I think, at the end of the day, my problem with the death penalty (including this case) is the current penal system as a whole. I don't find the fact that this guy suffered for 40 minutes worse than a guy who suffers in solitary confinement (for example) and I think people on the other side of this debate do find it worse for various reasons.
Am I Carol? Have I lost my humanity?
for me it's the fact that we're already dispensing the ultimate punishment, then it was done completely ineffectively and painfully. he didn't even die from the drugs used, he died of a heart attack. the topper is that he was convulsing and writhing on the gurney (per CNN) and the state still claimed he didn't suffer.
and let's not overlook that this isn't the first person to be executed with this drug cocktail. last time it only took 10 minutes of gasping and convulsions for him to die.
I think, at the end of the day, my problem with the death penalty (including this case) is the current penal system as a whole. I don't find the fact that this guy suffered for 40 minutes worse than a guy who suffers in solitary confinement (for example) and I think people on the other side of this debate do find it worse for various reasons.
Am I Carol? Have I lost my humanity?
for me it's the fact that we're already dispensing the ultimate punishment, then it was done completely ineffectively and painfully. he didn't even die from the drugs used, he died of a heart attack. the topper is that he was convulsing and writhing on the gurney (per CNN) and the state still claimed he didn't suffer.
and let's not overlook that this isn't the first person to be executed with this drug cocktail. last time it only took 10 minutes of gasping and convulsions for him to die.
I can understand that perspective. I think if our penal system was otherwise well run, I would likely be more bothered by the details here. Maybe it's because I think we do such a horrible job in general that I am not surprised (and no more outraged than usual) that this aspect can and does get massively fucked up too. But I do understand why other people feel differently, and it is the most final punishment/fuck up even if I don't necessarily see it as worse than some other things that go on. I also think I am biased by the fact that I would rather die than be confined until I die. I personally think a life in prison is worse than death, and think I would prefer death, even if it required suffering for a short time period.
I also absolutely do think the government needs to carry out these executions in the most humane way possible if they are going to have the death penalty as an option. (Just in case my lack of upset/outrage makes anyone think I don't think it's important).
Even if our penal system was 100 percent perfect (which would be impossible as it is run by humans and humans are imperfect creatures...which is why we have a penal system in the first place) I'm okay with saying that society has no obligation to keep certain criminals alive, and in my opinion these criminals would be the child rapists and murderers or like habs said, those who take pleasure in their torture/killing.
I'm not really sure the Supreme Court would even allow the kinds of things I'd want in a better penal system. I think we have somewhat unrealistic and often contradictory expectations of what the system could/should look like and what prisoners should be/are entitled to.
Even if our penal system was 100 percent perfect (which would be impossible as it is run by humans and humans are imperfect creatures...which is why we have a penal system in the first place) I'm okay with saying that society has no obligation to keep certain criminals alive, and in my opinion these criminals would be the child rapists and murderers or like habs said, those who take pleasure in their torture/killing.
i understand this may not be directed at me but my issue with this isn't if he deserved to die, it's how it was carried out and the aftermath of "meh".
the state set a standard and couldn't and didn't live up to it. that is a problem.
Even though he's not expressed a speck of remorse, and if let out would do the same thing again? Leading to the deaths of more people? You're perfectly ok with that.
Interesting.
Um, I don't support letting Charles Manson out of jail.
I also don't support the death penalty.
And I can't believe I'm having to defend the morality of not empowering the state to kill its citizens.
Yeah, I don't get this. I am very very anti-death penalty. That doesn't mean I want peopel to go free. It doesnt mean I don't think the crimes are horrible. It just means that no matter how horrific the crime is I don't think the state should have the power to put someone to death.
The inmates are on lockdown for 23 hours a day in their cells:
I know I should let this go, but I cannot believe that this is more humane than the death penalty.
I also don't believe the daily abuse and fear that corrections officers deal with in a maximum security prison is decidedly less of a mindfuck than being the COs involved with the execution process.
Quite frankly, I think solitary might be more humane than your average high security cell block.
Is that what is said in the fox article? Because I don't remember reading that from the first article.
ETA: yeah the initial article.says the drugs did not enter his body. The fact that the.drugs were "untested" (incidentally, has that been confirmed? That this was the first inmate to receive this.cocktail and that no testing was done prior to his execution?) is only relevant if the drugs actually went into his body.
The first drug did enter his body, which is apparently the problem. Per the CNN article:
The execution was the first time Oklahoma used midazolam as the first element in its three-drug cocktail. The drug is generally used for children "before medical procedures or before anesthesia for surgery to cause drowsiness, relieve anxiety, and prevent any memory of the event," the U.S. National Library of Medicine says. "It works by slowing activity in the brain to allow relaxation and sleep." The drug "may cause serious or life-threatening breathing problems," so a child should only receive it "in a hospital or doctor's office that has the equipment that is needed to monitor his or her heart and lungs and to provide life-saving medical treatment quickly if his or her breathing slows or stops."
I should have just waited until HBC had responded.
There is no moral right when it comes to individuals who have committed crimes so great they are faced with the death penalty. Either they are faced with death by a government who could give two shits about them, or they are imprisoned for life in a daily psychological torture chamber that is high security prison. There have been several studies that show imprisonment exacerbates any underlying psychological conditions, and rather than treat them, prisoners are left in their own mental morass. Again, there is no moral high ground on this, other than to salve whatever individual guilt you may have by telling yourself one way is better.
Our prison system is irreparably broken. So broken. We don't focus on rehabilitation. We focus on containment and torture, and at this rate, it's never going to change.
Also, has anyone been watching the documentaries regarding solitary confinement that have been airing?
GOOD. Keep him there. He was first sentenced to jail in regular population. He then murdered one of the guards, and then tried to escape and injured another. He put himself in solitary.
just when i thought you had stopped being such a bitch.
Seriously??
what? it's a bitchy comment. i said as much, pixy explained it and i recinded. i only crossed it out because of your comment about the edit to someone else. i didn't want to be accused of rewriting anything.
Also, it was the fact that the IV line that failed that caused this, not the drugs. So I don't know what the "but they're untested!" argument has to do with any of this.
Yeah I've been thinking the same thing. I wanted to read an article about this from the medical perspective because has this never happened before? Is there not a protocol for when things don't go as planned?
I haven't read much about this case so I'm not sure of this has been addressed. But I remember the news articles the last time this new drug cocktail was used and people were horrified because the criminal was gasping for air before he died.
Just because a person is moving or gasping for air doesn't mean they're suffering or have a conscious knowledge of what is going on. I've seen people do all sorts of weird things going under or coming out of anesthesia that might make you think there is a problem but there isn't and they don't remember what happened.
I don't necessarily agree with the death penalty because of the skewed statistics, but I don't necessarily think this case or others show that people are suffering.
Post by irishbride2 on Apr 30, 2014 17:08:27 GMT -5
I will add this: I would let people choose. If the argument REALLY is that death is more humane than life in prison, then I am fine with letting people chose death penalty, or even letting them kill themselves. I'm not ok with the the government executing its citizens, but if the person elects that, then might as well save us the money I suppose.
Can someone who is anti DP based mostly on the state of our prison system please describe for me, the ideal prison environment that would be a suitable place for the worst of the worst offenders (child murders etc) to spend their lives?
Because I can't for the life of me think of what these people "deserve" in terms of improving on their current life in prison situations.
Can someone who is anti DP based mostly on the state of our prison system please describe for me, the ideal prison environment that would be a suitable place for the worst of the worst offenders (child murders etc) to spend their lives?
Because I can't for the life of me think of what these people "deserve" in terms of improving on their current life in prison situations.
Wait what? people are anti death penalty because they think the prison system isn't nice enough? That doesn't make sense. I'm confused.
Can someone who is anti DP based mostly on the state of our prison system please describe for me, the ideal prison environment that would be a suitable place for the worst of the worst offenders (child murders etc) to spend their lives?
Because I can't for the life of me think of what these people "deserve" in terms of improving on their current life in prison situations.
Also, it was the fact that the IV line that failed that caused this, not the drugs. So I don't know what the "but they're untested!" argument has to do with any of this.
Yeah I've been thinking the same thing. I wanted to read an article about this from the medical perspective because has this never happened before? Is there not a protocol for when things don't go as planned?
There was an issue with Gacy's, but I don't believe it resulted in his struggling or anything. From Wiki:
"Before the execution began, the chemicals used to perform the execution unexpectedly solidified, clogging the IV tube administering the chemicals into Gacy's arm and complicating the execution procedure. Blinds covering the window through which witnesses observed the execution were drawn, and the execution team replaced the clogged tube to complete the procedure. "
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Um, I don't support letting Charles Manson out of jail.
I also don't support the death penalty.
And I can't believe I'm having to defend the morality of not empowering the state to kill its citizens.
And yet, while serving a justifiable death penalty he has been up for parole 12 times. He had the opportunity to be released back into society 12 times.
The problem is, as I stated above, that your moral position is on shaky ground. There is no moral high road in this discussion. Psychologically torturing someone for 30-60 years by putting them in a prison system that is irreparably broken isn't the best solution here, either. Plus, dangling the hope of being released every few years is a complete mind fuck in and of itself.
So really, the choices here are physical torture, or mental torture. The argument isn't as black and white as you want to make it.
Who cares? I mean, I don't get the argument that mental torture is cruel for a murderer? I am anti-death penalty but this argument you are posting is odd. I don't care that CM may get out (he won't) and don't even believe he believes it. I think if he were to get approved for parole, he would be very much
Can someone who is anti DP based mostly on the state of our prison system please describe for me, the ideal prison environment that would be a suitable place for the worst of the worst offenders (child murders etc) to spend their lives?
Because I can't for the life of me think of what these people "deserve" in terms of improving on their current life in prison situations.
Are you saying we have the DP just to create more space in jails? This is a serious question, btw- I'm not clear on why certain states are more DP happy than others.