I saw an interview with, I think, the mother. She claims that the girl has shown some signs of activity and that is why she is not ready to let go.
I really can't imagine how I would deal with this kind of situation but I can certainly understand clinging to the faintest sliver of hope. However, I do hope the family is able to face reality soon for everyone's sake. Most of all their own, so they can begin healing.
I had mine out at 27 (I'm 33 now) and got a terrible infection on my tongue (when your own mother dry heaves looking at it, you know shit has gotten real) and allergic reaction to the antibiotics. I'm allergic to penicillin but whatever they gave me made me throw up for days. I had to go back in the hospital for IV fluids because I couldn't keep water down. It was a real pain in my ass. I lost 14 pounds, but found them all like the champion I am. I do have to say, it's the best thing I ever did. Once they gave me fluids and that miracle drug Zofran, I was like a new woman and now I never get sick.
I feel so bad for this little girl. I hope they let her go soon.
I'm glad it had been worth it. I just told DH that I am so ready to better. I also have lost weight. It's awful, but if it fixes all of my problems like it should it will be worth it.
It was definitely worth it but don't make plans and I couldn't imagine having kids while trying to recover. My reaction was also not normal. Most adults do better than I did. My surgeon was baffled. He kept saying unhelpful shit like, "Wow, I've never seen anyone be so sick." and "You really need to come back in and let me check your electrolytes." I was like, "Neat. I'm a newly wed and I barfed on my husband's shoes this morning and I'm hallucinating big fucking spiders. Oh and I have thrush on my tongue. I need you to up your game." All that barfing could have ripped my stitches too, so I thank baby Hey Zeus that did not happen. It's better to get it over with than to keep taking round after round of antibiotics. Those are terrible for you.
Post by lightyears on Dec 27, 2013 17:45:22 GMT -5
This whole situation is very sad. I have seen it happen time and time again. I remember a family telling a doctor that they were holding out for a miracle. Ugh.
Anyway, the hospital is in no way responsible to provide this girl with a feeding tube. Numerous medical opinions have come back with brain death diagnoses.
I am curious about the complexity of the case. I had my tonsils out in a same-day surgery facility as an adult. I have seen post-op bleeds before and they are no joke. But I just wonder about what the complications were and if the family will ever release that information.
I have always felt strongly about removing people who are brain dead from life support and let them pass in peace. However, last year my nephew was in a horrific car crash and was taken to a highly renowned Trauma 1 intensive care unit and we were told by many dr's that he was brain dead for over a week. His mother (my ex-sil) would not give up on him, while everyone else in the family was ready to let him go on. Needless to say, he woke up and is a typical man today. He has some short term memory issues and lost his hearing in his right ear completely, but he works and takes care of his family. He was in the hospital for weeks and rehab for a few months. His accident was in Sept. 2012. He is a walking miracle. It has totally changed my mind on the brain dead issue.
Was brain death testing officially done by two Doctors and confirmed with either an apnea test or brain flow study? Just curious if it was only mentioned vs confirmed.
I really hurt for the family, but at the same time the girl is brain dead. You can't come back from that, right?
No you cannot come back from that.
Someone else mentioned the Terri Schiavo case. She had damage to her brain leading her to be comatose but was not brain dead.
In my experience, people who are brain dead their body only lasts for a few weeks.
Yes, pretty soon she's going to start to decompose, and that's not pretty. Back in the '80's I took care of a brain-person whose family couldn't let go. She started to stink (the decomposition), and the family accused us of not bathing her. One family member tried washing her arm and big sheets of flesh came off. I think I will remember the sight (and smell) of that for the rest of my life.
Holy shit, this was the result of a tonsillectomy???!
Well fuck me. I was just talking to BF about how I want to have my tonsils taken out next month. I'm getting frequent strep throat. I've had it 5 times this year already. This is scary!
Yeah I seriously need to have mine taken out... they are so big anytime I get strep they swell up even more to the point of closing up my airway. But this shit just scares the bejeezus out of me. I think for now i'll take my chances with strep...
I think clearly there either a genuine lack of understanding of what it means to be brain dead (on the part of the family) and/or a lack of ability to comprehend what it means to be brain dead due to either religious belief and/or grief/shock. Doctors are able to separate themselves from the person and look at the 'case' (at a great emotional toll over time) and just look at the facts. Not all parents/families can do that. I don't think the hospital's comment about not performing surgeries on people who are 'dead' is in their best interest, since really, the body isn't dead, the brain is. They can keep that body alive (for however long) so technically they CAN do the surgery. They just don't think it will make any difference. (edit: or rather, they KNOW it won't make any difference).
No they cannot do surgery. There is no difference medically or legally between being brain or "body" dead. Dead is dead. Believing they are different is the issue at hand. So you can understand differently, it would mean the same thing as taking a body out of the morgue and completely a procedure. When you are brain dead and then your body dies, your death certificate is dated and timed from when you are declared- not from when you are off support or your heart stops which can be days after the fact.
So clarify for me...can a brain dead body be kept alive? As in, can it's heart still pump blood? Because I am pretty sure the child in this story has not been 'declared dead', she has been declared 'brain dead', so in case I am missing something, her heart is still still pumping blood (yes, by way of a machine), but legally there must be a difference, or else there would never be cases where families wanted to keep the machines running when the others wanted to turn them off. So while medically there may be no difference, legally there must be.
OK, but even if this is possible (and I'm skeptical), it's an incredibly slim chance, right? I feel bad for the family in the worst way, but I feel worse for this girl. She's basically gone...let her rest in peace.
No they cannot do surgery. There is no difference medically or legally between being brain or "body" dead. Dead is dead. Believing they are different is the issue at hand. So you can understand differently, it would mean the same thing as taking a body out of the morgue and completely a procedure. When you are brain dead and then your body dies, your death certificate is dated and timed from when you are declared- not from when you are off support or your heart stops which can be days after the fact.
So clarify for me...can a brain dead body be kept alive? As in, can it's heart still pump blood? Because I am pretty sure the child in this story has not been 'declared dead', she has been declared 'brain dead', so in case I am missing something, her heart is still still pumping blood (yes, by way of a machine), but legally there must be a difference, or else there would never be cases where families wanted to keep the machines running when the others wanted to turn them off. So while medically there may be no difference, legally there must be.
I can only speak for California but brain death is death both legally and medically. Death was confirmed as a result of an irreversible cessation of all functions of her entire brain, including her brain stem according to California Health & Safety Code § 7180. The second brain death note is both the legal and medical death that will be issues on the death certificate.
This determination has been made by numerous physicians—including physicians unaffiliated with Children’s—satisfying the requirements of Health & Safety Code § 7181 for determining death.
Health & Safety Code § 1254.5 allows the family to have ample notice before removing the ventilator and that seems to be the loop hole that the family is using.
Children’s is under no legal obligation to provide medical or other intervention for a deceased Person. In the cases I have been involved with, the family is accepting of the brain death diagnosis and does not try to prevent the ventilator from being removed.
Also want to point out that the ventilator is keeping her organs functioning and not keeping her alive. She is not on life support, she is on mechanical ventilation that is providing her oxygen that will keep her heart pumping blood. Eventually, she will go into multi system organ failure.
So clarify for me...can a brain dead body be kept alive? As in, can it's heart still pump blood? Because I am pretty sure the child in this story has not been 'declared dead', she has been declared 'brain dead', so in case I am missing something, her heart is still still pumping blood (yes, by way of a machine), but legally there must be a difference, or else there would never be cases where families wanted to keep the machines running when the others wanted to turn them off. So while medically there may be no difference, legally there must be.
I can only speak for California but brain death is death both legally and medically. Death was confirmed as a result of an irreversible cessation of all functions of her entire brain, including her brain stem according to California Health & Safety Code § 7180. The second brain death note is both the legal and medical death that will be issues on the death certificate.
This determination has been made by numerous physicians—including physicians unaffiliated with Children’s—satisfying the requirements of Health & Safety Code § 7181 for determining death.
Health & Safety Code § 1254.5 allows the family to have ample notice before removing the ventilator and that seems to be the loop hole that the family is using.
Children’s is under no legal obligation to provide medical or other intervention for a deceased Person. In the cases I have been involved with, the family is accepting of the brain death diagnosis and does not try to prevent the ventilator from being removed.
The hospital can not legally comment at all on this case. There are a million possible reasons why this girl died. We do not know anything other than what the family is sharing. The parents are told pre-op and before they agree to surgery that death is a possible outcome.
The case is no doubt sad. But right now, the focus of the story shouldn't be that a tonsillectomy caused a girl to be brain dead. It should be that the family is not coming to terms with what that means.
What Lucy posted shows that the hospital has gone to incredible lengths to accommodate the family and their grief.
Also want to point out that the ventilator is keeping her organs functioning and not keeping her alive. She is not on life support, she is on mechanical ventilation that is providing her oxygen that will keep her heart pumping blood. Eventually, she will go into multi system organ failure.
In this case the vent is keeping her body alive. What do you consider the difference between mechanical Vent and life support?
I think the distinction is that alive is not the same as organs functioning.
This story is in my local news and I can tell you, the hospital has been acting shady from the start. They haven't been compassionate towards their family at all. I don't get the hospital's strong need to flip the switch on this child when her family is begging for more time with her.
The family wants to put her in another facility to care for her but need a surgery done to allow a feeding tube to be inserted, the hospital is denying that request. Just do it already and get them out of your hair you POS hospital! I would never bring my child there.
Agreed. And issuing statement after statement with verbiage "the body" etc is just so fucking cruel
Post by copperboom on Dec 28, 2013 11:35:02 GMT -5
This story is so sad. I think the family is in extreme denial, but I can't blame them one bit. I can't imagine how desperate I would be in that situation.
Agreed. And issuing statement after statement with verbiage "the body" etc is just so fucking cruel
I have to disagree. This person has been brain dead for two weeks. The hospital has provided every service possible for the family, clerical and social worker support, special security, special visitation times, extended hours, extended amounts of people who can come in to see the girl. What they cannot do is bring the child back to life. That is what is so cruel about this. Not the fact that the hospital needs to get the ICU room back in use for someone that can benefit from it, get the ventilator back in use with a patient it can help survive and return to his or her family. This is the season of flu, pneumonia, RSV, winter ice car accidents, suicides, on top of the regular emergencies. That hospital has probably 10 ICU rooms it can provide for its critically ill children, and maybe MAYBE 50 ventilators, tops, that work on any given day, half of which need to be in use for planned and unplanned surgical procedures and ER traumas and the other half for critically ill patients who cannot breathe on their own. it is manifestly cruel to have to deny useful services to patients who can benefit from them, so as to give this family yet more time with a dead child whose body is having air forced into it 25 times a minute or more.
I've sat by my children's beds, waiting and praying and hoping against hope that something might happen to shift the hand of death away from their throats, and god help me, both times it happened. Both times they were fully functioning, with no brain injury; just so ill that they were not expected to recover. I've also sat and watched people I loved die, sometimes hard, sometimes easy, when there was absolutely nothing more to pray for but death; two of them in brain death situations. It is wickedly cruel to pretend that's 'life'.
Jfc calm down chick, all the hospital has to do is perform a trach, insert a feeding tube and xfer the girl. Instead of issuing endless statements about "body", just prolonging this pr nightmare, etc..
And walla! They can then use all that equipment on the people you and they deem worthy.
From what I'm reading, I really side eye any facility that agrees to take her and joins the fight to prolong her "life". Just my opinion, but it's not compassionate and it's wrong to offer the family such hope.
It was hard enough for me to decide to say good bye and put down beloved family pets, so I sympathize with how much harder it is to make the decision to say good bye to your child. It's not how things should go. Sadly, sometimes it does happen, and I really think clinging to this hope she can live again isn't best for anyone. At some point you need to start grieving. Even though you don't want to.
I'm not trying to speak for Audry but its not life support because she's already dead.
Yahoo just passed an update: The hospital was granted by the court to remove the breathing tube on 12/30 at 1700.
I am glad to hear that update.
Medically I don't know if there's a difference between the two terms. I've never heard it spoken like that, if there is. She's brain dead but still technically alive. Maybe we're splitting hairs:)
No difference medically but we use that term when writing hospital policy and when talking to the family about organ donation.
This isn't an issue of being "worthy" of care. She's not being refused care because she can't pay or is black or is a female or because the hospital is a dick. She's dead. I'm WTF that the family wants a feeding tube inserted in a dead person. As much as my heart hurts for the family, it's becoming ridiculous. They need to face reality. That little girl is gone and she can't even rest in peace because they family refuses to believe that she's gone, even though more than one doctor has come out and said she is.
Based on what others have posted, I don't see how the hospital could have done any more for the child and her family.
I assume the hospital staff are trying to be blunt in the hope of getting the message through to the family. I just worry about the facility they hope to transfer her to--won't that be incredibly expensive or are they planning to file some sort of suit against the hospital?
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread yet.
The hospital staff has to be blunt in these instances. When we're taught how to deliver this kind of news, we're told to use words like "is dead" or "has died". In a state of shock, words like "gone to a better place" or "passed away" can be misleading, believe it or not. Denial is a very normal step in grief so what may seem callous, is actually done to try to help the family.
There will absolutely be a lawsuit. Ambulance Chasers, as we so lovingly call them, will be beating down this family's door with pro bono offers. Even if the hospital WASN'T negligent, they'll likely settle. Most hospitals do this with their cases that aren't so big in the media.
Has anyone else read Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander? Granted, he wasn't declared brain dead if I recall correctly, but it was pretty damn close. And he came back from the brink. So I do think it's possible, even if we don't understand how or why it happens sometimes. I think there are some instances where the human body and mind behave in ways that even doctor's themselves can't explain.
All that said, I believe you @pnkbride. Dr. Alexander isn't the only one it's happened to.
This story is in my local news and I can tell you, the hospital has been acting shady from the start. They haven't been compassionate towards their family at all. I don't get the hospital's strong need to flip the switch on this child when her family is begging for more time with her.
The family wants to put her in another facility to care for her but need a surgery done to allow a feeding tube to be inserted, the hospital is denying that request. Just do it already and get them out of your hair you POS hospital! I would never bring my child there.
Agreed. And issuing statement after statement with verbiage "the body" etc is just so fucking cruel
yeah, they were reallllllly cruel in this statement. Horrible!
"Our hearts go out to Nailah, her family and the community. We understand the intense grief of a mother who has lost a child. We are committed to fully investigating what caused this catastrophic outcome from this complicated surgery. As medical professionals, it is our responsibility to ensure that we don't create hope where there is none. When one's brain ceases to function, it never restarts. We have the deepest sympathy for Jahi's mother who wishes her daughter was alive; but the only thing maintaining this child is a ventilator machine and it would be unfair to give false hope that Jahi will come back to life."
Agreed. And issuing statement after statement with verbiage "the body" etc is just so fucking cruel
yeah, they were reallllllly cruel in this statement. Horrible!
"Our hearts go out to Nailah, her family and the community. We understand the intense grief of a mother who has lost a child. We are committed to fully investigating what caused this catastrophic outcome from this complicated surgery. As medical professionals, it is our responsibility to ensure that we don't create hope where there is none. When one's brain ceases to function, it never restarts. We have the deepest sympathy for Jahi's mother who wishes her daughter was alive; but the only thing maintaining this child is a ventilator machine and it would be unfair to give false hope that Jahi will come back to life."
Sometimes the truth hurts. I don't see how this is cruel? What are they supposed to do, pussyfoot around what is really going on?