s/o - We are a CHRISTIAN nation!!!

[fussbucket]

What do you think -- honestly -- when you hear people say this about the US?

I've got a rather strong opinion about this that I'll hold until I've heard some others.

[Muddled]

"...One nation under GOD..."

Duh, Fuss.

[malibu]

100 years ago, I'd believe the US was primarily a Christian nation.

Today? I would look at anyone who said that like they have two heads, or wonder from under what rocked they climbed.

[Deleted]

:^)  *-) IDK, these faces seem to sum up what I am thinking. I also think this phrase gets said a lot in the south where people live under that rock that malibu described. 

[Muddled]

SIncerely, I believe that this country was partially founded by those escaping religious persecution and although it may have been founded with Judeo-Christian values in mind, we have no national religion on purpose.

As an American citizen, I have the right in my country to practice any religion I choose or no religion at all.

[malibu]

I agree with you, Muddled.

[smock]

It really, really bothers me when people say this is a Christian nation. I'm not Christian, so does that mean I'm somehow unwelcome here? Or that I'm not a "real" American?

[gault]

It ruffles my feathers, and gives us a blanket excuse for some types of discrimination.

[pedanticwench]

I think the people who say this are a bit stupid and very ignorant of history and politics. I also tend to think they live isolated from other cultures and ethnic groups and choose to ignore the fact that America is made up of so many different races, religions, and creeds.

[partiallysunny]

I don't like the phrase. It doesn't make me angry, but I don't think it's accurate and is usually used in the wrong context.

[soozy87]

Feb 6, 2013 13:52:59 GMT -5 Muddled said:

SIncerely, I believe that this country was partially founded by those escaping religious persecution and although it may have been founded with Judeo-Christian values in mind, we have no national religion on purpose.

As an American citizen, I have the right in my country to practice any religion I choose or no religion at all.

I agree with this.

[Chirp]

I agree with pretty much everyone so far.

It irks me when people are all "our constitution grants us freedom of religion so everyone should just get in line since this country was founded as a Christian nation".

No, nutbag, actually it grants freedom from religion. There is this thing called religious persecution that we're trying to avoid. Read a book.

[fussbucket]

Feb 6, 2013 14:16:47 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

I think the people who say this are a bit stupid and very ignorant of history and politics. I also tend to think they live isolated from other cultures and ethnic groups and choose to ignore the fact that America is made up of so many different races, religions, and creeds.

This is basically where I'm at except I'd go farther than giving them the stupid and ignorant pass to asserting this worldview is basically evil. Evil to the extent that they are intentionally denying the validity of those other beliefs and cultures and attempting to impose a white Christian hegemony by virtue of their (diminishing) majority on the (growing) non-Christian minority in this country.

So it does make me angry. Quite angry. If for no other reason than how hypocritical it is, i.e. not very Christian (q.v. love all of God's creations) AND not very American (q.v. 1st and 14th Amendments).

I wish there were a stronger voice for more sane, moderate Christians in this country, instead of a few dingbat wingnuts pretending as if they speak for all of them.

ETA: bolded above. Because yeah.

[smock]

Feb 6, 2013 14:16:47 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

I think the people who say this are a bit stupid and very ignorant of history and politics. I also tend to think they live isolated from other cultures and ethnic groups and choose to ignore the fact that America is made up of so many different races, religions, and creeds.

I agree with Pedantic, too.

So Fuss, spill.

ETA: Damn, fuss beat me to it by seconds! And now I look like a fool!

[wrathofkuus]

Honestly, my first thought is that the person saying it is an uneducated redneck.

[Muddled]

I feel like I need to wash my hands now.

[bowies]

I can't believe I'm about to do this, but I'm gonna tell you a sorority story because I think it relates.

My sorority's founders used the Bible and "Christian principles" when chartering the very first chapter. That language endures to this day because, yanno, tradition and stuff. I never thought much about it, mainly because I went to Catholic school and was used to it. My own chapter was very diverse so it didn't strike me as a problem. In my alumni years, I became an advisor and it was my job to talk to new members about the biblical passages. Not from a "you will say this and mean it" perspective, but from a "this was our founders' source material, the message is a good one, but you are not required to be a Christian or even say this if you do not want to" perspective. The new members, by and large, don't give a shit, but it makes me feel better that the sorority makes it a big deal to be inclusionary.

All that to say, I wish that all Americans operated that way. Acknowledge the past and the frame of reference our founding fathers had, but also realize that these "Christian" values have applicability beyond, and separate from, religion. I believe that was their intention.

[pedanticwench]

Feb 6, 2013 14:29:56 GMT -5 fussbucket said:

Feb 6, 2013 14:16:47 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

I think the people who say this are a bit stupid and very ignorant of history and politics. I also tend to think they live isolated from other cultures and ethnic groups and choose to ignore the fact that America is made up of so many different races, religions, and creeds.

This is basically where I'm at except I'd go farther than giving them the stupid and ignorant pass to asserting this worldview is basically evil. Evil to the extent that they are intentionally denying the validity of those other beliefs and cultures and attempting to impose a white Christian hegemony by virtue of their (diminishing) majority on the (growing) non-Christian minority in this country.

So it does make me angry. Quite angry. If for no other reason than how hypocritical it is, i.e. not very Christian (q.v. love all of God's creations) AND not very American (q.v. 1st and 14th Amendments).

I wish there were a stronger voice for more sane, moderate Christians in this country, instead of a few dingbat wingnuts pretending as if they speak for all of them.

ETA: bolded above. Because yeah.

You know, I've never thought about it that way but, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, I've thought about the white thing and I feel that it's mostly white Christians who say it, but I didn't ever really think of it as a particularly evil way of thinking, until now.

[wrathofkuus]

I always hear it from the same people who are in favor of mandatory drug testing for welfare and pass around that lame FB story about the college professor teaching socialism by giving everyone the class average.

[Deleted]

It makes me wonder what other historically dead American "norms" they want to return to. Black folks knowing their place? Injuns with small pox? Women barefoot and in the kitchen?

[smock]

That's a great point, Habs, because the response to this always seems to be "The Founding Fathers WANTED America to be a Christian nation! They FOUNDED us that way!"

Uh, yeah, and they also founded us as a slave-holding nation.

[wrathofkuus]

Habbs, in my experience, they loudly and vocally want to return to all of those.

[Chirp]

Feb 6, 2013 16:56:05 GMT -5 wrathofkuus said:

Habbs, in my experience, they loudly and vocally want to return to all of those.

Yeah, that's pretty much my experience too.

Well, except the Injuns with small pox bit. But that's because half of my family is dominately Native American (my dad's grandparents were full blood Cherokee).

[malibu]

Hey, what's wrong with being barefoot in the kitchen? If that's a bad thing, I'm doing something wrong.

[Muddled]

I hear you, bowies.

I feel like people have a hard time remembering that the constitution was written over 200 years ago and quite a few things have changed since then. There is something to be said for taking a dose of reality along with your interpretation.

[bowies]

Feb 6, 2013 17:27:51 GMT -5 Muddled said:

I hear you, bowies.

I feel like people have a hard time remembering that the constitution was written over 200 years ago and quite a few things have changed since then. There is something to be said for taking a dose of reality along with your interpretation.

Yes, I also believe the founders were clear that the constitution was supposed to be a living document. Hence all that amendment business.

"Because that's the way it started" is always a very poor defense to an argument. Things evolve (and yes I used that word on purpose ).

[smock]

Well I started as a monkey, according to Darwin, so no one better complain when I start throwing feces.

[fussbucket]

Feb 6, 2013 15:05:40 GMT -5 bowies said:

I can't believe I'm about to do this, but I'm gonna tell you a sorority story because I think it relates.

My sorority's founders used the Bible and "Christian principles" when chartering the very first chapter. That language endures to this day because, yanno, tradition and stuff. I never thought much about it, mainly because I went to Catholic school and was used to it. My own chapter was very diverse so it didn't strike me as a problem. In my alumni years, I became an advisor and it was my job to talk to new members about the biblical passages. Not from a "you will say this and mean it" perspective, but from a "this was our founders' source material, the message is a good one, but you are not required to be a Christian or even say this if you do not want to" perspective. The new members, by and large, don't give a shit, but it makes me feel better that the sorority makes it a big deal to be inclusionary.

All that to say, I wish that all Americans operated that way. Acknowledge the past and the frame of reference our founding fathers had, but also realize that these "Christian" values have applicability beyond, and separate from, religion. I believe that was their intention.

And by comparison to the origins of your private organization, I believe we can all agree that there were no Bible verses written into the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights. Why, you'd think it was deliberate that way.

But according to the CHRISTIAN NATION folks, I guess we don't "render unto Caesar" anymore either. So honestly I'm just baffled by the whole thing.

[fussbucket]

Feb 6, 2013 17:47:35 GMT -5 smock said:

Well I started as a monkey, according to Darwin, so no one better complain when I start throwing feces.

As long as you remember the safe word, smock, it's all good.

[smock]

Is the safe word "Christian Nation"?