If the system works, someone who rapes and murders a baby is never, ever going to see the light of day again. Which in essence creates the same solution that killing that person does.
No, no it isn't. Certain people take perverse pleasure in reliving their crimes for the rest of their lives. Allowing them to sit around watching CNN, shiving their fellow inmates, and generally being in a state of jobless drudgery while being fed and clothed and given access to ice cream and cable television is not the same solution as the death penalty, especially for people who get it up for rape and murder.
ETA: Oh and let's not forget the massive amount of drugs that move through our prison system or how the prison system itself enables crime by getting people involved in vast gang networks that control drug networks and enable other forms of violent crime both inside prison and outside.
So let's not pretend these guys are just sitting in a cell 23/7 regretting their crime with an hour of calisthenics to break up the monotony.
See, I think they should be in a cell (dark), for 23 hours a day. I think the monotony can be its own torture. But, I am anti-DP, but not due to it being cruel and unusual.
No, no it isn't. Certain people take perverse pleasure in reliving their crimes for the rest of their lives. Allowing them to sit around watching CNN, shiving their fellow inmates, and generally being in a state of jobless drudgery while being fed and clothed and given access to ice cream and cable television is not the same solution as the death penalty, especially for people who get it up for rape and murder.
ETA: Oh and let's not forget the massive amount of drugs that move through our prison system or how the prison system itself enables crime by getting people involved in vast gang networks that control drug networks and enable other forms of violent crime both inside prison and outside.
So let's not pretend these guys are just sitting in a cell 23/7 regretting their crime with an hour of calisthenics to break up the monotony.
See, I think they should be in a cell (dark), for 23 hours a day. I think the monotony can be its own torture. But, I am anti-DP, but not due to it being cruel and unusual.
Why are you anti dp if not for morality? How is torturing some ok, but death is not?
See, I think they should be in a cell (dark), for 23 hours a day. I think the monotony can be its own torture. But, I am anti-DP, but not due to it being cruel and unusual.
Why are you anti dp if not for morality? How is torturing some ok, but death is not?
I cannot speak for Tef but I know many are against the dp because it cannot be reversed. Of course you can not un-torture someone, either. But at least if they are found to be innocent you can release them but you cannot bring them back to life.
See, I think they should be in a cell (dark), for 23 hours a day. I think the monotony can be its own torture. But, I am anti-DP, but not due to it being cruel and unusual.
Why are you anti dp if not for morality? How is torturing some ok, but death is not?
I don't think it is torture. I think it is punishment. Most that commit truly horrific crimes never get out, even if parole becomes an option, like Manson or Son of Sam. That is 1. The morality part is not the killing them, per se, but the worry of killing someone innocent of a crime. Just 1 is too many.
I was reading (I think it was pixy?) where some of you said that you would be ok with abolishing the dp if we fixed the state of our prison system. I'm just curious what changes would make you ok with the absolute worst criminals spending life in prison over receiving death.
I was reading (I think it was pixy?) where some of you said that you would be ok with abolishing the dp if we fixed the state of our prison system. I'm just curious what changes would make you ok with the absolute worst criminals spending life in prison over receiving death.
Usually the biggest argument (which I understand and agree with) is insuring that those who would generally get the DP would not have a chance of parole if life sentences became the harshest punishment available.
I'm totally, completely, way behind on this but wanted to pass on something I read earlier in (gasp) the comments of another article. Basically, on the heels of an article explaining in excruciating detail the crimes these two men committed, a reader wrote that, as a fairly liberal person, he'd be fine with the DP under three conditions:
#1 A higher standard of guilt if we want to apply the death penalty. "We need something stronger than "beyond a reasonable doubt" when it comes to the Death Penalty."
#2 Better representation than public defenders who are way overstretched, and
#3 "Stop this baloney about lethal injections. Put them against the wall and shoot them. I'm tired of society trying to pretend that killing someone is not an act of violence. Killing someone is the ultimate act of violence--we shouldn't allow anyone to pretend that it's not."
I have a hard time getting behind the DP given the basic tenet I tell my 4 year old "don't sink to their level", but if we are going to exact revenge, just call a spade a damn spade.
Just to put this point to rest: These drugs were not "untested." The sedative in question has been used in several executions in several other states for the last two years.
I have no idea of the validity of it, but on MSNBC one of the journalists that witnessed the execution just said "they used a completely untried dose of Midazolam." They made no comment on the other two drugs beyond saying all three were administered. I'm hearing that as the general combo of drugs may have been used before, but they're still messing around with dosages and that maybe falls into not fully tested territory.
I was reading (I think it was pixy?) where some of you said that you would be ok with abolishing the dp if we fixed the state of our prison system. I'm just curious what changes would make you ok with the absolute worst criminals spending life in prison over receiving death.
Usually the biggest argument (which I understand and agree with) is insuring that those who would generally get the DP would not have a chance of parole if life sentences became the harshest punishment available.
Yes.
But mostly I'd want a complete overhaul of the prison system where we focus truly on rehabilitation and not just punishment. If we're going to incarcerate people, do it right. Not this farce of a system that cycles offenders through endlessly.
Seriously. I'm WTFing that the "moral ground" is either death penalty is A-OK or you're cool with mental torture and also letting Charles Manson out of prison.
No, you completely missed my point. There is NO moral ground here. None.
No, if she's only ever on ML then she knows the legend of SBP. The ones they tell around campfires. Not the full on, in your face, good gawd that was a lot of information and did she just cut my legs out from under me? SPB.
what? it's a bitchy comment. i said as much, pixy explained it and i recinded. i only crossed it out because of your comment about the edit to someone else. i didn't want to be accused of rewriting anything.
I thought you crossed it out because you actually never stopped thinking I was a bitch.
Either way, go slow with the trigger there, cowboy. There are a lot of people in this thread flipping their shit and I was pretty tame, even in snarking back at someone who had snarked first and then snarked off-board, as well.
No, if she's only ever on ML then she knows the legend of SBP. The ones they tell around campfires. Not the full on, in your face, good gawd that was a lot of information and did she just cut my legs out from under me? SPB.
AKA, the "I'm going to talk to you like you're a 5 year old because I cannot POSSIBLY BE WRONG" lectures that she gets to somewhere around page 8. And I'll qualify that by saying that unless she was actually there she can't actually know what happened. Especially considering the doctors on hand don't actually know what happened either since there were 2 lines going into the guy. I doubt the blew 2 lines at once.
Everyone on here is guessing at this point. It's what we do best. But please let's not pretend that anyone is Right.
It's been interesting watching how the two boards engaged in the same argument.
Although people are being told on BOTH BOARDS that it was the actual administration and not the drugs themselves that were the problem in this execution and they are STILL chanting "But they're untested!!!!" Which might be a legitimate argument in its own right, but has nothing to do with this case right here.
Also all the "It's unconstitutional" stuff is making me crazy. What happened was negligent. For sure. No doubt. For that negligence to rise to the standard of an 8th amendment violation, it must satisfy the "deliberate indifference" standard set forth in 42 USC Section 1983. Alternatively, it must be "calculated" to cause suffering. Or at least that's what I recall from BarBri. And I don't think anyone (even though who think what happened is evidence the DP should be abolished) think that what happened was intentional.
To be fair, on this board Habs was the first one to bring up the untested drugs (on page 1) as evidence of how the state has failed its responsibility, but not as a reason to oppose the DP. So I think that threw the idea of the untested drugs into the discussion
I lost track of this thread sometime after Charles Manson though.
Who administers the lethal injection? Nurse, doctor?
Seriously. I'm WTFing that the "moral ground" is either death penalty is A-OK or you're cool with mental torture and also letting Charles Manson out of prison.
No, you completely missed my point. There is NO moral ground here. None.
I think this is where most differ from your opinion. The DP doesn't have any moral standing, I agree, but incarceration can, imo. It isn't black and white....some say the punishment is justifiable based on the horrors of the act. Now, if you are speaking to gen pop in most prisons that are mostly minorities and a result of the horror that is the war on drugs? Then, yes, there should be rehabilitation and, really, a revamp of how we punish. But, when it comes to the DP, it is barbaric, imo, and woefully incompetent in terms of getting the 'bad' guy in a reliable manner.
#1 A higher standard of guilt if we want to apply the death penalty. "We need something stronger than "beyond a reasonable doubt" when it comes to the Death Penalty."
#2 Better representation than public defenders who are way overstretched, and
#3 "Stop this baloney about lethal injections. Put them against the wall and shoot them. I'm tired of society trying to pretend that killing someone is not an act of violence. Killing someone is the ultimate act of violence--we shouldn't allow anyone to pretend that it's not."
1. Which would be what?
2. Agree
3. It'd be an interesting board discussion if they did go back to public executions, and the firing squad. I don't think anyone is pretending that death is an easy way to deal with criminals. I do think that people are too willing to let criminals disappear into the justice system, because what they don't see they forget about. Until said criminal commits another crime and the gnashing of teeth starts, "Why did they let him go? He killed and molested blah blah blah! He should never have seen the light of day again!" We have articles like this come up all the time. They are let go because that is our justice system.
3. It'd be an interesting board discussion if they did go back to public executions, and the firing squad. I don't think anyone is pretending that death is an easy way to deal with criminals. I do think that people are too willing to let criminals disappear into the justice system, because what they don't see they forget about. Until said criminal commits another crime and the gnashing of teeth starts, "Why did they let him go? He killed and molested blah blah blah! He should never have seen the light of day again!" We have articles like this come up all the time. They are let go because that is our justice system.
No, you completely missed my point. There is NO moral ground here. None.
I think this is where most differ from your opinion. The DP doesn't have any moral standing, I agree, but incarceration can, imo. It isn't black and white....some say the punishment is justifiable based on the horrors of the act. Now, if you are speaking to gen pop in most prisons that are mostly minorities and a result of the horror that is the war on drugs? Then, yes, there should be rehabilitation and, really, a revamp of how we punish. But, when it comes to the DP, it is barbaric, imo, and woefully incompetent in terms of getting the 'bad' guy in a reliable manner.
LOL! I said most of this several pages ago. The issue isn't black and white, which is why there is no moral high ground in this. Our morality on this particular instance is so skewed that if someone says they're for DP, then automatically they're a bad person. Yet if someone says they're for DP for those that are completely un-rehabable and thinks that lifetime incarceration is torture, people have no idea what the fuck to think. We're so conditioned to view this as a black and white issue that we make it one, no matter what we personally believe.
I think this is where most differ from your opinion. The DP doesn't have any moral standing, I agree, but incarceration can, imo. It isn't black and white....some say the punishment is justifiable based on the horrors of the act. Now, if you are speaking to gen pop in most prisons that are mostly minorities and a result of the horror that is the war on drugs? Then, yes, there should be rehabilitation and, really, a revamp of how we punish. But, when it comes to the DP, it is barbaric, imo, and woefully incompetent in terms of getting the 'bad' guy in a reliable manner.
LOL! I said most of this several pages ago. The issue isn't black and white, which is why there is no moral high ground in this. Our morality on this particular instance is so skewed that if someone says they're for DP, then automatically they're a bad person. Yet if someone says they're for DP for those that are completely un-rehabable and thinks that lifetime incarceration is torture, people have no idea what the fuck to think. We're so conditioned to view this as a black and white issue that we make it one, no matter what we personally believe.
Then what the hell are you talking about when you bring up Manson and the small cell? I didn't take anything you posted as what you just said.
3. It'd be an interesting board discussion if they did go back to public executions, and the firing squad. I don't think anyone is pretending that death is an easy way to deal with criminals. I do think that people are too willing to let criminals disappear into the justice system, because what they don't see they forget about. Until said criminal commits another crime and the gnashing of teeth starts, "Why did they let him go? He killed and molested blah blah blah! He should never have seen the light of day again!" We have articles like this come up all the time. They are let go because that is our justice system.
I'm a fan of Life w/no possibility of parole.
Except these sentences can be commuted or changed to time served.
I think this is where most differ from your opinion. The DP doesn't have any moral standing, I agree, but incarceration can, imo. It isn't black and white....some say the punishment is justifiable based on the horrors of the act. Now, if you are speaking to gen pop in most prisons that are mostly minorities and a result of the horror that is the war on drugs? Then, yes, there should be rehabilitation and, really, a revamp of how we punish. But, when it comes to the DP, it is barbaric, imo, and woefully incompetent in terms of getting the 'bad' guy in a reliable manner.
LOL! I said most of this several pages ago. The issue isn't black and white, which is why there is no moral high ground in this. Our morality on this particular instance is so skewed that if someone says they're for DP, then automatically they're a bad person. Yet if someone says they're for DP for those that are completely un-rehabable and thinks that lifetime incarceration is torture, people have no idea what the fuck to think. We're so conditioned to view this as a black and white issue that we make it one, no matter what we personally believe.
Disclaimer: I do not think those who are pro-DP are bad people
But I do think its a bit different since it is rare for people to beg the state to kill them but there are many who beg the state to NOT kill them. KWIM? But I do think this problem is solved by giving those sentences to live the option to kill themselves or have someone kill them. Money saved. Torture averted.
Except these sentences can be commuted or changed to time served.
right but that can be changed. We can reform our penal system. Thats the point. I don't think we have to kill people because there are issues with the penal system. It would make more sense (IMO) to reform the penal system.
LOL! I said most of this several pages ago. The issue isn't black and white, which is why there is no moral high ground in this. Our morality on this particular instance is so skewed that if someone says they're for DP, then automatically they're a bad person. Yet if someone says they're for DP for those that are completely un-rehabable and thinks that lifetime incarceration is torture, people have no idea what the fuck to think. We're so conditioned to view this as a black and white issue that we make it one, no matter what we personally believe.
Then what the hell are you talking about when you bring up Manson and the small cell? I didn't take anything you posted as what you just said.
Because you were stuck that I used Manson as an example? He was the first person I thought of that is 100% incapable of being rehabbed. The world would be a better place without him.
I didn't realize people would get so stuck on the one example I used, but this is CEP where sometimes people skim and don't get the full conversation.
Except these sentences can be commuted or changed to time served.
right but that can be changed. We can reform our penal system. Thats the point. I don't think we have to kill people because there are issues with the penal system. It would make more sense (IMO) to reform the penal system.
Agreed. We're the same on this point. Our prison system is fucked.