The Unteachables

[IIOY]

May 24, 2012 18:28:10 GMT -5 @Seesaw said:

May 24, 2012 18:20:30 GMT -5 emilyj said:

All that was going through my head was Wayne's World. "A sphincter says what???"

LOL. What a fabulous class you must teach!

So kids should take constructive criticism, but teachers don't have to. Wonder where the kids are learning their habits?

Wut the wut now?

[myst]

May 24, 2012 19:29:22 GMT -5 @habbsies said:

I sure am. She basically said, "Hey, pete, stand up and tell us how hispanic children celebrate Christmas differently."

Pete said, uhm, wut?

Damn, that is wrong on more than one level.

[Seesaw]

May 24, 2012 18:20:30 GMT -5 emilyj said:

I had a parent call me my first semester teaching and tell me I needed to make special accommodations and arrangements in my syllabus for her child who was doing an internship in Atlanta that semester and commuting in only for my class.

All that was going through my head was Wayne's World. "A sphincter says what???"

Ok, I take back that the parent tried to criticize you. I should have said "request for change" instead of criticism. I understand she wanted you to work with/around this kid's commute and intern schedule. I understand you blanked your mind to the request and filled it with sphincter instead of even considering changing a test date here or there or letting the kid come in on a different day to make something up because of his/her intern schedule. So my post should have said something like, kids should change, but not teachers. How's that? More clear of my meaning now? I meant that you're not much better than these unteachable children in that you don't even want to consider a change in yourself. Anyone asking you for a change must be wrong and sphinctery.

Sphincter... eh heheh. It's a funny word.

[Deleted]

But these aren't children. They are college students. Parents shouldn't be involving themselves in the classrooms of their adult children.

[Melissa W.]

Seesaw, you seriously think that a PARENT should be calling to get an ADULT's teacher to change a schedule? At what point does a parent cut the cord?

[emilyj]

May 24, 2012 20:31:50 GMT -5 @Seesaw said:

Ok, I take back that the parent tried to criticize you. I should have said "request for change" instead of criticism. I understand she wanted you to work with/around this kid's commute and intern schedule. I understand you blanked your mind to the request and filled it with sphincter instead of even considering changing a test date here or there or letting the kid come in on a different day to make something up because of his/her intern schedule. So my post should have said something like, kids should change, but not teachers. How's that? More clear of my meaning now? I meant that you're not much better than these unteachable children in that you don't even want to consider a change in yourself. Anyone asking you for a change must be wrong and sphinctery.

Sphincter... eh heheh. It's a funny word.

So basically what you did here is you criticized me for a situation that was completely the opposite of what you meant to criticize me for. And instead, you took it upon yourself to make an assumption of a completely DIFFERENT situation and what I would do in that scenario.

Now since it was the parent that called me, and not the student, how exactly can you criticize me for how I handled a situation with a student that never showed up to my door? How can you possibly say that I will not consider a change within myself if I haven't said anything in this scenario that has anything to do with a STUDENT coming to me and asking me for help?

Because you're basically telling me that I'm not willing to change based on....what exactly?

ETA: Would you like to instead ask me what I would do if it was, in fact, the student that had asked me that instead of the parent?

[Seesaw]

Um, I said "criticize" instead of "request a change". I admitted to that mistake in terms. I'm not sure what else you think I did. I never was confused about it being the parent who came to you instead of the student. I don't see your issue with who talked to you about it. There was a request for a change in your syllabus.
Why's it matter who asked you? You never even said how you responded verbally. I assume/hope you didn't say "Sphincter says what" out loud to the parent....did you? I think requests from either party are equally deserving of consideration and a respectful response, even if that response was no.

My point was you immediately closed your mind to any thought of considering changing your schedule, much like unteachable kids close their minds to considering a change in their own behavior or actions. But yes, please tell me if you would have considered the request if the student had asked for the changes.

This article was not about the teacher-student relationship.... it was about malformed people (Americans specifically) with no ability to fathom a change within themselves to affect consequences without. These people begin as children (of parents), then students of teachers, then adults in the wordforce, etc. Are you thinking my point was incongruous or off topic because you think the students are the only ones "unteachable"? If so, nevermind. for the point that got lost in the ethers.

[Seesaw]

*workforce not wordforce

[ttt]

May 24, 2012 20:31:50 GMT -5 @Seesaw said:

May 24, 2012 18:20:30 GMT -5 emilyj said:

I had a parent call me my first semester teaching and tell me I needed to make special accommodations and arrangements in my syllabus for her child who was doing an internship in Atlanta that semester and commuting in only for my class.

All that was going through my head was Wayne's World. "A sphincter says what???"

Ok, I take back that the parent tried to criticize you. I should have said "request for change" instead of criticism. I understand she wanted you to work with/around this kid's commute and intern schedule. I understand you blanked your mind to the request and filled it with sphincter instead of even considering changing a test date here or there or letting the kid come in on a different day to make something up because of his/her intern schedule. So my post should have said something like, kids should change, but not teachers. How's that? More clear of my meaning now? I meant that you're not much better than these unteachable children in that you don't even want to consider a change in yourself. Anyone asking you for a change must be wrong and sphinctery.

Sphincter... eh heheh. It's a funny word.

I'm sure that will go over really well in the professional world. Hey, just tell your client that you're going to need them to change their deadlines because you have other projects going on.

[taratru]

You guys would *die* if I told you some of the parent phone calls and emails I've had to deal with in terms of wanting a grade change. Die, I tell you. I could never get away with the 50% off for each run-on or fragment. Never. Ever. Ever.

Our parents are a bit...helicoptery.

[emilyj]

May 24, 2012 21:59:38 GMT -5 @Seesaw said:

My point was you immediately closed your mind to any thought of considering changing your schedule, much like unteachable kids close their minds to considering a change in their own behavior or actions.

Well...but you are incorrect in your assumption. You read that in my head I said "A sphincter says what?" and you drew a bunch of conclusions from there. You yourself just said I never said how I responded...so how can you say I immediately closed my mind? Perhaps my response was a shocked response at what I considered the audacity of a parent of a 22 year old to call me and inform me of what I should do. Not call and ask to speak to me about a matter, not call and ask if I could help out - call me and inform me of what I needed to do. In my world, that's rude. I would never call anyone and tell them how to do their job.

Now, if the student came to me and said "Dr. Emily, here's the deal..." would I have rearranged the entire syllabus for the class? No. I view the syllabus as a contract. The dates and assignments and policies are laid out from day one. There are no surprises. They know when everything is due, and I expect them to plan accordingly. They are adult enough at this point to realize there are choices and consequences, and what they choose to do has consequences that they will have to face. I expect that if they are in school, school is their first priority. Not their sorority, not their boyfriend, not their club...not their internship either. Academics. If that's too closed-minded for you, then I'm not sure what to say. I'm jealous of whatever job you must have where deadlines and due dates and responsibilities must not apply. At my yearly review, I don't get to tell my boss that I haven't met my set expectations and responsibilities because I just had too much other stuff going on.

However, I'm not completely inflexible, or a complete bitch, and I would have respected her initiative for coming to me ahead of time and addressing the issue. I would have sat down with her, looked over her internship hours, talked about her commute, the issues she thought might arise that would impact her getting to class, and put a plan in place with her for how we would handle any issues that would arise. I would outline my expectations for her of what I considered non-negotiable classes that she could not miss, and what I would be willing to give her leeway on. I would tell her would would constitute an acceptable excuse for missing class - ie, I would not fail her on a test if she got stuck on the interstate because a tanker truck blew up.

I am willing to work with students on an individual basis if they have legitimate conflicts or problems or issues. Legitimate conflicts or issues do not include blowing off class for 6 weeks straight and then showing up with some bullshit excuse and expecting the moon handed to them.

May 24, 2012 21:59:38 GMT -5 @Seesaw said:

Are you thinking my point was incongruous or off topic because you think the students are the only ones "unteachable"? If so, nevermind. for the point that got lost in the ethers.

I'm honestly not sure what your point was. I posted about a parent calling me, which I think is highly inappropriate and rude. Other people have directly asked you if you think that's appropriate, which you have ignored.

Your response seemed to mock my class and gave me the thumbs down. Then you jumped on me for not being willing to make a change, which you did without any basis to make that conclusion on.

So...I'm sorry. But I'm still not 100% sure what point you are trying to make or what you are trying to ask me.

[Giggity19]

Emily J - we should really "talk." I'm going to try to figure out how to PM you.

I'll ditto everything you said in your first post. I'm known as hard but fair.

I had a senior this spring who was trying to graduate. He failed my class. To make a very long story very short (and not give away too many details), I suggested that he could redo the major research paper - starting from scratch - over the summer to earn his credits. He keeps responding, asking me if there's no way to change his grade. I suggest the research paper. He ignores my suggestion. Lather, rinse, repeat. I'm giving him the weekend and then revoking the offer. If you're too lazy to do ONE paper rather than take another course and delay your graduation by a semester, I can't help you.

[emilyj]

May 24, 2012 23:33:20 GMT -5 @Giggity19 said:

Emily J - we should really "talk." I'm going to try to figure out how to PM you.

I'd love to talk!

Look for the little envelope icon under my name - that should be how you send me a PM.

[Norrin]

I'm really happy to see this kind of article. I think people need both positive and negative feedback in order to mold themselves into a rational, constructive, and grounded person. I've seen the same attitude in various fields of study. I've seen it in training and education outside the normal public education and college arenas. For instance, take martial arts. The term "martial art" should denote something vigorous, combative, harsh, disciplined, etc. I've seen parents lose their mind when an instructor refuses to promote a student because the student has not put in the effort to learn the material. Its either the class is too rough, too ridiculous, too "old school", or whatever. They miss the point that the hard work put into the martial art will give the students pride and dignity when the are promoted in rank.

I mention martial arts simply because its one example of a similar situation described in the article. We award mediocrity and failure in this country and others and yet wonder why people come into the work force with no work ethic. People get offended when their boss tells them they need to be on time. People get peeved when they are given a project that does not exactly fit into their job description. Whatever happened to initiative and dedication? Now, I'm not saying every person that comes through today's educational systems is like this but in my opinion its becoming a larger majority.

In reference to the discussion around teachers not changing but requesting students to change: I believe in standing firm on a decision, grade, etc especially in context of what I said above. On the other hand I tend to believe our teachers should lead by example. I believe and example was set in telling the parent/student no, but yet, to me, a bad example was set by the "sphincter" comment. Sure, maybe the student will not read the entry, but I'm not sure how I feel about teachers saying base comments (while perhaps funny) about students. I enjoyed the Wayne's World movie, but in the professional world I'm not sure those kind of comments fly. I understand these posts are not the professional world, but should we not act as a professional about our jobs at all times? Now, I've made similar comments, jokes, etc I'm sure about my job so maybe I could say who am I to judge?

[marynjoe]

Team EmilyJ! I'm so tired of these coddled kids going to college and thinking mommy or daddy can still make it okay. We've raised a generation of entitled kids who are going to have a heck of a time in the real world.

Now get off my lawn!!

[Deleted]

May 24, 2012 12:54:09 GMT -5 heyjude said:

So many articles bemoaning the entitled nature of today's youth...and never once do I see an awareness or acknowledgment that these kids were all raised by their baby boomer parents to be this way. I'd like to see an article written by a boomer that says "my child is kinda an entitled twat...it's actually all my indulgent parenting fault."

Is everyone on this board ready to acknowledge that THEY are entitled twats because they were raised by baby boomer parents?

Or is that only other baby boomer parents, other boomer's children?

I think it's pretty ridiculous to generalize like that about an entire (and quite huge) generation, but the people on this board who slam boomer parents for spoiling their kids somehow fail to realize that they are either boomer parents themselves - or spoiled kids.

[SmartyCat]

May 25, 2012 0:16:25 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

May 24, 2012 12:54:09 GMT -5 heyjude said:

So many articles bemoaning the entitled nature of today's youth...and never once do I see an awareness or acknowledgment that these kids were all raised by their baby boomer parents to be this way. I'd like to see an article written by a boomer that says "my child is kinda an entitled twat...it's actually all my indulgent parenting fault."

Is everyone on this board ready to acknowledge that THEY are entitled twats because they were raised by baby boomer parents?

Or is that only other baby boomer parents, other boomer's children?

I think it's pretty ridiculous to generalize like that about an entire (and quite huge) generation, but the people on this board who slam boomer parents for spoiling their kids somehow fail to realize that they are either boomer parents themselves - or spoiled kids.

Ok, raising hand. Depending on which demographer you listen to, I was either at the very trailing end of the baby boom or the gap between the boomers and Gen X. I was raised by very strict parents who didn't believe in giving too many compliments or coddling their children. If I got a compliment from a teacher or another adult, my parents were quick to chime in with a comment that counteracted it so the compliment wouldn't "go to my head".

Did I want to raise my own kid differently? HELL yes. And yes, sometimes I went too far the other direction. There are some lessons DS learned from an impersonal world that he should have learned at home from me when he was very small. That he's turned out productive and happy? I'll take credit for some of it, but still I sometimes look back in wonder that he's not living in our basement or underemployed.

All that said - I'll cop to being a marshmallow sometimes, but the thought of calling a teacher (or even worse, an employer) of a kid old enough to drive is just bizarre. What moron sends their beloved child out into the world without the skills to negotiate even their own class schedule?

[emilyj]

May 24, 2012 23:53:52 GMT -5 @Norrin said:

but yet, to me, a bad example was set by the "sphincter" comment. Sure, maybe the student will not read the entry, but I'm not sure how I feel about teachers saying base comments (while perhaps funny) about students. I enjoyed the Wayne's World movie, but in the professional world I'm not sure those kind of comments fly.

Which is why, if you'll go back and re-read my original post, it said "All that went through my head was..." That is not what I actually said out loud to the parent - the parent, btw, not the student. I can't set a bad example if the incident didn't actually happen.

[Seesaw]

I had to read your reply a few times before I found all of my mistakes. I want each of us to understand the other point.

I apologize for bashing your class. That was random meanness that was me trying to fit in to this party costume. It doesn't fit well enough to make me not want to acknowledge and take responsibility for my actions. I just can't continue with the mean part when you've defended your stance so reasonably. I can't repay your honest effort to communicate with less than the same. Bashing your class was wrong and I knew it when I did it. That was worse. I am sorry for treating you that way when you didn't deserve it.

I think the main hiccup here was that I thought your reaction (the sphincter thing) was to the request itself. This led me to believe you had closed your mind to change itself, much like the unteachables. But your last response clued me in that something's off or you don't make sense. Please confirm. I now understand that you judge the parent had no right to make a request on behalf of the student. Your sphincter reaction was to that fact, not the actual request for the change. Is that correct?

I feel that the request for change is for the benefit of the same person regardless of who brings it to you. This is why I feel your mind is closed to the request itself. I am understanding that you feel this is justified by your rejection to a parent speaking for an adult.

If asked by the student, I'm glad you would show some flexibility for traffic, and may I assume, other huge emergencies like hospitalization and death of an immediate. Would you accept requests for flexibility for these exact same reasons if they came from the parent instead of the student? I heard your outrage on parents speaking for their kids into college, especially from the teacher's perspective. I understand and agree with this feeling when the student and/or the parent is an "unteachable". I disagree that this is always the case and maintain that your mind was closed due to your prejudgement that you were dealing with one. I was not there and don't have all of the details. From the scenario you described, neither the student nor the parent did anything I feel shows either one was "unteachable". The real moment to find out if they were is how they would react to a negatory from you.

I disagree that a parent/guardian never has any right to petition on behalf of their child beyond the age of legal adulthood. I say the mom's still in control if she's still paying for the student's room, board, car, school and internship. If she's not paying, she is likely only there by invitation of the student (maybe because student is afraid to speak to you directly, has laryngitis or it's not part of their family culture for the child to manage their own education) or she came of her own accord (maybe because she is genuinely concerned about the student's success both in your class and in the internship). If the mom is there without the student's permission, maybe it was because the student didn't want to come ask for any special favors. Moms can go rogue against the wishes of their children sometimes, especially when their futures are involved. Would you react with sphincter if the student's internship boss came to plead with you to let the student keep her internship and still make your class times?

I maintain that your crude "sphincter says what" reaction (which was as juvenile a response as burping in the mom's face, imho) showed a mind closed in disdain and rejection against the idea that change could possibly be needed on your part when the request is delivered by someone you judge to be a helicoptor parent. I feel you have every right to be that way. I just feel that it shows that you are not open minded to other possibilities besides the ones you despise.

I never think it's ok for anyone to ask for a grade change unless a mistake was made, such as a calculation error or mistake in identity. Once accuracy is established, no more argument. I understood Emily's story wasn't about a grade change but some leniency for attendance in reference to a syllabus/internship schedule conflict. Since they weren't talking about what I'm talking about, I didn't see that they were talking to me or that I needed to respond to them.

I feel the teacher has authority over the material taught in class, the grades given, the syllabus and the behavior of students during class period. I do not feel teachers have authority over managing any other parts of a students life, relationships with their parents, or development into adulthood. A teacher's personal judgements about these things should not influence her open-mindedness to a request for change. The teacher should be able to disallow something (anything in her own class as long as it is equitable and consistent) but according to her own policy or that of the school, not for personal reasons. Even if a parent asks rudely, with some funky entitlement attitude, an ugly face or some other offensive style to them (poor grammar), I feel a teacher could show some emotional maturity, and consider the request for the sake of the student in question. That would be an open mind to me, no prejudice against hearing the needs of a student because of the character of their parent. Teachers don't have to care about their student's success in their own classes, but I think it's preferable if they did.

Alrighty, I'm right burned out on this topic. :drink: cheers

[Seesaw]

Woah shit that's long. Sorry. It's a dead issue now anyway I think.

[heyjude]

May 25, 2012 0:16:25 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

May 24, 2012 12:54:09 GMT -5 heyjude said:

So many articles bemoaning the entitled nature of today's youth...and never once do I see an awareness or acknowledgment that these kids were all raised by their baby boomer parents to be this way. I'd like to see an article written by a boomer that says "my child is kinda an entitled twat...it's actually all my indulgent parenting fault."

Is everyone on this board ready to acknowledge that THEY are entitled twats because they were raised by baby boomer parents?

Or is that only other baby boomer parents, other boomer's children?

I think it's pretty ridiculous to generalize like that about an entire (and quite huge) generation, but the people on this board who slam boomer parents for spoiling their kids somehow fail to realize that they are either boomer parents themselves - or spoiled kids.

What are you talking about?!

[Norrin]

Okay, perhaps I have some sense of entitlement myself. Sure, self-reflection is always needed. On the flip side, not ever baby-boomer's child has this entitlement attitude. I know many I would consider great, hard-working people. Of course I know others that are not. My point was it appears from my experience in the work force and other situations that the entitlement attitude is getting worse.

[myst]

May 25, 2012 0:16:25 GMT -5 sandsonik said:

May 24, 2012 12:54:09 GMT -5 heyjude said:

So many articles bemoaning the entitled nature of today's youth...and never once do I see an awareness or acknowledgment that these kids were all raised by their baby boomer parents to be this way. I'd like to see an article written by a boomer that says "my child is kinda an entitled twat...it's actually all my indulgent parenting fault."

Is everyone on this board ready to acknowledge that THEY are entitled twats because they were raised by baby boomer parents?

Or is that only other baby boomer parents, other boomer's children?

I think it's pretty ridiculous to generalize like that about an entire (and quite huge) generation, but the people on this board who slam boomer parents for spoiling their kids somehow fail to realize that they are either boomer parents themselves - or spoiled kids.

Um, swing and a miss. My parents are silent generation, and I'm gen X, so not *everyone* is either a boomer parent or a boomer kid.

Either way, of course every person is an individual, but that doesn't mean there aren't generational trends in parenting.

[myst]

May 25, 2012 8:33:49 GMT -5 @mrdobalina said:

can I get a rundown on who is in what generation? I'm too old to be x, too young to be a boomer. Help!

I didn't think that was possible, I thought Gen X is the entire generation between the boomers and their children. (Born between something like mid-60's to 1980, I think).

[munkii]

Generally speaking, it's:

2000/2001-Present - Generation Z
1980-2000 - Millennials or Generation Y
1965-1979 - Generation X
1946-1964 - Baby Boom
1925-1945 - Silent Generation
1900-1924 - G.I. Generation

Although, different sources use different years; so, the above +/-5 years is about right.

[wawa]

So my mom is on the line between a boomer and a genxer, and I'm between a xer and millennial. Pretty sure I'm a millennial in terms of "if you remember x, you're a millennial"

And my mom, being the oldest of her siblings, and having generally much younger friends is culturally a genxer, not a boomer.

My IL's on the other hand, are Boomers. And my 26 year old BIL still lives in their basement...so yep, that sounds about right.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2012 22:37:55 GMT -5 taratru said:

You guys would *die* if I told you some of the parent phone calls and emails I've had to deal with in terms of wanting a grade change. Die, I tell you. I could never get away with the 50% off for each run-on or fragment. Never. Ever. Ever.

Our parents are a bit...helicoptery.

Ha! I've never even been a teacher and I experienced this all the time.....as a part-time employee of a college admissions office, FFS.

About a week after grades were released, every semester, my office would get calls - some from students, some from parents - demanding a grade change. Usually the "I/he/she had too much other stuff going on" accompanied the tirade.

I would just respond with "Sorry, only your professor can change your grade" which was often met by a demand that we contact the professor and arrange this. Hell, even my boss (director of admissions) or her boss (dean of admissions) didn't even have that power, not that that stopped some people from going over my head to them anyway.

That, of course, is in addition to various issues related to admission/enrollment/registration - students don't have time to do the application paperwork, it wasn't their fault they missed the application/registration deadline, my department needs to procure special permission to get them in a class that was full to capapcity (again, only the professor has the power to do this), etc.

At the time being a student myself raised by parents who were anything but helicoptery (Xer raised by Silent Generation parents) I never had any sympathy.

[bqbride]

SeeSaw, thank you for so richly illustrating the point while remaining so blissfully unaware of it.

[smock]

College professor weighing in: if anyone besides the student (i.e. parents, siblings, friends, babysitters, grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors, etc.) tries to discuss the student's standing in class, availability for exams, schedule, etc., I will inform them that the student him/herself needs to contact me.

If 22 year olds cannot communicate with a professor, and need a parent to step in, maybe they aren't ready for college.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2012 13:14:25 GMT -5 emilyj said:

The biggest criticism I get on my teaching evaluations is that I am too harsh of a grader.

I worry about getting tenure as a hard grader. I have heard that the faculty in my new department tend to be pretty easy. On ratemyprofessors.com (admittedly biased data), some of the evaluations say "terrible teacher. Don't take this class and mess up your GPA."