FMLA experiences

[Susie]

My dad is having a hip replacement soon, and since he is widowed, fairly socially isolated, and lives in a different state from both my brother and I, this creates some caregiving challenges.  We are all 3-5 hours' drive apart from one another.

At the outset when this was scheduled (August), Bro talked a big game about how he was going to take time to cover this under FMLA, so it would all be fine.  He is an RN and was a bedside nurse in various units from about 2008 until he was promoted into some sort of nursing management role in 2023 (I don't know the details, just that he references being "in management" a lot).  He's been at the same hospital the whole time, so he is definitely not a new employee.

I knew Bro's offer was likely too good to be true, so around October, I tried to set up a schedule for who was taking which days/weeks of caretaking so I could plan my entire family's life and my work life around when I'd be gone.  I work FT+, MH works FT, we have two school age kids with activities and schedules, a "teenage" big dog, and we will also be watching my dad's "teenage" dog during this time, so we have a pretty full plate as a family.

My brother said he couldn't answer bc he couldn't apply for FMLA until 30 days from the surgery (is this typical?), and he also didn't know if it would be approved (this doesn't seem accurate).  

<Concern creeps in>

A week or two ago, my dad roughly outlined for me that my brother said he wanted to be there for the hospital days (surgery is Wed. 12/4), but he didn't know how long Bro would stay.  Could be Th. 12/5, Fri 12/6, Sat 12/7, Sun 12/8?  I'd be on for the 2nd week, from [date in that range] until 12/13, and an uncle would take the 3rd week, picking up from me. 

By 11/19, and still crickets on when I need to arrive, I started pushing harder for dates.  I can't do both "easy breezy" and also promise reliability to all the people who are relying on me! 

My dad said I should plan to come Sat. 12/7.  Fine.  Can do.

Today my brother says he's "still working on the FMLA. apparently the doctor has not responded to my FMLA company yet so i am working on that today."

He is notorious for flaking, and we've already gone from "I've got this" to like ... a couple days at most.  So this all has me very nervous that I'm going to end up having to completely juggle all my plans to cover for him.

I can't figure out why we're talking about FMLA for this short a period of time in the first place.  He usually works 3 x 12 hr shifts/week, or 2 x 8 hr and 2 x 12 hr. so he would be able to cover Wed. surgery to the weekend with a likely max of 3 work days off.  Possibly less if he scheduled himself for fewer, longer shifts that week, and/or shifts earlier in the week.  

All this talk about an "FMLA company" also seems ... like maybe we don't have all our acronyms right.  I'm wondering if the problem is with the actual leave approval, or if this is about compensation/benefits.

Is PTO not an option?  Swapping days?  Nothing else can get this done in this kind of setting?

My work life is totally different.  I'm in a small firm (<50 employees, FMLA has never been applicable), I'm now self employed, and I can work remotely, so nursing in a hospital is totally different.  I do understand that.  But I'm so frustrated with trying to schedule this, and how it can possibly be THIS difficult.  Does anyone have any insight on what might be going on here?  

I have to imagine this isn't the first time I'll encounter this with Bro as my dad ages.

[Roc A Bee]

This sounds…off.

In my experience FMLA can be applied after the event and it just saves your job, doesn’t pay you. So we still take PTO in order to be paid.

[hermione]

I don't know the ins and outs of FMLA but my understanding is that an employee needs to provide at least 30 days notice of intent to use it, not that they have have to wait until 30 days prior.

[hermione]

Nov 21, 2024 12:04:59 GMT -5 Roc A Bee said:

This sounds…off.

In my experience FMLA can be applied after the event and it just saves your job, doesn’t pay you. So we still take PTO in order to be paid.

And, yes, this. FMLA doesn't pay you, it just protects your job. So using it for a few days seems...odd. Was your brother planning to stay for your dad's full recovery?

[fluffycookie]

Ignore me! I had FMLA and STD mixed up.  MH may have taken FMLA. I do recall my surgeon filling out paperwork for him so that he could be approved to work from home for 2 weeks.

[meanie]

FMLA just ensures you keep your job, this would be documented and approved through his company. Maybe he applied for short term disability to get paid during FMLA, that would be done through an outside company (my company uses Prudential).

I applied for both well before my time out, so the 30 day rule doesn't ring true at least in my experience.

I know PTO is a bit different in the medical world than it is in the corporate world, so he could be right - maybe someone here who works in that sector will weigh in.

My dad just had a hip replacement and the first week or so my mom helped him a lot, but after that he was getting around on his own. If your brother isn't able to help after you leave can you set up meal delivery? He will probably be ok on his own if he has a good setup with a place to rest and whatever he needs close at hand.

[mcsangel2]

Ask your bro if he's at least already put in for the pto for those days. Because regardless of using FMLA or not (which he shouldn't have to for such a short period but okay), he's gonna absolutely be require to use his pto for it. If it were me, I'd be losing my temper and demand to know if he's got the time off lined up or not.

[lavenderblue]

Not an expert, but I know that at least at my company, FMLA runs concurrently with any leave and is simply for job protection, but it does need to be approved. You can also take the full 12 weeks, part of the 12 weeks, or even intermittently. Maybe he is anticipating needing more than just the initial few days and wants to have his ducks in a row? But that should be completely separate from any PTO requests. Maybe he's confusing Short Term Disability with FMLA? And even that, most companies that I have worked for, you don't even qualify for STD until you've been out of work for a week.

[ssmjlm]

Most of our FMLA requests are for extended periods of being out when all leave could potentially be exhausted and they need job protection.

I don't think for 3 days that would be necessary. I don't know if his company uses FMLA because it's a "family" leave request instead of FMLA under federal protections.

[mommyatty]

At my old company, we indeed had a company that administered short term disability and FMLA. We did get paid, BUT it’s pretty standard that you have to take the first 5-10 days as PTO or sick leave. Only after that many days did the short term disability benefit kick in. So if he’s going to be there less than a week, he probably doesn’t need to go through this FMLA company, he just needs to ask for PTO.

[Susie]

Nov 21, 2024 12:08:13 GMT -5 hermione said:

Nov 21, 2024 12:04:59 GMT -5 Roc A Bee said:

This sounds…off.

In my experience FMLA can be applied after the event and it just saves your job, doesn’t pay you. So we still take PTO in order to be paid.

And, yes, this. FMLA doesn't pay you, it just protects your job. So using it for a few days seems...odd. Was your brother planning to stay for your dad's full recovery?

Back in August he was talking like he was going to cover the whole thing, but not since.  He's currently scheduled into the care rotation to cover just 12/4 to 12/7.

And yeah, since FMLA only protects you from termination, I can't figure out why we are talking about that over a 3 day period.  Why would a 15 year employee be worried about termination for taking 3 week days - not even weekends or holidays! - and with plenty of notice?  Why not just... take 3 days of PTO and save the stress?  Or schedule your shifts differently?  Or SOMETHING?  

But I thought maybe I might be missing something context specific to nursing?

[wanderingback]

Maybe he talked to HR and made it sound like he might have to care for your dad for more than a few days, like he might have to care for him again in a month so they recommended FMLA as an option and job protection? And maybe your brother is confused about his options/what HR told him?

As someone who is asked to fill out FMLA and leave paperwork pretty regularly it is all confusing to me and different companies have different policies and half the time I think to myself, that doesn’t make sense, but I don’t ask questions and just fill out what my patients ask me to!

[waverly]

3 days + can be applicable under FMLA. It can kick in for 3 days or more. It’s job protection so my thought is healthcare is notoriously jerks about time off so maybe that is why. I assume this has much more to do with his job than anything else.

If he doesn’t show up then you have your answer that it was all BS so he can avoid helping. But unfortunately by then you’ve already been blindsided. I would make a plan A and a plan B.

[Susie]

Nov 21, 2024 12:12:16 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

Maybe he's confusing Short Term Disability with FMLA? And even that, most companies that I have worked for, you don't even qualify for STD until you've been out of work for a week.

Yeah, my firm offers an employer-paid STD policy that has a week waiting period.  I remember that from when I took maternity leaves.  

Can you even use STD when you are the caregiver, not the person recovering from the medical event?  I don't know.

[Saudade]

I think there is some "lost in translation" between all the different pieces.

Many people don't know that FMLA can be use for intermittent leave (ex: random migraines that pop up but are hugely debilitating)

His lack of confirmation may partially be due to schedules? This can be a weak excuse. Our schedules were put out for 6 week blocks but at the last minute. You never knew if your PTO was approved until the schedule was out. Made it impossible to plan life in >6 week intervals. When I had something scheduled a year away that was mandatory for school, I wasn't guaranteed to be off until 6 weeks before I left. It was so frustrating and demoralizing. You also weren't guaranteed the entire time if they couldn't find coverage.

If he is in mgmt is he really working 3-12s? I know some places have mgmt that does that but I've never worked anywhere that has had that. No one in management worked anything other than 7-3 (or some normal daytime variation). But if he is in mgmt it should be easier to "get the time off".

Frankly I think he's withholding information from you, likely because he doesn't want to commit, but possibly due to other reasons he isn't being forthcoming about.

[lavenderblue]

Nov 21, 2024 12:18:34 GMT -5 Susie said:

Nov 21, 2024 12:12:16 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

Maybe he's confusing Short Term Disability with FMLA? And even that, most companies that I have worked for, you don't even qualify for STD until you've been out of work for a week.

Yeah, my firm offers an employer-paid STD policy that has a week waiting period.  I remember that from when I took maternity leaves.  

Can you even use STD when you are the caregiver, not the person recovering from the medical event?  I don't know.

I just looked it up because I didn't know the answer, and at least my employers STD policy does not cover when a family member is sick, only the employee.

[wildrice]

Nov 21, 2024 12:18:34 GMT -5 Susie said:

Nov 21, 2024 12:12:16 GMT -5 lavenderblue said:

Maybe he's confusing Short Term Disability with FMLA? And even that, most companies that I have worked for, you don't even qualify for STD until you've been out of work for a week.

Yeah, my firm offers an employer-paid STD policy that has a week waiting period.  I remember that from when I took maternity leaves.  

Can you even use STD when you are the caregiver, not the person recovering from the medical event?  I don't know.

I probably should know this, but I don't think you can use STD when it's not your own disability, no. 

FMLA is probably not required to take off 3 days, but it's never a bad idea to put in for it, especially when it's something where recovery is up in the air and you may need more time. It protects you from getting into trouble if 3 days turns into 2 weeks and then a month later you need off again because something else came up (follow up appointments, complications, etc). We do have people take FMLA for just a few days so that's not uncommon. That said, if he isn't approved for FMLA there is no reason why he shouldn't be able to just take regular PTO/sick time anyway. 

We do use an outside company to administer FMLA so that part isn't weird, it probably just means they don't have the bandwidth within their internal HR so they outsourced it. 

I would have assumed healthcare staff would have to put in for time off more than 2 weeks in advance, so I am surprised he doesn't already have his schedule for that week. I don't know your relationship but I don't think it's out of line to call him out at this point - you need to know, so he needs to talk to his supervisor and/or HR and get an answer. The approval from the outside company should not be holding them up for whether they approve PTO those days or not.

[Susie]

Nov 21, 2024 12:22:53 GMT -5 Saudade said:

If he is in mgmt is he really working 3-12s? I know some places have mgmt that does that but I've never worked anywhere that has had that. No one in management worked anything other than 7-3 (or some normal daytime variation). But if he is in mgmt it should be easier to "get the time off".

Frankly I think he's withholding information from you, likely because he doesn't want to commit, but possibly due to other reasons he isn't being forthcoming about.

I'm pretty sure yes re: 3-12s.  He has the frustrating (to me) habit of only ever calling on the phone on week days when he is off, because he has down time and he's bored.  His wife works typical Mon-Fri hours, his toddler has daycare, or maybe stays home at his option, and he has nothing else going on.  So that's when he calls and chats... and chats... and chats...

My dad can take these calls because he's retired.  He and I have pieced together that they happen like 2 days/week, usually late AM, and often (Mon or Tues) and (Fri).

I, otoh, work Mon-Fri!  Dude!  You wouldn't want me to call you and ramble while you're working, right?  So........ 2+2 =....?

[klee23]

Nov 21, 2024 12:15:10 GMT -5 Susie said:

Nov 21, 2024 12:08:13 GMT -5 hermione said:

And, yes, this. FMLA doesn't pay you, it just protects your job. So using it for a few days seems...odd. Was your brother planning to stay for your dad's full recovery?

Back in August he was talking like he was going to cover the whole thing, but not since.  He's currently scheduled into the care rotation to cover just 12/4 to 12/7.

And yeah, since FMLA only protects you from termination, I can't figure out why we are talking about that over a 3 day period.  Why would a 15 year employee be worried about termination for taking 3 week days - not even weekends or holidays! - and with plenty of notice?  Why not just... take 3 days of PTO and save the stress?  Or schedule your shifts differently?  Or SOMETHING?  

But I thought maybe I might be missing something context specific to nursing?

I can't speak to the legalities of leave but the hospital system I used to work for was very rigid on time off. You weren't able to "just" take PTO off. For example, after 12 years, I could request 2 full weeks & 5 individual days for 2025 in November in 2024 (sitting with the entire department taking turns choosing). Dates closed after 3 employees were off on a given day. That was the only PTO that was guaranteed to be approved for the following year (despite accumulating 5 weeks/year).

Applying for FMLA would guaranteed his time off couldn't br restricted by his employer, even for a short amount of time.

His effort sounds questionable but I could see him not knowing if his time off was approved (even if he's in management heck still answers to someone) so his boss probably needs to cover his time off if they assign the shift and it isn't self-scheduled. With three 12s or two 8/12s I would wonder if he's a nursing supervisor or charge RN that needs to overlap floor nursing shifts.

ETA- calling off 3 days in a row if without MD excuse would have been a written warning which is what we'd have to do if PTO wasn't approved

[cjcouple]

13 states do offer paid FMLA. CT has it. It's funded with 1% of our payroll taxes.

My coworker used it in conjunction with the time off our company offers for caregiving of her uncle.

I don't know specifics for application/requirements.

[tiki]

It sounds like he doesn't have PTO he can use (or it wouldn't be approved) so he needs FMLA with the paperwork from a doctor to force his employer's hand.

[cricketwife]

Susie, I say all this with love as someone who is also very type A and who also has unreliable/utterly useless family members. He will never be you. He will never be reliable. He will never give you what you need to plan your life, take care of your family, fulfill your work obligations,etc. To keep your sanity, you need to tell your father what YOU can do. "Hey, Dad. I can arrive X and leave on Y. I have tried to get answers from brother about A, B, C, but I haven't heard back. You will have to sort out the other dates with brother and uncle or find another solution. I will be there from X-Y."

[lust2hart]

Nov 21, 2024 12:49:03 GMT -5 cricketwife said:

Susie, I say all this with love as someone who is also very type A and who also has unreliable/utterly useless family members. He will never be you. He will never be reliable. He will never give you what you need to plan your life, take care of your family, fulfill your work obligations,etc. To keep your sanity, you need to tell your father what YOU can do. "Hey, Dad. I can arrive X and leave on Y. I have tried to get answers from brother about A, B, C, but I haven't heard back. You will have to sort out the other dates with brother and uncle or find another solution. I will be there from X-Y."

Agree wholeheartedly! Your dad has asked you to come up on 12/7 and you said you can. That's all you need to worry about (easier said than done, I know!!). You do not have to save the day if your brother flakes. 

[mustardseed2007]

I think he is talking about STD and not FMLA, the tip off being that he's talking to a company and that it might not be approved.

He should be entitled to unpaid leave to take care of a family member under the FMLA that should not have a complicated approval process but it would probably have a form involved and your father's doctor signing off.

The STD is going to be company specific.

If he's in a state with paid FMLA, this could be a different answer if that state has outsourced managing the paid FMLA to a company? But I doubt it. I am pretty sure he's talking about STD here.

Also most Short term disability policies within the company will only pay for the employee's own disability not taking care of a family member, but it will differ depending on the employer.

[Susie]

Nov 21, 2024 12:49:03 GMT -5 cricketwife said:

Susie, I say all this with love as someone who is also very type A and who also has unreliable/utterly useless family members. He will never be you. He will never be reliable. He will never give you what you need to plan your life, take care of your family, fulfill your work obligations,etc. To keep your sanity, you need to tell your father what YOU can do. "Hey, Dad. I can arrive X and leave on Y. I have tried to get answers from brother about A, B, C, but I haven't heard back. You will have to sort out the other dates with brother and uncle or find another solution. I will be there from X-Y."

I know that you are right.  It's just hard to imagine telling my dad, yes, I know you're at the hospital ready for discharge and need someone to drive you home.  But I can't help, I'm not scheduled to arrive for 1-2 more days.

This would have been easier if bro never got involved, because it honestly wouldn't have been that much harder to plan to be gone 9-10 days vs. 6.  The lead time is where the magic happens.  The problem comes when I arranged everything to be home through 12/6, and now I have parent teacher conferences, appointments, a work commitment, etc. on days in that range, and *poof* NOW all that stuff becomes a "maybe-conflict."

Bro likes to brag/announced that he "pulled [it] off" - "it" could be anything, whether it's getting time off, making it to a holiday, whatever.  It's always last minute.  He never give advance notice of when he's arriving to places, whether he's coming, etc.  I know I shouldn't expect this to be different, but goddamnit I can't work in this ecosystem of having to collaborate with him.

[livinitup]

If your brother has a history of “flaking” then I would say he is flaking now.

Which is really unfair and rage inducing for you because it sounds like he is setting the groundwork to flake.

1st: Yes, most employees request PTO (paid time off, vacation, or personal) days when they need time off. This tracks with an employee in a hospital system. It is usually required that an employee exhausts their PTO bank before they request FLMA. FLMA just protects your job (it doesn’t pay you or approve your time, although planning is always a good idea) for when you take qualified leave.

So, a valid question is -> Brother, why aren’t you taking your PTO time? Are you out of PTO?

[jinkies]

Are you talking to him on the phone or texting? I'd recommend a phone call because it's harder to selectively answer questions on the phone.

I feel like you really need to push him: "I have made plans around being at Dad's on 12/7. I cannot come earlier. If you don't get the FMLA approval, will you be able to take PTO? If not, then you need to figure out who will be taking your place. This is less than two weeks away. We need to get this finalized" And see what he says?

It is extremely unfair of him to not make committed plans this close to the date. Do not let him dump his problem into your lap.

[yaga]

Nov 21, 2024 12:55:53 GMT -5 mustardseed2007 said:

I think he is talking about STD and not FMLA, the tip off being that he's talking to a company and that it might not be approved.

This isn't necessarily the case. The hospital I work for now and the one I worked for before had separate companies that dealt with FMLA leave.

RE using PTO, I am submitting my time off requests for all of 2025 right now. If I needed another week off to take care of someone or for my own medical leave, I would apply for FMLA because I would not get approved for the time off in advance, even if I had the time. Maybe a day or two, but not in the same 4 week schedule and definitely not in the same week. Absolutely not for a week. And because my job is trying a new schedule request system, we don't know our schedules until about 3.5 weeks before the new 4 week schedule period begins.

I'm a staff nurse though, not in management. I would assume management has much more leeway since they don't impact staffing ratios on the floor.

[krystee]

I think you need to be firm and direct with him. “These are the dates I am coming. These are the days you committed to. You need to either be there or find alternate care because at this late stage, my schedule is completely full those days.”

[lust2hart]

Nov 21, 2024 13:00:02 GMT -5 Susie said:

Nov 21, 2024 12:49:03 GMT -5 cricketwife said:

Susie, I say all this with love as someone who is also very type A and who also has unreliable/utterly useless family members. He will never be you. He will never be reliable. He will never give you what you need to plan your life, take care of your family, fulfill your work obligations,etc. To keep your sanity, you need to tell your father what YOU can do. "Hey, Dad. I can arrive X and leave on Y. I have tried to get answers from brother about A, B, C, but I haven't heard back. You will have to sort out the other dates with brother and uncle or find another solution. I will be there from X-Y."

Bro likes to brag/announced that he "pulled [it] off" - "it" could be anything, whether it's getting time off, making it to a holiday, whatever.  It's always last minute.  He never give advance notice of when he's arriving to places, whether he's coming, etc.  I know I shouldn't expect this to be different, but goddamnit I can't work in this ecosystem of having to collaborate with him.

With this info, I extra-encourage you to not spend any more energy on this. If he has a history of swooping in last minute to be the hero, I would bet my next paycheck that he'll make it happen. 

It sounds like you are aware of this weird power play but still get sucked into it. I have a SIL like this. Every damn year she says she doesn't know if she'll be able to make it for Christmas (or, honestly, any family gathering). And every damn year she's there. At first we'd all ask her why and try to talk her into committing to showing up; but nowadays, we're all, *shrug*, we'll see you if we see you. She still does it, but the rest of us no longer waste our time engaging with it.