on Zappos.  If we want these stores to exist with inventory for us to try on, then we need to support these stores.  And to that end, you can't make an informed selection of a pack online based on age ranges, you really do need to try on, because the sizes (S/M/L) and allegedly associated ages are pretty arbitrary and not at all standardized from brand to brand.  Gregory happens to fit me best, although I wouldn't say it's a "better" brand than Osprey, Kelty, etc.  Just like Brooks running shoes fit me best, but they aren't objectively "better" than New Balance or Hoka or whatever.

I also don't really understand the rationale for buying a case of Smart Water for hiking.  My backpacking experience would counsel in the exact opposite direction:  a few good reusable bottles, and a filter for filtering water from natural sources while you are hiking, assuming there will be some fresh water somewhere along the trail.  We have an MSR Mini Works filter that has served us well.  Iodine tablets are another option.  These are explicitly for the purpose of reducing the water weight you're carrying at any given time, because water is hella heavy.  I can't even picture how one carries a case of disposable bottles.  Plus then you have to pack the empties out in accordance with Leave No Trace principles.  As far as the reusable bottles, metal ones that you already own are totally fine so the Nalgene purchase seems superfluous to me, if you're looking to cut a few $ from your gear bill.  A Camelbak or similar brand bladder with straw is also really useful, so that you're not constantly stopping to get water from a pack, take a sip, and put it back.

Hiking boots are the #1 most important piece of equipment, hands down.  I would recommend trying on in store, I never ever buy these online (for myself or my kids).  If you can't break them in ahead of time, at least be prepared for potential blistering.  Ideally you want them roomy enough to wear liner socks + wool hiking socks, so that the liner and wool socks rub against one another instead of the friction being between sock and skin.  It helps defer blisters, if not prevent.  Also carry Moleskin and something to cut it with (e.g. Swiss army knife).  STOP hiking to apply it if any hot spots develop.  This can prevent a hot spot from becoming a blister.  Note that Band Aids are not up to this task, because you would still have friction between the Band Aid gauze and the hot spot, whereas Moleskin sticks to the hot spot and friction is then between Moleskin and sock, instead of skin and sock.

The last thing I'd suggest is to look at how you are approaching these decisions and purchases.  It's possible I am reading into it but I am hearing a lot of considerations focused on optics and "looking like the rest of the troop" and not necessarily on what will fit and perform best.  A bigger pack just to look like the troop, a different water bottle from what you have even though what you have is fine, etc.  I would recommend redirecting focus away from what everybody else is doing, and turn it more toward what products serve your DS's actual uses and needs and body size/type best.  Even if that means not just click click clicking add to cart, and maybe talking to and supporting retailers with the local knowledge of where he will hike, what those demands are (or are not), what gear is best suited, what fits his body best, etc.  The right gear for the individual and the activity matters way more to enjoyment of backpacking than having the same brand of something as a friend.

[waverly]

If the primary goal is to get him a pack that fits in, then as I am dropping him off and picking him up I would be scoping out the packs that the other boys are wearing. You could also ask other parents and the Den or Pack leaders. You mentioned holding off anyway, so this could still be part of your information gathering stage.

I'm laughing because my advice is the opposite of Susie's but theoretically the other parents can also direct you to what is most useful. I agree though that fit is most important. 

Also, for the shoe situation I would rather wear good tennis shoes with decent traction than hiking shoes that are uncomfortable, not broken in and blisters.  The main reason for hiking boots is more the ankle support and possibly if you had purchased water proof ones. 

[CloudBee]

Susie You're the voice of reason and your insight is really helpful.

With a kid who is already going to stick out like a sore thumb by hiking out early and not spending the night with everyone, I thought the least I could do is make sure he has a similar pack at some point this year, even if it's half full. The Nalgene? I was told all the scouts are told to bring them on the hike because the boys use them as hot water bottles inside socks overnight. Seemed like an inexpensive purchase to make him feel like he's got the same resources as his buddies. I just know he will see other boys carrying gear that he doesn't get to use (like the tents and cookware), he'll have his regular old water bottle, and has to leave early with mom and dad to boot. That might sting. But - we can't keep missing group activities, so we're working with his group leader to figure out how he can participate by doing a portion of the day with his troop.

Maybe I'm projecting, but I rarely had the right gear for activities growing up and remember how that felt. I still remember bringing a cloudy old plastic half gallon (disposable) milk jug filled with water to field day in elementary school because I didn't own a water bottle. So I'm ok with clicking purchase if I'm helping him feel like everyone else, in a world where he often can't participate fully.

Listening to the voice of reason, and looking at the hiking pack prices and knowing that he's growing... I don't think I'm going to pursue spending money on one unless he brings it up. He's just going to grow from here on out, and we know he won't get as much use out of it as other kids.

We only hike with sneakers/tennis shoes as a family, so good to know that the boots I ordered may not feel right to him. We will return if they aren't comfortable when he tries them on, and will go to REI.

Thanks so much for your insight.

ETA: There's no water access until they get to the campsite, and he won't be hiking that far.

[waverly]

CloudBee, As a long time Cub Scout mom, I can honestly say that the camp outs were the bane of my existance. They always had them in fall and spring when it was freezing think 20-40 degrees at night. Once, it snowed so they did cancel that one. Due to the cold and presumably other factors it was quite common for families to leave in the middle of the night and a lot of people to be gone by the time I woke up at 6:30/ 7am. Once we figured that out, we felt a lot less guilty to leave early and sleep in a warm bed or not attend at all. Other than some boys making comments that DS never attends the camp outs that was the extent of a social situation. Nothing bad was ever said. There were lot of nuerodivergent boys in his den, so I guess he fit right in.

[heygrey]

If you want a specific bag to look at, DS uses the Osprey Jet 18 and it's a great size. We bought it when he was 6 for a trip to Australia. It was a bit big on him then, but with lightweight stuff totally manageable for shlepping around airports. He's almost 11 and still using it! I am continually shocked at how much stuff he can fit in there. He is tall, but has a slender build and it fits him really well now. I expect to get a couple more years of use out of it at least. It also works for me as a day pack. Sometimes when we're traveling I will use his rather than packing my own.

The quality has been excellent as well. He's taken it on 15+ flights, numerous hikes, and occasionally used it as a school backpack. It gets a little dirty, but washes up nicely. No holes or major damage after 5 years of use.

[sparty04]

I have no recommendations but if you have a Sierra nearby, it might be worth a look to see what they have

[Poppy]

My 9yo uses an REI Tarn 18 and I really love it. I would steal it except it's too small for me, and I am a backpack snob. It's not really a backpacking pack, though, but based on my experience I would buy the Tarn 40 sight unseen. I don't think I would go up to the 65, especially if you're not going to be doing serious backpacking trips.

I also agree with Susie that I wouldn't want to load my kid with communal water - it is so heavy and that feels like it could be too much pretty easily. And we hike with our stainless steel water bottles all the time so I don't think you should jump straight to ditching those.

[bee20]

Looks like you got some good answers, but I worked at a summer camp that did overnights with kids starting around age 8 for one night and the whole week for high school kids.

At 11 and small for his age, he should just be carrying a school or day pack. For kids that age we had them carry clothes, a sleeping mat, and sleeping bag, and then the counselors hiked in the food and tarps for the kids. Definitely a kid shouldn't be carrying a full pack of water!

I grew up backpacking and when I was away at college I still used just my school bag for bigger loads, I tied things onto it and it worked for overnights. If he loves it definitely look at REI for teen packs when he's a little bigger, you could consider womens bags but most now have curved straps for boobs so he may not fit those as well.

The smartwater bottles are actually a thing! Ultralight hikers try and keep their packs under 10 pounds, and they love smart water bottles because they are lighter than nalgenes and screw directly onto the most popular ultralight filter (the sawyer squeeze). They also hike in trail runners, which are just grippy tennis shoes. I'm not full ultralight but I feel best when I keep my weekend gear under 20 pounds with food and water. As you get gear it's worth looking at budget ultralight options if you expect your kid to stay on the smaller side. Just don't go for high-end ultralight with a kid (600 dollar tents are a thing), the gear is usually thinner and less durable.

[CrazyLucky]

A couple of things... at 11, he's a Boy Scout, not a Cub Scout, right? The two troops we've been involved in aimed to camp every month during the school year, including December and January.
And one more thing, which I say very gently because I am in exactly the same boat as you. Cub Scouts was very family oriented. Only two campouts per year and family was invited/expected. Boy Scouts only have a few adults per trip (they meet the required ratios, but it's not like every camper has a parent there). I went on one trip and was the only female. DS let me know that he would prefer I not go anymore, because no one else's mom goes. If fitting in is a top priority, you might want to sit some of those hikes out.

[CloudBee]

Oct 29, 2024 12:51:49 GMT -5 waverly said:

CloudBee , As a long time Cub Scout mom, I can honestly say that the camp outs were the bane of my existance. They always had them in fall and spring when it was freezing think 20-40 degrees at night. Once, it snowed so they did cancel that one. Due to the cold and presumably other factors it was quite common for families to leave in the middle of the night and a lot of people to be gone by the time I woke up at 6:30/ 7am. Once we figured that out, we felt a lot less guilty to leave early and sleep in a warm bed or not attend at all. Other than some boys making comments that DS never attends the camp outs that was the extent of a social situation. Nothing bad was ever said. There were lot of nuerodivergent boys in his den, so I guess he fit right in.

This is how we're all feeling. A bit overwhelmed paired with excitement for DS. They will be a few miles from the parking lots at either end, it's going to be chilly, we don't really have gear beyond simple day hike items, etc. We need to meet as a group early Saturday morning, then drive our own cars over an hour north into another state and an area I've never driven. LOL.

I will be curious to see how many boys participate in these overnight camping hikes in the coming months.

[CloudBee]

Oct 29, 2024 21:05:15 GMT -5 sparty04 said:

I have no recommendations but if you have a Sierra nearby, it might be worth a look to see what they have

We went into a Sierra for the first time over the summer and it was such a great store! I couldn't believe how many clearance and returned items they had on sale. It's almost an hour away, but at some point we will definitely make that drive to wander around again.

[CloudBee]

Oct 29, 2024 21:16:03 GMT -5 Poppy said:

My 9yo uses an REI Tarn 18 and I really love it. I would steal it except it's too small for me, and I am a backpack snob. It's not really a backpacking pack, though, but based on my experience I would buy the Tarn 40 sight unseen. I don't think I would go up to the 65, especially if you're not going to be doing serious backpacking trips.

I also agree with Susie that I wouldn't want to load my kid with communal water - it is so heavy and that feels like it could be too much pretty easily. And we hike with our stainless steel water bottles all the time so I don't think you should jump straight to ditching those.

Thanks! The Nalgene arrives today, which will be exciting for him. But we may just grab some of our emergency bottled water in plastic or just use our daily stainless bottles. Really appreciate that info.

And we will push back about carrying extra water as he will only have a day pack.

[CloudBee]

Oct 29, 2024 21:57:01 GMT -5 bee20 said:

Looks like you got some good answers, but I worked at a summer camp that did overnights with kids starting around age 8 for one night and the whole week for high school kids.

At 11 and small for his age, he should just be carrying a school or day pack. For kids that age we had them carry clothes, a sleeping mat, and sleeping bag, and then the counselors hiked in the food and tarps for the kids. Definitely a kid shouldn't be carrying a full pack of water!

I grew up backpacking and when I was away at college I still used just my school bag for bigger loads, I tied things onto it and it worked for overnights. If he loves it definitely look at REI for teen packs when he's a little bigger, you could consider womens bags but most now have curved straps for boobs so he may not fit those as well.

The smartwater bottles are actually a thing! Ultralight hikers try and keep their packs under 10 pounds, and they love smart water bottles because they are lighter than nalgenes and screw directly onto the most popular ultralight filter (the sawyer squeeze). They also hike in trail runners, which are just grippy tennis shoes. I'm not full ultralight but I feel best when I keep my weekend gear under 20 pounds with food and water. As you get gear it's worth looking at budget ultralight options if you expect your kid to stay on the smaller side. Just don't go for high-end ultralight with a kid (600 dollar tents are a thing), the gear is usually thinner and less durable.

Yep, small and definitely not gaining that puberty stage broadness and muscle, yet. 

FWIW I don't think they were going to give us gallons, but there are a bunch of younger boys who are new to the group. I happened to be standing in during a conversation with some of the dads organizing this hike, and they eyed me, mentioning maybe we could help a little with the water. I'm not sure how much they were suggesting, maybe they were being a little funny (they laughed a little), and I certainly had no concept of what we might be getting ourselves into. On the flip side, there are a handful of full sized 16-17 year old scouts on this trip that are capable of carrying heavy things joining on this camping trip. LOL.

I follow a few AT, PCT, etc., hikers online, and a lot of them use Smart Water bottles!

[CloudBee]

Oct 30, 2024 8:10:38 GMT -5 CrazyLucky said:

A couple of things... at 11, he's a Boy Scout, not a Cub Scout, right? The two troops we've been involved in aimed to camp every month during the school year, including December and January.
And one more thing, which I say very gently because I am in exactly the same boat as you. Cub Scouts was very family oriented. Only two campouts per year and family was invited/expected. Boy Scouts only have a few adults per trip (they meet the required ratios, but it's not like every camper has a parent there). I went on one trip and was the only female. DS let me know that he would prefer I not go anymore, because no one else's mom goes. If fitting in is a top priority, you might want to sit some of those hikes out.

Yes, Boy Scouts, not Cub. He's the newest (a few boys joined at the tail end of the spring after graduation from CS), and he's the smallest. They do try to do one camping trip per month.

I've been wondering how family oriented it is. There is one mom that I sense may be a single parent, who seems to do all of the background work for the troop. I can't remember her position in leadership, but she is at every meeting and every event. She also goes on every hike - possibly because she's got the organizational skills to make sure everyone loads their packs with the appropriate necessitates before taking off. But other than that, it seems to be just the dads. I'm wondering if I'm going to be a bit of a 3rd wheel, and if DS may suggest that DH go solo with him next time. Hearing your experiences, I may actually try and keep my distance at the far back of the pack with DH, let DS run ahead. Good advice. Thank you!

[CloudBee]

Thanks for all of your help!, everyone!

[waverly]

Oct 30, 2024 8:42:06 GMT -5 CloudBee said:

Oct 29, 2024 12:51:49 GMT -5 waverly said:

CloudBee , As a long time Cub Scout mom, I can honestly say that the camp outs were the bane of my existance. They always had them in fall and spring when it was freezing think 20-40 degrees at night. Once, it snowed so they did cancel that one. Due to the cold and presumably other factors it was quite common for families to leave in the middle of the night and a lot of people to be gone by the time I woke up at 6:30/ 7am. Once we figured that out, we felt a lot less guilty to leave early and sleep in a warm bed or not attend at all. Other than some boys making comments that DS never attends the camp outs that was the extent of a social situation. Nothing bad was ever said. There were lot of nuerodivergent boys in his den, so I guess he fit right in.

This is how we're all feeling. A bit overwhelmed paired with excitement for DS. They will be a few miles from the parking lots at either end, it's going to be chilly, we don't really have gear beyond simple day hike items, etc. We need to meet as a group early Saturday morning, then drive our own cars over an hour north into another state and an area I've never driven. LOL.

I will be curious to see how many boys participate in these overnight camping hikes in the coming months.

Yours is a bit more involved than ours, for one thing we don't live near the Appalachias so hikes were just fun little jaunts around the camp site type thing.

We didn't bridge to Boy Scouts though since DS definitely lost interest his last year. 

[karinothing]

I am surprised the younger scouts are doing overnight backpack trips. DS is 13 and even his age hasn't done the overnight backpacking trips yet. They do go camping once a month but do day hike and then camp near the car. In his troop they sometimes do a trip where you have the option of car camping or backpacking. So they start from the same location then one group goes farther on the hike and does backpacking camp and the other heads back to the campsite near the cars/campground.

ETA: There is a reason the high adventure age is 14 (and often 14 and 100lbs) and part of that is the ability to carry bags. 

[AdaraMarie]

My kid is an 11 year old crossover scout that has been in the troop since April. Her troop has an activity almost every month and she has been to almost all of them but they have never been backpacking. They have done car camping and overnights at a couple museums. I got her a day pack off Amazon for around $40 that she likes and for their trips she also brings a giant duffel bag with her tent and a million other things in it.
The amout of gear to try to get up front in scouts is rough and I was really overwhelmed at first.
I've decicded to make due with what we have or what we can get pretty cheap because I don't know how long she will be interested.
My DD is probably almost finished growing though- the young scouts in the boys' troop are so little! I can imagine where you're coming from.
My kid's first camp out was in the snow so I focused my energy and money on non-cotton clothing abd waterproof hiking boots. Another thing she really likes is an insulated metal mug with a handle for hot chocolate.

As far as family involvement is concerned, I haven't gone on any of their trips or outings. I tend to stick around at most meetings long enough to hear announcements (my kid won't remember to tell me anything) but otherwise try to stay out of the way/leave so my kid has a chance to open up. Generally only the scoutmaster and assistant scoutmasters go on the campouts so it would be pretty strange for your kid to have a both parents there. Since we're in a girls troop there is always at least one female leader on trips but it is very dad heavy for both the girl and boy troops. There are some female leaders on the boy's side but I think they are lower down and not SM or ASM.

I have learned a lot by hanging out on the BSA reddit page, would recommend.

[CloudBee]

The Nalgene arrived in the mail today and it was a surprise when he opened the box. Guys, he was so excited. He said “it’s one of those hiking bottles that all of the boys at scouts have!!” Apparently it’s a trendy item in his troop that they bring their water in during meetings. I had no idea, but he started rattling off names if boys who have them. He went to his bedroom and got some souvenir stickers we got on a recent trip out west, and immediately decorated his bottle.

Worth the $15!

[stemmie]

In DS's old troop, the younger scouts 5th and 6th graders tended to do more car camping in tents. They wanted kids to be First Class before doing the harder camping like float trips, cold weather, and legit backpacking. His troop was all about the Quality Unit stuff, so there was a troop camping event at least monthly on top of all the other stuff.

Troops have very different personalities. Our Advancement Chair was a woman and she went on a lot of outings. A lot of moms were merit badge counselors. Some troops have all male adult leadership.

Ditto everything about the boots being critical which is a bitch given how fast their feet grow. Our troop was pretty good about lending outgrown gear to new scouts coming in. Is that an option.