@@ Q about immigration, deportation, family separation

[neverfstop]

Just thinking this through....

Assume that two people who are in the US illegally have a child, who is granted birthright citizenship.  Trump comes along & arrests and threatens to deport the parents.

1- What happens to all these children? Other relatives? does the state take them into custody? Deported with their parents?  (I'd assume they could resist deportation b/c you can't deport a citizen, but....0

2- Do the children have any standing to sue and say they are being deprived of their rights (to parents)?

[Jalapeñomel]

The kids will go with them.

[mrsslocombe]

Nov 15, 2024 17:25:20 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

Just thinking this through....

Assume that two people who are in the US illegally have a child, who is granted birthright citizenship.  Trump comes along & arrests and threatens to deport the parents.

1- What happens to all these children? Other relatives? does the state take them into custody? Deported with their parents?  (I'd assume they could resist deportation b/c you can't deport a citizen, but....0

2- Do the children have any standing to sue and say they are being deprived of their rights (to parents)?

1-Trump has talked about deporting the kids as well, even if they are natural born citizens. And he wants to end birthright citizenship and denaturalize people. Which will be a legal fight but honestly, I expect them just to stick people on planes and not give a shit what the courts say. I don't even know that there is going to be time to try to get injunctions or prevent deportation. If the kids aren't deported, CPS will be overwhelmed with trying to place them with family or the foster care system.
2. I imagine there will be a lot of different lawsuits attempted, but ultimately this admin is just going to ignore it anyway. 

[StrawberryBlondie]

Ordinarily, I'd say that the child would go with them... But considering what happened during the last Trump administration, I think foster care and adoption by American citizen parents is a real possibility.

[wanderingback]

Not shitting on you OP, but I hope people recognize that people with children who are US citizens get deported now. It’s not just a Trump thing.
I am not an expert in deportation so hopefully someone else who is can chime in, but here is a resource that explains what currently happens -

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/us-citizen-children-impacted-immigration-enforcement#:~:text=Children%20may%20end%20up%20in,children%20(unless%20deemed%20unfit).

[loira]

In my experience the US gives zero fucks about keeping families together. Even if you are married to a US citizen, you are supposed to apply for residency from outside the US and that process can take up to 2 years. Many other countries like Canada and the UK allow for the non-citizen spouse to state their intent to apply for residency at the border and apply from within those countries, allowing families to live together (and the non-citizen spouse to work) while the application is being processed.

[neverfstop]

Nov 15, 2024 18:19:00 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Not shitting on you OP, but I hope people recognize that people with children who are US citizens get deported now. It’s not just a Trump thing.
I am not an expert in deportation so hopefully someone else who is can chime in, but here is a resource that explains what currently happens -

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/us-citizen-children-impacted-immigration-enforcement#:~:text=Children%20may%20end%20up%20in,children%20(unless%20deemed%20unfit).

Appreciate the info. wow, these numbers are horrifying...
From 2013 to 2018, ICE deported more than 231,000 people who reported having at least one U.S.-citizen child. In 2019, ICE deported 27,980 people with U.S.-born children

I know this is probably already happening, but it feels like Trump is threatening to take it to the next level.  

I guess, like OP's have said, is that any/all the things they plan to do are likely illegal and/or unconstitutional, but they DGAF....

[wanderingback]

Nov 15, 2024 17:34:39 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Ordinarily, I'd say that the child would go with them... But considering what happened during the last Trump administration, I think foster care and adoption by American citizen parents is a real possibility.

Yes, That is what happens now. The child goes with the parent or the parent arranges for care with someone while they are in detention before final deportation order. If not the child goes through the child welfare system. I think OP was asking if anything new/different would happen.

[StrawberryBlondie]

Nov 15, 2024 19:45:20 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Nov 15, 2024 17:34:39 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Ordinarily, I'd say that the child would go with them... But considering what happened during the last Trump administration, I think foster care and adoption by American citizen parents is a real possibility.

Yes, That is what happens now. The child goes with the parent or the parent arranges for care with someone while they are in detention before final deportation order. If not the child goes through the child welfare system. I think OP was asking if anything new/different would happen.

I was thinking more in the sense that the official policy would be "you can take your kid or they go into foster care."

[fernweh]

Nov 15, 2024 19:02:18 GMT -5 loira said:

In my experience the US gives zero fucks about keeping families together. Even if you are married to a US citizen, you are supposed to apply for residency from outside the US and that process can take up to 2 years. Many other countries like Canada and the UK allow for the non-citizen spouse to state their intent to apply for residency at the border and apply from within those countries, allowing families to live together (and the non-citizen spouse to work) while the application is being processed.

I have a former coworker who became a citizen. He married a woman in his home country and came back here while she applied for a visa. It was taking so long and the backlog got so bad during Covid he eventually just moved back to his country of origin to be with her. The estimate they were being given at the time was significantly longer than 2 years. In addition to being married to a citizen she was also high educated (an engineer I believe) but they did not care.

[wanderingback]

Nov 15, 2024 21:27:35 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Nov 15, 2024 19:45:20 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Yes, That is what happens now. The child goes with the parent or the parent arranges for care with someone while they are in detention before final deportation order. If not the child goes through the child welfare system. I think OP was asking if anything new/different would happen.

I was thinking more in the sense that the official policy would be "you can take your kid or they go into foster care."

Sorry, I’m not understanding. That’s essentially what happens now.

[wanderingback]

Nov 15, 2024 19:02:18 GMT -5 loira said:

In my experience the US gives zero fucks about keeping families together. Even if you are married to a US citizen, you are supposed to apply for residency from outside the US and that process can take up to 2 years. Many other countries like Canada and the UK allow for the non-citizen spouse to state their intent to apply for residency at the border and apply from within those countries, allowing families to live together (and the non-citizen spouse to work) while the application is being processed.

Oh yeah exactly. That process can take a very long time. The whole system is messed up.
So in Canada do you have to have a certain visa to enter the country with intention to marry? Or anyone can come in to Canada from any country and declare the intent to marry and get a visa then?

[sonrisa]

Nov 15, 2024 22:08:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Nov 15, 2024 19:02:18 GMT -5 loira said:

In my experience the US gives zero fucks about keeping families together. Even if you are married to a US citizen, you are supposed to apply for residency from outside the US and that process can take up to 2 years. Many other countries like Canada and the UK allow for the non-citizen spouse to state their intent to apply for residency at the border and apply from within those countries, allowing families to live together (and the non-citizen spouse to work) while the application is being processed.

Oh yeah exactly. That process can take a very long time. The whole system is messed up.
So in Canada do you have to have a certain visa to enter the country with intention to marry? Or anyone can come in to Canada from any country and declare the intent to marry and get a visa then?

Americans who get married overseas to a non-US citizen/non-Resident have to wait an additional two years outside of the country with their spouse (or the spouse must wait alone) before they can move to the US together. (It's a different process than people who apply for a fiancee visa who, once that is granted, are allowed to enter the US and marry the USC. They aren't expected to leave and live their first few years abroad).

According to Loira, if a Canadian marries an American in the US, they can then drive to the border and the American spouse can declare that they intend to apply for residency and proceed.

[wanderingback]

Nov 15, 2024 23:16:01 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Nov 15, 2024 22:08:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Oh yeah exactly. That process can take a very long time. The whole system is messed up.
So in Canada do you have to have a certain visa to enter the country with intention to marry? Or anyone can come in to Canada from any country and declare the intent to marry and get a visa then?

Americans who get married overseas to a non-US citizen/non-Resident have to wait an additional two years outside of the country with their spouse (or the spouse must wait alone) before they can move to the US together. (It's a different process than people who apply for a fiancee visa who, once that is granted, are allowed to enter the US and marry the USC. They aren't expected to leave and live their first few years abroad).

According to Loira, if a Canadian marries an American in the US, they can then drive to the border and the American spouse can declare that they intend to apply for residency and proceed.

Yes I know the process for the U.S.

I was just wondering if in Canada you get a visa before or you really just can do it on arrival? Usually airlines will make you prove you have some sort of visa before they allow you to board a flight if you are from certain countries (my ex from Cameroon was actually working on trying to move to Canada so I was a bit familiar with what he was going through), so that’s why I was asking if you can just say you intend to marry on arrival and that’s it.

[loira]

Nov 15, 2024 22:08:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Nov 15, 2024 19:02:18 GMT -5 loira said:

In my experience the US gives zero fucks about keeping families together. Even if you are married to a US citizen, you are supposed to apply for residency from outside the US and that process can take up to 2 years. Many other countries like Canada and the UK allow for the non-citizen spouse to state their intent to apply for residency at the border and apply from within those countries, allowing families to live together (and the non-citizen spouse to work) while the application is being processed.

Oh yeah exactly. That process can take a very long time. The whole system is messed up.
So in Canada do you have to have a certain visa to enter the country with intention to marry? Or anyone can come in to Canada from any country and declare the intent to marry and get a visa then?

No, in Canada there is no such thing as a fiancé visa. If you've not already got some other visa (work, student) you can enter on a visitor visa, get married and then you can begin your application for residency through family sponsorship. My H and I both flew back to Canada to get married after living in S. Korea and the only thing border control said to us was "congratulations! if you're planning on living here, make sure you apply for residency before your 6 month visitor visa is up or apply to extend it." Citizens of certain countries may have to apply for a visitor visa to Canada from their own country, and sometimes that can take awhile depending on backlog at whichever consulate you apply from. 

sonrisa is correct, you can also rock up to the border already married to a Canadian and state your intent to apply for residency. They usually want to make sure you are aware of the restrictions on your visitor visa, but also that you know where to find the appropriate information to apply. After we decided not to live in Texas (for the aforementioned separation reasons plus Trump, guns, healthcare), my H drove back up to BC and just told them he was married to me and was moving here. I was waiting for him on the other side of customs, but he had a copy of our marriage certificate etc in case. Border control was mostly concerned with having him fill out all the paperwork for importing our car. 

[dontlook]

Nov 15, 2024 22:02:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Nov 15, 2024 21:27:35 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

I was thinking more in the sense that the official policy would be "you can take your kid or they go into foster care."

Sorry, I’m not understanding. That’s essentially what happens now.

I hope I can say this with enough care and consideration- I think so many Americans are just now figuring out how fucked up this country is. Trump is stating a lot of things out loud that are in fact American policy. Will he ramp up deportations- absolutely. But we as a country are already ripping apart families. This is a part of why he won. People know this is already happening and ok with it happening more frequently.

People feel politicians are crooked liars that are only out to get richer. No one cares that Trump’s cabinet is filled with people that say that with their whole chest and don’t either bother lying.

[wanderingback]

Nov 16, 2024 0:44:23 GMT -5 loira said:

Nov 15, 2024 22:08:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Oh yeah exactly. That process can take a very long time. The whole system is messed up.
So in Canada do you have to have a certain visa to enter the country with intention to marry? Or anyone can come in to Canada from any country and declare the intent to marry and get a visa then?

No, in Canada there is no such thing as a fiancé visa. If you've not already got some other visa (work, student) you can enter on a visitor visa, get married and then you can begin your application for residency through family sponsorship. My H and I both flew back to Canada to get married after living in S. Korea and the only thing border control said to us was "congratulations! if you're planning on living here, make sure you apply for residency before your 6 month visitor visa is up or apply to extend it." Citizens of certain countries may have to apply for a visitor visa to Canada from their own country, and sometimes that can take awhile depending on backlog at whichever consulate you apply from. 

sonrisa is correct, you can also rock up to the border already married to a Canadian and state your intent to apply for residency. They usually want to make sure you are aware of the restrictions on your visitor visa, but also that you know where to find the appropriate information to apply. After we decided not to live in Texas (for the aforementioned separation reasons plus Trump, guns, healthcare), my H drove back up to BC and just told them he was married to me and was moving here. I was waiting for him on the other side of customs, but he had a copy of our marriage certificate etc in case. Border control was mostly concerned with having him fill out all the paperwork for importing our car. 

Ok got it! So you do have to have a visitor visa. Thank you!

[wanderingback]

Nov 16, 2024 7:53:20 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 15, 2024 22:02:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Sorry, I’m not understanding. That’s essentially what happens now.

I hope I can say this with enough care and consideration- I think so many Americans are just now figuring out how fucked up this country is. Trump is stating a lot of things out loud that are in fact American policy. Will he ramp up deportations- absolutely. But we as a country are already ripping apart families. This is a part of why he won. People know this is already happening and ok with it happening more frequently.

People feel politicians are crooked liars that are only out to get richer. No one cares that Trump’s cabinet is filled with people that say that with their whole chest and don’t either bother lying.

100%

[wildrice]

Nov 16, 2024 7:53:20 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 15, 2024 22:02:47 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Sorry, I’m not understanding. That’s essentially what happens now.

I hope I can say this with enough care and consideration- I think so many Americans are just now figuring out how fucked up this country is. Trump is stating a lot of things out loud that are in fact American policy. Will he ramp up deportations- absolutely. But we as a country are already ripping apart families. This is a part of why he won. People know this is already happening and ok with it happening more frequently.

People feel politicians are crooked liars that are only out to get richer. No one cares that Trump’s cabinet is filled with people that say that with their whole chest and don’t either bother lying.

Agreed. I also think most people have no idea how immigration really works or how complicated and expensive it is. It's not simple at all to just "come here legally!", especially for people without financial means.

I knew this in general terms, but it was eye opening going through the citizen process with my H - and he had already done the worst part of obtaining a green card before I met him! He got his citizenship the year before we married, and multiple people asked me why he didn't just wait and get it automatically when we married. Because it doesn't work that way? People just have no idea.

[sonrisa]

Nov 16, 2024 0:44:23 GMT -5 loira said:

in Canada there is no such thing as a fiancé visa. If you've not already got some other visa (work, student) you can enter on a visitor visa, get married and then you can begin your application for residency through family sponsorship. My H and I both flew back to Canada to get married after living in S. Korea and the only thing border control said to us was "congratulations! if you're planning on living here, make sure you apply for residency before your 6 month visitor visa is up or apply to extend it." Citizens of certain countries may have to apply for a visitor visa to Canada from their own country, and sometimes that can take awhile depending on backlog at whichever consulate you apply from. 
[
br]

whereas if you do that in the US - enter on a visitor’s visa with the intent to marry - you can get slapped with immigration fraud .

[sonrisa]

As I have said for years, immigration is where some of the worst civil and human rights violations happen in the US. We got a glimpse as a country with Trump’s family separation policies last time. but it was only one piece of it.

It’s important to remember family separation as we move into this next Trump term. It was deliberately cruel and caused lasting damage to people that was never undone and cannot be.

That is what a Trump policy looks like.

People may be outraged, but that outrage fades and the damage continues. The next administration can’t fix it. I don’t want to hear any ‘’if he breaks it maybe it’ll wake people up and they’ll organize/fix it and build a better system.’ Or silver lining bullshit as if we didn’t learn this already.

That isn’t what happens.

[audette]

Nov 16, 2024 9:38:41 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Nov 16, 2024 7:53:20 GMT -5 dontlook said:

I hope I can say this with enough care and consideration- I think so many Americans are just now figuring out how fucked up this country is. Trump is stating a lot of things out loud that are in fact American policy. Will he ramp up deportations- absolutely. But we as a country are already ripping apart families. This is a part of why he won. People know this is already happening and ok with it happening more frequently.

People feel politicians are crooked liars that are only out to get richer. No one cares that Trump’s cabinet is filled with people that say that with their whole chest and don’t either bother lying.

Agreed. I also think most people have no idea how immigration really works or how complicated and expensive it is. It's not simple at all to just "come here legally!", especially for people without financial means.

I knew this in general terms, but it was eye opening going through the citizen process with my H - and he had already done the worst part of obtaining a green card before I met him! He got his citizenship the year before we married, and multiple people asked me why he didn't just wait and get it automatically when we married. Because it doesn't work that way? People just have no idea.

I am a resident alien.  It became very apparent, _very_ quickly, after moving here that few people know of the headaches, heartaches, and cost to deal with immigration.  I went thru the process with nearly every possibly privilege possible, and it still cost a bundle, took ages, and they still screwed things up with my paperwork. 


We've talked timeline in this thread already, but the cost factor also prices it out of possible for many.

[wawa]

Nov 17, 2024 0:22:52 GMT -5 audette said:

Nov 16, 2024 9:38:41 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Agreed. I also think most people have no idea how immigration really works or how complicated and expensive it is. It's not simple at all to just "come here legally!", especially for people without financial means.

I knew this in general terms, but it was eye opening going through the citizen process with my H - and he had already done the worst part of obtaining a green card before I met him! He got his citizenship the year before we married, and multiple people asked me why he didn't just wait and get it automatically when we married. Because it doesn't work that way? People just have no idea.

I am a resident alien.  It became very apparent, _very_ quickly, after moving here that few people know of the headaches, heartaches, and cost to deal with immigration.  I went thru the process with nearly every possibly privilege possible, and it still cost a bundle, took ages, and they still screwed things up with my paperwork. 


We've talked timeline in this thread already, but the cost factor also prices it out of possible for many.

working with quite a few people over the years on H1B visas and similar, just from second hand observations, it's clear the entire process is looney tunes.  I wish more people understood.  But I also know that people who have struggled through the whole system and then somehow have zero grace for undocumented people, so who knows if understanding would help.  I assume it's the same weird "I had to suffer, so you do to!" mentality you get around college loans and bad parenting.

[livinitup]

There is a lot of reporting today that “Trump confirmed he’s going to declare a national emergency to activate the military” to deport immigrants.

Don’t you need a national emergency to declare one?

Do we have any history of a U.S. president declaring a national emergency when … it was not ?

(Am I just being silly & of course the president can declare an emergency at any time for any reason - as long as Congress says a-okay, President.)

[laladypoet]

can melania go too? and vance's wife?

[basilosaurus]

Nov 18, 2024 13:32:36 GMT -5 livinitup said:

There is a lot of reporting today that “Trump confirmed he’s going to declare a national emergency to activate the military” to deport immigrants.

Don’t you need a national emergency to declare one?

Do we have any history of a U.S. president declaring a national emergency when … it was not ?

(Am I just being silly & of course the president can declare an emergency at any time for any reason - as long as Congress says a-okay, President.)

I suspect this will be yet another norm that existed unquestioned until he came along. I think the vague "threat to safety" will be the justification if something is actually required.