Looking at the ages, these aren't boomer parents. These are the latchkey kids of the boomer parents all grown up and being petulant children about their own upbringing. Mommy didn't kiss my ass enough when I was a child so now I'm going to mollycoddle my kid until I die.
College professor weighing in: if anyone besides the student (i.e. parents, siblings, friends, babysitters, grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors, etc.) tries to discuss the student's standing in class, availability for exams, schedule, etc., I will inform them that the student him/herself needs to contact me.
If 22 year olds cannot communicate with a professor, and need a parent to step in, maybe they aren't ready for college.
That reminds me of one call I got from a a kid calling for his "brother" who missed the application deadline but expected admission anyway.
Me: I'm sorry, but if we make an exception for you, then we have to make one for everyone else.
Caller: It's not for me. It's for my brother.
Me: Ummm....OK, if we make an exception for your brother, then we have to make one for everyone else.
I disagree that a parent/guardian never has any right to petition on behalf of their child beyond the age of legal adulthood. I say the mom's still in control if she's still paying for the student's room, board, car, school and internship. If she's not paying, she is likely only there by invitation of the student (maybe because student is afraid to speak to you directly, has laryngitis or it's not part of their family culture for the child to manage their own education) or she came of her own accord (maybe because she is genuinely concerned about the student's success both in your class and in the internship). If the mom is there without the student's permission, maybe it was because the student didn't want to come ask for any special favors. Moms can go rogue against the wishes of their children sometimes, especially when their futures are involved.
Apparently parents calling on behalf of their grown children is a hot button topic for me. When DS was 17 and had his first job, I was SO tempted to call his boss about a scheduling issue I thought was ridiculous. But DS (who would have been mortified if I called his boss) was the employee, and he was the one who needed to negotiate his schedule with his boss. The fact that he was my dependent living under my roof gave me no appropriate role in his employment situation or later with his professors.
If a student is disabled and needs an advocate, that's another story. But a 22 year old who can't resolve a schedule conflict on her own isn't being done any favors by mommy calling the professor.
The biggest criticism I get on my teaching evaluations is that I am too harsh of a grader.
I worry about getting tenure as a hard grader. I have heard that the faculty in my new department tend to be pretty easy. On ratemyprofessors.com (admittedly biased data), some of the evaluations say "terrible teacher. Don't take this class and mess up your GPA."
Teaching evaluations will really have a very small effect on tenure at most schools--at mine, at least, the standard is that you must be "proficient" at teaching, which is pretty easy to achieve. I'm a tough grader (i.e. the average grade in my intro class is in the C-range), and my evals are still right around my department average. So I wouldn't worry too much about grading affecting tenure!
I had to read your reply a few times before I found all of my mistakes. I want each of us to understand the other point.
I disagree that a parent/guardian never has any right to petition on behalf of their child beyond the age of legal adulthood. I say the mom's still in control if she's still paying for the student's room, board, car, school and internship. If she's not paying, she is likely only there by invitation of the student (maybe because student is afraid to speak to you directly, has laryngitis or it's not part of their family culture for the child to manage their own education) or she came of her own accord (maybe because she is genuinely concerned about the student's success both in your class and in the internship). If the mom is there without the student's permission, maybe it was because the student didn't want to come ask for any special favors. Moms can go rogue against the wishes of their children sometimes, especially when their futures are involved. Would you react with sphincter if the student's internship boss came to plead with you to let the student keep her internship and still make your class times?
FERPA however does not give parents this right even if they are paying. I'm pretty limited on what I can say or tell a parent without signed consent from the student.
I get the "I'm paying the bills" line about once a week. Makes no difference ( unless the child has been in trouble with alcohol or drugs).
Rouge parents are even worse because usually they are speaking about things they have no idea about and usually make the situation worse.
I disagree that a parent/guardian never has any right to petition on behalf of their child beyond the age of legal adulthood. I say the mom's still in control if she's still paying for the student's room, board, car, school and internship.
I disagree that a parent/guardian never has any right to petition on behalf of their child beyond the age of legal adulthood. I say the mom's still in control if she's still paying for the student's room, board, car, school and internship.
You say that, federal law says otherwise. Sorry.
And, of course, it wouldn't occur to a bebe that a college student isn't relying on mommy and daddy to foot the bill for their whole existence.
I'm leaving, but I'll check back later for the typical bebe response to that statement...
Mom may still be in control of what the student does because she's footing the bill, but that certainly doesn't mean she's in control of what the professor does.
Mom may still be in control of what the student does because she's footing the bill, but that certainly doesn't mean she's in control of what the professor does.
Ding, ding, ding!
Parent role should either be to tell the student to get their shit in order, or if there really is a problem to suggest the student talk to the professor.
I'm always amazed when students welcome their parents' direct intrusion. I'm glad my mother is one of the strongest believers in my ability to handle myself, I can't imagine how shitty I'd feel if she figured I still needed her to speak for me...or worse yet, she was right...
Also, whatever happened to kids being embarrassed by their parents?? I would have been MORTIFIED if my mom had directly contacted any of my professors for any reason at all. It was embarrassing enough when she wanted to set up my dorm room for me.
What happened to teens separating from their parents, pining for independence, wanting to prove that they can do everything by themselves and that they don't need Mom anymore? I couldn't WAIT to get to college and be the adult I so thought I was at 18 (ha!).
Seesaw, for the sake of brevity I'm not going to quote your response. Thank you for your apology. And yes. My reaction was to the parent calling me. I still can't figure out how you can say my mind was closed on the matter. I still have yet to actually say what my actual response was to the situation.
I feel like I have already answered the other question you are asking me. No, I will not change my entire syllabus based on the request of one person. But you keep bringing up "request for change" and this instance of parent/student asking me to change, and even though it may be semantics, it's hard to talk about the point with the word 'change'. I think accommodation may be more appropriate.
So here's my simplest answer: My syllabus and my policies are my syllabus and policies. Do I have exceptions? Of course. Do I make accommodations when appropriate? Of course. But I do it on a case-by-case basis, and I can't give a blanket answer for how/when I do it.
As for your feeling that a parent has a right to petition on behalf of their child, you can disagree, and a parent does have that right. As others have pointed out, federal law prohibits me from speaking to a parent about their child, despite them paying the bill. Would I never speak to a parent? Of course not. I had to this past semester when a student ended up in the hospital. However, due to federal law, I was so limited in what I could say to the mother.
I feel that a child in college should be advocating for themselves and not having their parent do it for them. Period. End of story.
You ultimately say "I just feel that it shows that you are not open minded to other possibilities besides the ones you despise." I think you are again making this statement based on a lack of information, since you've again tied this to the parent calling me and again, you still don't know my actual response to the scenario.
So I'm not sure what else I can answer for you. I have standards. I have expectations. But I'm also realistic and I'm willing to work with the students if they have legitimate problems or issues. I don't judge them for anything they do outside of my classroom, and they all know it. Many of them have come to me with personal problems for that exact reason. So...?
The biggest criticism I get on my teaching evaluations is that I am too harsh of a grader.
I worry about getting tenure as a hard grader. I have heard that the faculty in my new department tend to be pretty easy. On ratemyprofessors.com (admittedly biased data), some of the evaluations say "terrible teacher. Don't take this class and mess up your GPA."
At my school, the general consensus is that excellent teaching will not get you tenure, but terrible teaching can keep you from it. They pretty much just want you to be proficient at it. I would NOT shy away from being a hard grader - just be consistent and fair.
it worked. People learned to actually proof their work.
I think that's what a lot of it boils down to - simple laziness and lack of proofreading. I mean, if you can't look over your work and tell that "Implanon" is not the same as "Implementation" or that you have misspelled "Washington, DC" - ESPECIALLY when the damn red line is there telling you it's wrong, then you deserve to fail.
Which is why I think I'm going to go to the "I'm going to stop at your 2nd error, and just give you a 0" rule next semester. That will be so awesome. ;D
My journalism classes were like this. They were ridiculously hard, but to this day I'm a 1000x's more careful about my work.
I still can't get over parents calling professors and administrators on behalf of their college-aged children. I had very involved parents. Some people even called my mother over-protective. My education was very important to them. But calling my college had nothing to do with being involved in my education. That's just helicopter parenting and overstepping your bounds. If a 20 year old can't do something like that on his own, well, you've failed as a parent. Most colleges don't even send home grades unless the student requests that.
Anyway, this is my favorite criticism of her and perfectly illustrates our point:
"No word banks for her fill in the blank tests."
The nerve. No WORD BANKS!!! I weep for our future.
A word bank in college? I don't even remember having word banks in high school. But I'm old so maybe it's just my memory being faulty.
I had to Google "word bank." OMG, and this student wanted one on a college exam?
Ditto TTT. I would have been mortified if either of my parents called my professors. I bet some students may not even know their parents are calling the professors; they may have vented about their grade and then Mommy or Daddy took it upon themselves to to call.
I disagree that a parent/guardian never has any right to petition on behalf of their child beyond the age of legal adulthood. I say the mom's still in control if she's still paying for the student's room, board, car, school and internship.
You say that, federal law says otherwise. Sorry.
Federal law says no one may bring Emily a problem that needs consideration besides the person it will serve? Federal law prohibits free individuals from making a request of a teacher whether for the benefit or detriment of a student or not? I really doubt it... she's not in America anyway so.... what federal law are you talking about?
The argument here is over moral judgements, not lawful responsiblity. I don't think Emily is doing any illegal, just shitty and close minded. I don't believe she's claiming the mom acted illegally either, just in a manner she deemed "inappropriate and rude".
Dumbass.
Law (in America) confers certain privileges and rights on an individual at age 18. It does not require that parents give up management control of their kid's lives at any certain age. Definition of the roles and boundaries of parents, adults and teachers is socially/culturally defined. Your opinions are just your opinions and not enforced by federal law. Wake up psychos. Teachers may be in charge in the class room, but they're not gods outside of it. Anyone has the right to speak to a teacher because they are just a person too.
Emily's expressed views lead me to believe she would not understand or accept the family structure of say, a traditional Indian family (from India). The parents RULE the lives of their female children at all ages until that female's care is passed on to a husband (often chosen by the parents). You don't have to like it, but I think it's a shitty teacher that would penalize a student and make decisions that will impact that student's success in her class based on her own cultural beliefs about family structure and adulthood responsibility.
My beliefs are not supported by federal law except in that I am free to have them, just as Emily is free to have hers. I could not legally allow my prejudices to affect the success of someone trying to hire on at my company. I am not sure if Emily is legally allowed to let her personal prejudices influence the success of her students.
If they legally changed the age of adulthood to 14 years old, would you expect all 15 year olds to be behaving a certain way because the government said they could vote and die for the country now? Personally, I think a person should be an "adult" or effectively responsible for their own actions as soon as they can breed. Good thing my opinions aren't law huh?
I still can't get over parents calling professors and administrators on behalf of their college-aged children. I had very involved parents. Some people even called my mother over-protective. My education was very important to them. But calling my college had nothing to do with being involved in my education. That's just helicopter parenting and overstepping your bounds. If a 20 year old can't do something like that on his own, well, you've failed as a parent. Most colleges don't even send home grades unless the student requests that.
No shit, I dated a guy in college whose mom showed up on campus and demanded to speak to his advisor because he handed her the FERPA line on the phone. She was like, "You will talk to me." and he was like, "I'm sorry you drove all this way. There's not much I'm allowed to discuss with you."
My best friend got waitlisted at a school when we were seniors and her mom called the admissions office to see how and if she could get off the list. She was 17 and she had a slight physical disability (hearing), but even so, my mom was pretty shocked that a parent of an almost-adult would do that.
And I'm technically a "millennial." But I think it's only gotten worse in the decade since I was in undergrad.
Federal law says no one may bring Emily a problem that needs consideration besides the person it will serve? Federal law prohibits free individuals from making a request of a teacher whether for the benefit or detriment of a student or not? I really doubt it... she's not in America anyway so.... what federal law are you talking about?
The argument here is over moral judgements, not lawful responsiblity. I don't think Emily is doing any illegal, just shitty and close minded. I don't believe she's claiming the mom acted illegally either, just in a manner she deemed "inappropriate and rude".
Last time I checked, I was born, raised and still living in America. I'm not sure what makes you think I was foreign.
You have made up your mind on this situation based on assumptions you have made. So let me try one final time to clear up why I think the mom's behavior was rude and inappropriate.
Mom: "Hello, this Mrs. X, I'm X's mother. I'm calling to tell you that she has an internship with X firm in Atlanta this semester, and she will be commuting in for only your class. I'm going to need you to make some considerations for her with respect to deadlines and other class responsibilities and allow her to miss some classes and assignments because this internship is important and hopefully will lead to a job for her."
Um. I don't know about you, but I would NEVER call someone and tell them "I need you to do this". I just had to call my doctor's office and request medical records, and I sure as hell didn't call them and say "I need you to send me my medical records from X date to X date, and I need you to do it asap." How she phrased it was, in my opinion, rude and inappropriate, which is what made me have my reaction.
Had she called and framed it differently - perhaps something along the lines of "Hi, this is so and so, my daughter is in your class and I wanted to call and discuss some concerns I had with her commuting and possibly missing tests and deadlines....", then I wouldn't have even come close to the sphincter thought.
Do you not see the difference there?
So you can call me shitty and close-minded, still having NO CLUE what my response was. You seem set on assigning that label to me no matter what, so whatever. You are not grasping the point I'm trying to make so I give up.
And federal law is the Federal Rights and Privacy Act - it dictates educators may not discuss a child's educational performance or progress with a parent unless the student gives explicit consent. So a parent can call and demand information all they want, but I cannot tell them if their child is attending class, what their grades are, how they are performing, if I can make accommodations...nothing.
Post by kelseybelsey on May 25, 2012 14:15:08 GMT -5
College is supposed to prepare a student for the next step, which is typically a job or grad school. As an employer, I don't care if it is Indian culture that the parents are responsible. I will not be talking to them about their daughter, my employee. Why would we expect college to be different?
I worry about getting tenure as a hard grader. I have heard that the faculty in my new department tend to be pretty easy. On ratemyprofessors.com (admittedly biased data), some of the evaluations say "terrible teacher. Don't take this class and mess up your GPA."
At my school, the general consensus is that excellent teaching will not get you tenure, but terrible teaching can keep you from it. They pretty much just want you to be proficient at it. I would NOT shy away from being a hard grader - just be consistent and fair.
Research is a small part of my job (small liberal arts college), so I think they are mostly judging my teaching for tenure. Right? I can't get a straight answer from my department because most of them have been there since before they had to do any research at all.
Law (in America) confers certain privileges and rights on an individual at age 18. It does not require that parents give up management control of their kid's lives at any certain age.
No, the law does not dictate that parents step back and let their grown children learn how to act like adults. Decent parenting does.
Federal law says no one may bring Emily a problem that needs consideration besides the person it will serve? Federal law prohibits free individuals from making a request of a teacher whether for the benefit or detriment of a student or not? I really doubt it... she's not in America anyway so.... what federal law are you talking about? The argument here is over moral judgements, not lawful responsiblity. I don't think Emily is doing any illegal, just shitty and close minded. I don't believe she's claiming the mom acted illegally either, just in a manner she deemed "inappropriate and rude".
Dumbass.
I was talking about FERPA. I assumed that was obvious since FERPA has already been referenced several times in this thread.
You stated that the parent has the right to control if they're paying (I noticed you omiited that from your quoting) Because of FERPA, that's not entirely true. Who's the dumbass again?
EmilyJ has explained how FERPA works in her last post.
You know, the real result of all this ridiculousness is that everyone has to go to grad school in the US, for things that are undergraduate in other countries. You just so long learning nothing because standards are so low for fear of excluding someone from tertiary education.
So you can call me shitty and close-minded, still having NO CLUE what my response was. You seem set on assigning that label to me no matter what, so whatever. You are not grasping the point I'm trying to make so I give up.
And federal law is the Federal Rights and Privacy Act - it dictates educators may not discuss a child's educational performance or progress with a parent unless the student gives explicit consent. So a parent can call and demand information all they want, but I cannot tell them if their child is attending class, what their grades are, how they are performing, if I can make accommodations ...nothing.
Sorry if that was wrong about your nationality. I mixed you up with another educator who said she was in Canada. You're not the one with the political science degree? Bah, I can't keep them all straight.
Feel free to give up but you don't have to feel exasperated with my. I thought we established our understanding already. I paraphrased your message back to you which you confirmed. We get eachother, we just disagree. I got your point - the mom was rude and shouldn't be speaking for her adult child. I heard that. She was rude in how she asked and inappropriate in that she's the mom, not the student. Your "first thought" was sphincter, so I'm saying your "immediate reaction" was shitty and closed minded. Sphincter is not an open minded response to anything imho. I understand that you disagree. Perhaps your brain to mouth filter saved you from burping in her face in your final verbal response, but I'm criticizing your attitude/reaction more than your ultimate verbal response which I freely admitted from the beginning was missing from your account. I don't particularly care anyway whether you said yes or no, so don't worry about it. You've made yourself clear to me. I do understand. I just don't agree with you. My opinion is that it was shitty to think sphincter instead of thinking "what's this situation and does it merit an accomodation from me?" I even said from the beginning the answer could be no for whatever reason, but it shouldn't be just because you feel morally superior to a mother pleading for her child.
I am disapproving of the idea that the sweetness of the request should be the only factor in whether it gets any serious consideration when one is in a position of authority over others. Authority comes with responsiblity to weild it in a just manner. If your doctor's office refused to give you your medical records because your tone offended the receptionist, do you feel that was open minded or shitty of them? It's one thing to ask for respect when you feel disrespected, it's another to abuse one's power to vindictively punish someone because your feelings were hurt. She didn't come up to you on the street speaking to you rudely. She came to you in your capacity as THE teacher. Pleas should be judged on their merit according to your policy, not to the perceived rudeness of the deliver. Defend your right to be addressed respectfuly separately from how you handle your work. That's my opinion. Done. Horse. Dead.
I understand the law protects confidential information from being disemminated by educators. It's not confidential what Emily would say to a possible accomodation for conflicting schedules. The mom didn't ask for the grades or to control Emily's mind or something illegal. I wasn't saying she should have either. Nevermind though. Emily says making an accomodation to her syllabus would be a federally protected confidential piece of information. I don't care to call a lawyer to refute her claim. I disagree that this is correct and think it's shitty overall. This horse is really really dead now.
I personally would not argue for a grade unless it was a mistake (mix up) nor has my mother been involved in running my life for me since I was 18. I tried to get away from her multiple times since 16, but legally, she could drag me back. I can believe things are not wrong, but still not choose them for myself right? Like I don't think gayness is inherently wrong though I'm not gay myself. I don't think it's absolutely wrong for a parent to manage their child's education, not their paying jobs, but their education. Anyone who is not accepting and willing to work with cultural differences is shitty imho.
Teachers aren't apparently considered employees? No such thing as customer service for education employees? Even public education employees have a public they are serving.
Law (in America) confers certain privileges and rights on an individual at age 18. It does not require that parents give up management control of their kid's lives at any certain age.
No, the law does not dictate that parents step back and let their grown children learn how to act like adults. Decent parenting does.
Anybody care to place bets on whether Seesaw is going to helicopter the shit out of her children? And totally rationalize it to herself and any poor bastard who has to listen that she's doing the right thing?
Is everyone on this board ready to acknowledge that THEY are entitled twats because they were raised by baby boomer parents?
Or is that only other baby boomer parents, other boomer's children?
I think it's pretty ridiculous to generalize like that about an entire (and quite huge) generation, but the people on this board who slam boomer parents for spoiling their kids somehow fail to realize that they are either boomer parents themselves - or spoiled kids.
What are you talking about?!
I'm talking about your baby boomer hatred and your generalizations of them as bad parents who spoiled their kids.
You said you wanted them to admit it. Most likely, you are the child of a boomer - so are you going to cop to being spoiled?
It just seems like everyone here has a story about how OTHER kids (not them) are the spoiled ones, even while holding steadfast to their opinions that boomers are the shittiest people ever, - except for their own mom and dad.
This was a critique of my uncle on ratemyprofessor at U of TX. I highly doubt he could have swung a "B" in the previous class. (For the record the rest of the comments are what a great teacher he is, how much they learned, despite (or because of) the fact that he's a hard grader with high expectations.
this man here!! ughh his class was ridiculous.. i took history 1310 the first time around with mauck and due to blowing the final i made a D in maucks class but could have easily pulled a B. to replace my D i retook it this time around with (uncle). after checking out all the professors i was fooled by previous writters. this man is a ridiculous
A prime example of why I despair of the next generation.
I will admit I raised entitled brats. I'm still trying to figure out how that happened. I was "don't get the grades, you don't get the rewards." I bought them a helluvalot of clothes, and nice ones, but didn't buy them everything they wanted (or anywhere close). No cell phones (I got my first when they were in middle/high school and I certainly wasn't going to buy them phones when I'd not had one and they weren't getting proper grades.) I caught them ditching and I (literally, on two occasions) dragged them back to school by the ear. As young adults they're of the "I had a horrible childhood so you owe me" - or at least two of them are. Two of them have given up and understand that I give them what I *want* to give them, not what they're owed because life wasn't sugar plum fairies and rainbow dust but the other two resent the hell out of me because I won't give them whatever they want because I'm "rich" and I can afford it so why aren't I??? Why am I spoiling the grands but not giving the kids any money? It's not faaaaairrrr Oh, yes it is. You want what I have, go back to school and earn it.