I don't frown on it, but some of the posts I've seen on here about it leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like the idea of a church dictating what you give and I get the impression on here that that is frequently the case. I'm Catholic and my family was pretty poor growing up. We went to Mass every week and most times my family only gave $1 or $2 each week. I really hate the idea that God or the church were looking down on my parents for not giving 10%. That disgusts me.
And I hate the idea that the tithing should "hurt". That makes no sense. Ten percent of my income wouldn't hurt me. Am I supposed to give more until I hit an amount that hurts?
Post by hannamaren on Jan 20, 2013 20:47:32 GMT -5
I am not a fan of religion but if people go to a club every week and enjoy themselves, they should pay something for it, right? The nice thing about this club is you pay what you want. So in that case, I think people are dumb for giving that makes their family hurt. I also judge the church for making people feel guilty if their main reason for being is to be charitable.
Post by SusanBAnthony on Jan 20, 2013 20:53:05 GMT -5
I don't frown on tithing itself, but I majorly side eye the fact that it is (for tax purposes) considered charitable giving. I do not think religious organizations, or any charities with a religious mission (catholic charities) should be tax exempt.
I do frown on it if you obviously can't afford it.
I will admit that churches, and religions, that requires a tithe are unsettling to me on a personal level. Watching people scrape by and tithe 10% makes me sad.
If it's what people really want to do then that's fine.
Tithing is not supposed to hurt. That is a very poor voice of words and not at all what the bible says.
I take no issues with tithing, I do take issue with some churches and how they use their tithes and police their members to make sure they get their 10%. I used to live near a large church that several of my family members attended. Every year they required a copy of tax returns for members so they could make sure that each member gave 10%. I had family members who lived of food stamps and still gave 10%.
As for those who tithing and struggle financially, I'd like to remind you that the bible also has some things to say about debt and taking care of your family.
I'm with the school that says tithing should come first and that it should hurt. Tithing is not giving to a club or a charity so you can feel good about yourself, so you can have a tax deduction, etc. Tithing should also not be dictated by the church. It is a personal thing between you (and your spouse) and God. If you can only squeeze out a dollar, that's okay. If you're dropping 50% and can't even feel it, you should be doing more. Where is that line between what you should spend on yourself and what you should give? I really don't know. Deep down I feel like I should live simply, with a small home, simple belongings, not much extra of anything and give everything else. Yet I still own a 1250 square ft home that is quite comfortable.
The moral of the story is, tithing is about trust in God and obedience. When you give until it hurts, you are putting all of your faith in God and trusting in Him to provide for you.
I frown on a forced amount of tithing. I'm Catholic, ABCs the message had always been "give what you can, with a joyous heart."
Another poster mentioned the use of envelopes by parishioners at Catholic churches - those are.actually used to gauge attendance, not the amount of giving.
I tithe, so don't frown upon people that do. The churches I've been to(and I've been to a lot over the years) teach about giving and its importance, but no one has ever checked up on my giving.
I think the "give until it hurts" is a play off the scripture that says, I will not offer to God that which costs me nothing.
Post by IrishBelle on Jan 20, 2013 22:21:36 GMT -5
I personally don't tithe but I don't have an issue with tithing provide the person can still support themselves/their family. I also think that non-financial contributions to the church can replace financial ones.
I'm with the school that says tithing should come first and that it should hurt. Tithing is not giving to a club or a charity so you can feel good about yourself, so you can have a tax deduction, etc. Tithing should also not be dictated by the church. It is a personal thing between you (and your spouse) and God. If you can only squeeze out a dollar, that's okay. If you're dropping 50% and can't even feel it, you should be doing more. Where is that line between what you should spend on yourself and what you should give? I really don't know. Deep down I feel like I should live simply, with a small home, simple belongings, not much extra of anything and give everything else. Yet I still own a 1250 square ft home that is quite comfortable.
The moral of the story is, tithing is about trust in God and obedience. When you give until it hurts, you are putting all of your faith in God and trusting in Him to provide for you.
I know this is flameful to judge someone else's beliefs, but I find this bizarre that people knowingly make unwise choices (giving until it hurts) to prove their faith in God. It seems irresponsible, but perhaps I am misintrepting the meaning of giving until it hurts. If it simply means, less material things then okay, I guess. But, if it means no retirement savings or no cushion to pay for little Johnny's emergency illness, then I think that stinks. Why wouldn't God want people to be self-sufficient (using the money we made from working with the skills God gave us) and not co-dependent (sitting around and waiting for God to intervene and save us). Again, I realize I may be misinterpreting your statement, but this is just what I thought when I read it.
I have mixed feelings on it. I respect that people feel that contributing to an organization that they attend weekly and benefit from (spiritually, socially, etc.) is a financial priority. I respect that people feel that giving to others in need is a financial priority (and many churches do some good charitable work with part of that money.) Needing to "pay God" is not part of my religious identity, so I guess it's not really my place to weigh in on that. I do think that people who are struggling financially and want to tithe need to realize that they're going to have to make more sacrifices in other areas than people who don't tithe.
I would never want to be a member of a church where my contribution amount was judged or I was only welcome based on a certain financial contribution. But as a socially conscious liberal I really wish that people who don't feel an obligation from God felt compelled to give more to many of the non-religious charities I believe in.
I had a former coworker who tithed to a church where there was a heavy guilt culture. She had debt collectors calling the office all the time, borrowed from people and couldn't pay it back, and did a lot of things that ended up costing her money in the long run (and negatively impacting her own child) due to short term cash flow issues. I have a hard time getting behind being a member of an organization that would ask this of its members.
I always appreciated that my church interpreted "tithing" as charitable giving. Yes, give first, and give generously, but any giving is good. Give 2% of your salary to United Way? That's a form of tithing. Buy napkins and cutlery for the homeless shelter meal? That's a form of tithing. People were asked to pledge an annual amount to the church, even if it was $5, so that they could plan for their budget.
I was happy to give to my church, because I knew the money was (a) going to programs that I participated in and enjoyed, like the choir, and (b) they also gave SO much back to the local community. I can't get behind churches who push, push, push for people to give until it hurts, and then the pastor is driving around in a flashy car, or the money mostly stays inside the building.
I don't find anything wrong with tithing. However, the people who clearly don't have the money for it should find other means to help the church. It's hypocritical IMO to have lots of debt which is typically due to buying things you can't afford and say you have to follow the rule for tithing.
I frown upon churches that guilt its members into tithing.
I frown upon people who blindly give 10% to the church and cannot explain to me what the church does with the $. Then when they are asked why they give if they are not sure what happens to the money they shrug and say "well I have done my part the rest is up to the church."
I do believe that tithing and specifically paying 10% of my income is a commandment from God. I actually do believe that remains true even when we struggle financially. For me it is showing faith and trust in God even when it is hard. No church should refuse someone because they do not pay tithing.
I agree with this. To go even further, I believe that your tithing should always be the first things you pay. In our home our income is what we have after we pay tithing. We budget (or try to) our housing, cars, fun money, etc. to be affordable AFTER we have removed titihing from the equation. In my mind this is just smart money sense. We were preapproved for $500k on a home loan. We are building a house for $260k because there was no way we could afford the higher amount on our income (wages less tithing). If you are in debt your should cut other places or get a second job. Tithing is not the place to cut. I also believe it should be a sacrifice to an extent. In addition to tithes we give other offerings for our church welfare program. This should be month in an amount equal to or greater than the price of two meals. If you have more, you should give more. We are in a fairly good financial place so we give far more than the price of two meals. It works for us.
I only have a problem with it when I see a budget of someone who clearly can't afford to be giving away that much money and refuses to consider reducing the amount.
Ditto.
Oftentimes people will come and post a budget with a fair amount of debt, or little to no retirement, or barely making ends meet or a combination of all three, and say that reducing tithing is non-negotiable. That shouldn't be. There are other ways to give to the church than monetarily, plus there are passages in the Bible that express owing another man (having debt) is bad, and that not being able to provide for yourself precludes you from having to tithe.
I support tithing (or any other charitable giving) for those who can afford it. I also tend to have more empathy for those who cannot afford it but feel compelled to tithe, than, for example, those who overspend in other areas.
I agree with this.
I haven't read all of the replies but I think some people are against it because they believe that many do it out of pressure even if they truly don't have the money: to be in "good status" with the church or with God, that it's somehow sinful not to do it.
Where does G-d command that you give 10% of your pre-tax income to the church?
Only in the Old Testament. Below is the first mention.
30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it.32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. Leviticus 27:30-32 (NIV)
There are numerous similar passages throughout the Old Testament.
Many people like to support tithing by the following passage in Malachi - especially prosperity churches where the assumption is everything you give God will be given back with interest.
8 “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me.
“But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’
“In tithes and offerings.9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me.10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. Malachi 3:8-10 (NIV)
Nothing in the New Testament specifically refers to tithing however giving to the church is mentioned on multiple occasions. Paul writes,
1 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do.2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (NIV)
and later
7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)
Where does G-d command that you give 10% of your pre-tax income to the church?
I know the church I attended as a kid- the priest which was driving a benz at the time commanded everyone to give at least 10% or more. In that case I knew where the money was going.
For the record, I've never attended a church that had any kind of mandatory giving. I've been at churches where they do distribute envelopes but that is for ease/convenience of members and whoever compiles the statements for charitable giving. Many churches I've attended do discuss giving even from the pulpit and encourage members to give and talk about what the money goes towards. Several churches I've been to ask for members to pledge to give an amount for the year (chosen by the individual member) to facilitate budget planning.
I do tithe out of my gross income. I do it out of my gross because I think it should be the first item of my budget. I do work hard for my money but God has blessed me with everything I have so I give back before anything else. The rest of my budget is based on my post-tax, post-tithe pay. Since I've always done that, it's relatively easy to prioritize that way. I agree with what everyone has said about priorities and for me it is a priority to tithe first.
I am also fortunate that my husband and I have a comfortable income now. This makes me feel like I should give more. My family really stresses the parable of the three stewards with the idea being if you've been entrusted with a lot, a lot is expected. We have a comfortable income so we can afford to give more. So we also donate to other charities in addition to our tithe. This also applies to the time and talents others have spoken of. For me, I like to donate time and talents above and beyond my money. They are separate for me.
I would like to stress that this is what my husband and I have decided to do. It doesn't necessarily make it right for anyone else.
I agree with what many of the pro-tithing posters have answered. Also C.S. Lewis who said, "“I do not believe one can settle how much we ought to give. I am afraid the only safe rule is to give [like the widow] more than we can spare."
Post by lurkergirl123 on Jan 21, 2013 16:52:37 GMT -5
In my previous line of work I counseled people who had financial problems. I literally had people sit before me who had no lights or running water in their home, but were tithing 10% of their social security check. I had (and still have) a huge problem with that. It makes me feel sick years later just to think about it.
I frown on a forced amount of tithing. I'm Catholic, ABCs the message had always been "give what you can, with a joyous heart."
Another poster mentioned the use of envelopes by parishioners at Catholic churches - those are.actually used to gauge attendance, not the amount of giving.
Ours (Catholic) are used in case you want to give cash but still have it recorded for tax purposes and for privacy if you use a check. Many churches will do automatic drafts, so they definitely don't use envelopes as an accurate gauge of attendance (the ushers generally just count people at each service).
At some churches, they do want to see that you are either donating or volunteering or contributing in some way if you want to get married there, etc. This is especially true of a lot of the older, more classically beautiful churches since there are people who join just because they like how the church looks but don't intend to actually attend/support the church.
This is true. Also, when I was in Catholic elementary school, they used envelope usage to determine whether the families were fulfilling their obligation to attend the associated church regularly, which was deemed as 3 out of 4 Sundays. We actually lived in the adjacent parish, so I remember my parents needing to get an exemption letter each school year.
I never understand why people are so adamant about tithing but not about other things in the Old Testsment.
I also find it strange that people think that God will bless and reward them if they tithe. To me, the logical reason to tithe is because you want to help support the operations and activities of your church.
I think it's a little silly when people tithe and can't afford it. By "can't afford it", I mean aren't saving (retirement or otherwise), can barely scrape by on living let alone pay their debts, etc.
My mom and I would go to church every Sunday and I know she gave what she could at the time. She was a single mom raising 4 kids, so 10% wasn't a possibility. She volunteered, my brothers were altar boys and CCD teachers, etc. It's not all about the money. Now I am sure she tithes at least 10% because she CAN.