S/O: What does it mean to make partner?

[noodleoo]

I know a lot of you are lawyers and talk about this, but not being in the field, I don't know what it means. How do you become a partner? What are the perks? Why is it such a big deal? Why does having kids jeopardize your chances of making partner (isn't that discrimination)? What happens if you are partner track and you don't get it? Is it like not getting tenure?

Just curious.

[ohgillian]

Oct 15, 2012 14:24:41 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

I know a lot of you are lawyers and talk about this, but not being in the field, I don't know what it means. How do you become a partner? What are the perks? Why is it such a big deal? Why does having kids jeopardize your chances of making partner (isn't that discrimination)? What happens if you are partner track and you don't get it? Is it like not getting tenure?

Just curious.

I'm so glad you asked this.

[Deleted]

You become a partner because the partnership (or some group of the partnership) votes and decides that they'd like you to become partner.

The perks are that you earn WAY more money and have pretty decent lifetime job security. Associates are paid on a salary basis, while partners are paid a portion of the firm's profits at some interval. So at a biglaw firm, for example, a very senior associate will top out at $280,000 a year salary plus whatever bonus the firm is paying that year, while partners will get a stipend of something along the lines of $300,000 a year to cover their living expenses, and will also get some amount of the firm's profits. That amount can be fairly modest if you're talking about junior or not very lucrative partners, but can go up into the many millions for the fancy partners.

As a partner, you're usually also expected to have your own clients and bring in business to the firm.

Having kids jeopardizes making partner because it is very hard to bill the number of hours you need to bill to impress the partnership while you have to worry about the fact that the nanny can't work late tonight or the kid's birthday party is today or the kid is sick.

What happens if you don't make it depends on the firm. Many firms don't have tracks other than partner track -- if you and the firm know you're unlikely to make partner, you're shown the door (either by being laid off, or by making it clear that you should be looking for other opportunities but you have time to do so). And some firms you can stay an associate longer, but that's a dead-end job so it is probably better to get out before other places don't want to hire you (they know that a 14th year associate was not partner material). There's also something called counsel which is in between partner and associate, but firms tend not to have tons of them, and they aren't ideal positions for everyone because you tend to be someone's bitch forever, are seen as someone who didn't make partner, and don't make as much money as a partner even though you may work as hard. But in some cases counsel can be a good compromise.

[noodleoo]

What does 'in-house' mean? So basically as a lawyer, you enter a firm on partner track and if you don't make it, it is like failing? Can you restart on a partner track at a new firm, or are you too "old" for that?

Also, how can they get away with not making female lawyers with kids partners? Wouldn't that be pretty blatant discrimination and wouldn't a bunch of female lawyers be able to sue for that?

ETA: Oops, posted before V's answer about the hours. So, what do female lawyers with families do? Do you still have to make billable hours once you are partner or do you get permanent job security and not have as stringent requirements on hours?

[UnderProtest]

In the accounting field, the retirement benefits for partners are extraordinary, something like full salary and health insurance. Also, part of the partner process is that you actually have to buy into the partnership. But you have to be asked to join the partnership.

[Susie]

I am guessing some of the comments in my post might have sparked this?

In any event, just to add to what esquirefish said (all of which is true), it's a big deal for a number of reasons. Being a "partner" gives you a lot more credibility with clients/prospective clients in terms of business development. Since bringing in business is a big part of advancement in private practice, that matters. It's also a pretty universally understood status within the profession. Some firms have places for associates who fail to make partner, others don't. Mine does, but it means you spend your entire career there with essentially no advancement (or hope of it), just churning away. Depressing. Others firms don't even offer that. Getting tenure is how I analogize it to my mom and academia dad, who are antsy for the grandkids they don't have because of my pursuit of it.

In order to make it, you generally need to be pretty impressive in the years leading up to being up for partner. It's really difficult to perform that well, to have your billings high enough, with a maternity leave, sleepless nights, etc. thrown in. So no, you aren't directly penalized for having a baby, but indirectly? Sure.

[noodleoo]

How many people make partner out of those who are partner track? I'm assuming not everyone does. What % do they take? Again, I'm just curious. Especially since I thought there was basically an over supply of law school graduates, so doesn't that make it even harder/more competitive?

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2012 14:41:59 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

What does 'in-house' mean? So basically as a lawyer, you enter a firm on partner track and if you don't make it, it is like failing? Can you restart on a partner track at a new firm, or are you too "old" for that?

Also, how can they get away with not making female lawyers with kids partners? Wouldn't that be pretty blatant discrimination and wouldn't a bunch of female lawyers be able to sue for that?

In-house means that you work for a company. Like, General Electric will higher outside counsel (i.e., law firms) to do a lot of their work, but they also have their own lawyers on their staff who do various things (including but certainly not limited to liaising with outside counsel).

It is sort of a failing, though not everyone wants to make partner. A lot of people do, but very few will anyway. At my old firm, something like 5-10% of every first year class was expected to ever make partner.

If a firm doesn't promote you to partner simply because you're a woman, sure, it would be discriminatory and you could sue. But if they don't promote you because you're only billing 1800 hours a year while the childless guy in the office next to you is billing 2400 hours a year, it isn't really discriminatory.

You can't really restart on partnership track at another firm, particularly not at a firm that is a peer of your old firm. Firms don't want to hire other firms' damaged goods. If you were so great, you would have made partner at firm 1 -- why does firm 2 want you when there are so many other good candidates out there who *did* make partner at a firm or are likely to do so in the future?

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2012 14:48:01 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

How many people make partner out of those who are partner track? I'm assuming not everyone does. What % do they take? Again, I'm just curious. Especially since I thought there was basically an over supply of law school graduates, so doesn't that make it even harder/more competitive?

This depends a ton on what kind of firm you're talking about.

[Deleted]

That sounds incredibly stressful. I guess that is why you make the big bucks.

[ohgillian]

So what about people who just "hang a shingle" so to speak -- I mean, is the "partner" business only applicable to large law firms? Obviously if you are a solo practitioner, then "partner" isn't an issue. But is it an issue at small firms? (Say, 5 or 10 attys)

[noodleoo]

Wow, only 5-10%? The way people talk about it I thought it was much higher than that. I guess we have the cream of the crop here at MM.

This is very interesting. Thanks for answering my questions! Last one: if you have to make like 2400+ billable hours before you make partner, do you have to keep doing that once you are a partner? How do you ever have a good work/family life balance? Or do you just resign yourself to 50-60+ hours work weeks for your career and just retire early?

PS. Susie, yes understanding what partner is definitely makes more sense in your other post. If you are so close to partner right now, I see why you want to wait and see it through. I wish you lots of luck and hope they give you a time frame soon.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2012 14:53:49 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

So what about people who just "hang a shingle" so to speak -- I mean, is the "partner" business only applicable to large law firms? Obviously if you are a solo practitioner, then "partner" isn't an issue. But is it an issue at small firms? (Say, 5 or 10 attys)

Is what an issue?

Susie and I could meet up tomorrow and form a law partnership, and we could both be partners. We could have done that right when we graduated from law school. So no, partner business is not only applicable to large firms, but it is going to be very different across different types of firms.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2012 14:54:51 GMT -5 noodleoo said:

Wow, only 5-10%? The way people talk about it I thought it was much higher than that. I guess we have the cream of the crop here at MM.

This is very interesting. Thanks for answering my questions! Last one: if you have to make like 2400+ billable hours before you make partner, do you have to keep doing that once you are a partner? How do you ever have a good work/family life balance? Or do you just resign yourself to 50-60+ hours work weeks for your career and just retire early?

PS. Susie, yes understanding what partner is definitely makes more sense in your other post. If you are so close to partner right now, I see why you want to wait and see it through. I wish you lots of luck and hope they give you a time frame soon.

Well, 5-10% was at my old biglaw firm. That isn't across the board. And some of that is due to natural attrition (people leaving to go in-house, to get out of law, etc.).

Billing as a partner is a little different -- more hours are spent doing unbillable client development and such, so partners are not expected to bill 2400 hours. But they work very very hard -- in my experience, often as hard or harder than associates. Those hours just may not be billable.

How do you ever have a good work/life balance? By finding a different job. If you don't want to end up working on all of your vacations, and on many weekends and many late nights, partner (at least at a firm like mine) isn't a great career choice. And actually, many of them do not retire early -- they're workaholics and don't want to stop.

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2012 14:53:49 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

So what about people who just "hang a shingle" so to speak -- I mean, is the "partner" business only applicable to large law firms? Obviously if you are a solo practitioner, then "partner" isn't an issue. But is it an issue at small firms? (Say, 5 or 10 attys)

I work at a firm like this, so I will address. My firm has 3 partners, one "of counsel" and the rest are associates.

I am on "partner track"-- which means I am expected to bring in a book of business - ie, have my own clients. I am actively working on this through various networking opportunities. I am a seventh year associate and they pretty much expect me to have substantial business in another 2-3 years. The only thing that matters (in terms of partnership, I mean) to the current partners is how much money I bring in. Its not merit based- I can win all my cases, be a fabulous attorney, but I'll never make partner here until I bring in money.

If I make partner, I will have to buy into the business, but I then will get a portion of a profits. I am not sure of the details, since this part hasn't been discussed. A partner will earn a lot of money only if the firm earns a lot of money.

I have no idea what will happen if I don't make partner. I assume they will keep me on for a while (I am cheap for them, I am vastly underpaid. I stay because of the potential payoff- plus the fact I actually like where I work). But I can't see them keeping a 12th year associate. At that point, I'd either become "of counsel" or I'd need to find a new job. I think that's similar to BigLaw.

[ESF]

Oct 15, 2012 14:53:49 GMT -5 ohgillian said:

So what about people who just "hang a shingle" so to speak -- I mean, is the "partner" business only applicable to large law firms? Obviously if you are a solo practitioner, then "partner" isn't an issue. But is it an issue at small firms? (Say, 5 or 10 attys)

Generally all law firms are partnerships (well unless it's one person, then it's not).

Having only worked for small law firms, I will say that they don't have a true track to partnership because they are tiny and there's typically just maybe 2-5 people making the call about who gets to be partner. I haven't a fucking clue what I would need to do to be partner at my firm, where I'm the only associate. The partners probably don't know either.

Generally speaking though, I'd say in the small law firm world, there are two big differences. First, not making partner at your current firm is not an automatic disqualifier to be a partner elsewhere. Because the firms are so small, most people know that when it comes to a decision like partnership, personality dynamics matter more than performance. Two set in their way partners aren't going to want to co-manage their firm with a weirdo, no matter how talented that person may be. But that weird personality may be a better fit for another duo looking to expand.

Second, at small firms is not uncommon for one to be "of counsel" or "special counsel" or some other title before becoming partner, either at their current firm or transferring elsewhere to be a partner. Typically the of counsel might be people who have brought in a couple clients and are working on building a steady enough revenue stream for them to justify getting a larger share, or are working to build up enough money to buy into the deal. They also could be people who are getting a partnership-like cut of their own cases, but are not assuming the risks and profits of the firm as a whole. And people in that position might be attractive to other tiny firms that are looking to expand.

[fbf2006]

I just wanted to mention that making partner is also similar in accounting and consulting firms. Basically, any business that is formed as a partnership (LLP, LP).