I haven't dated in a long time (been with H for 14 years now), but back in the day it seemed like people had more success with "Hi, I'm Joe. I've seen you running this trail a lot lately; are you training for x race?" rather than "You look great in those running shorts!"
Maybe I am old and out of the loop, though.
You look great in those running shorts is skeevy.
I mean seriously, I'm not going to have this conversation if we aren't going to come to it realistically. I'm not talking about creepy ass comments that are leveled directly at one's sexuality.
I'm not actually trying to enrage you. Personally, if a stranger wanted to get to know me for some reason (e.g., per your dating question), I would prefer him or her to comment on what I am doing (the training for the race in my example) than anything about my appearance. This is not to say I would slap anyone who said "I like your hairstyle" while in line at the grocery store. But maybe (apparently) other people feel differently. That's fine.
A few months ago, I realized that my internal dialogue is actually pretty fucking shitty. So I decided I would make a conscious effort when I look at someone to find something worthy of compliment in my own head. Sometimes I say it out loud.
Yes! This is why I do it! I didn't like how often my mind navigated to the negative, so I made a conscious effort to focus on the positive. At the risk of being Pollyanna, it really does make me a happier person, definitely in the moment, and probably a little bit more overall.
I had started to be concerned about the example I was setting for my kids in terms of their opinions on women, what women should wear and when, and their right to make such commentary. I was actually pretty ashamed of myself once I realized what I was doing.
I think - and I hope I explain this right - is that to the guys she recorded there is no different between "Your shoes are nice" and "Hey - hey, are they have a modeling contest going on? I mean your legs and everything." It's the fact that while she did call him out on his cheesy pick up line that he got defensive because she didn't want his compliment. He can give it, but he shouldn't get hurt if she doesn't appreciate it. To me that is kind of the difference.
But he didn't actually mention her legs until after she got combative with him. I'm not saying what he said after that was acceptable because it wasn't. I'm saying that his initial comment wasn't worthy of her reaction. If she didn't appreciate it, she didn't have to acknowledge it. But her lack of appreciation is not the bulk of what determines appropriateness.
If a dude says to me, "Wow, you look beautiful today," I am going to stop and talk to him. I am single. Married folks can KOKO.
No, Sou. He's supposed to comment on what you are actually doing even if it's just sipping on a latte. That's supposed to be what strikes him enough to converse with you.
To be clear, I don't think it's the job of women to school men on how they should interact with the world. But I do think that someone has to change the culture and we aren't going to succeed at that, as women or as a general population if we go to such extremes and label everything as inappropriate or harassment or worse, encourage men to lie before we deign to speak to them.
I think - and I hope I explain this right - is that to the guys she recorded there is no different between "Your shoes are nice" and "Hey - hey, are they have a modeling contest going on? I mean your legs and everything." It's the fact that while she did call him out on his cheesy pick up line that he got defensive because she didn't want his compliment. He can give it, but he shouldn't get hurt if she doesn't appreciate it. To me that is kind of the difference.
But he didn't actually mention her legs until after she got combative with him. I'm not saying what he said after that was acceptable because it wasn't. I'm saying that his initial comment wasn't worthy of her reaction. If she didn't appreciate it, she didn't have to acknowledge it. But her lack of appreciation is not the bulk of what determines appropriateness.
Oh, I agree. She should have just kept walking and ignored him, instead of arguing with him.
Also, honestly, I don't want to talk about a location I will be visiting on a prescribed date with a guy I just met at the gym. That's actually kind of creepy. I mean if he shows up there, I'm gonna be skeeved out.
But honestly, it's all a matter of perspective. A benign comment on my appearance is less threatening TO ME than someone trying to engage me in conversation without any provocation. If you comment that I'm pretty, I can say thank you and keep on walking rather easily. If you ask me about an upcoming race, it's a lot more difficult to disengage from that conversation without being a rude asshole.
You know its interesting. H and I have a good friend who is dealing with it. He and H have lunch almost daily. Almost every single day someone tells this guy he should be a model. Is it a compliment? Sure. But it gets old really fast. I wouldn't call it harassment, although sometimes it does devolve into that. It depends on how it is said, IMO. I was out with them in a situation where it got really uncomfortable because the female waitress would not let it go.Â
But really, I think people should just refrain from commenting on the looks of others unless you know the person and you know it will be a compliment. Like, I would say to a friend "I love your new hair cut! It looks great." But its weird to stop a random stranger and say "Wow! I love your hair!" is it harassment? Generally not (at least I don't think) but its strange at least to me.Â
And I'm always randomly telling people I like their top or hair or purse or whatever. Interesting.
I have a coworker who on one of my worst "I'm fat and ugly and my husband doesn't want me" days post-separation said to me randomly, "you look gorgeous today [his nickname for me]" and I almost cried. It was the right thing at the right time. So I wish we would stop telling dudes that anytime they say anything unsolicited to us about our appearance that they are "harassing." Your ew might be my awwww.
Catcalls are different.
That was sweet.
To me a stranger stopping me to talk about my body is weird. A friend or colleague doing it when I need cheering up would be appreciated.
The only thing I have trouble with is the frequency that she is claiming. People here simply do not talk to strangers in my experience. At least not as often as she claims. The local paper even talked about this awhile back about how hard it is to be a MN transplant because native Minnesotans tend to stick together and outsiders have a hard time breaking those barriers. Strangers barely acknowledge one another here. Three years working downtown and I rarely saw anyone get acknowledged, let alone complimented.
That being said, I want to do right by my fellow woman and give her the benefit of the doubt.
I grew up in Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan. I am not drop dead gorgeous by any stretch of the imagination and I can honestly tell you that in my teens through 35 there was rarely a day that I left the house that someone didn't have something to say. Men sit out in lower manhattan oggling and commenting on every woman that passes. Spring was the worst - you go out, feeling good and they think it's freaking open season. And construction workers were more polite that the dicks in suits. In Brooklyn there was horn honking, they'd chirp their alarms yell from cars. I used to ride my bike on a bike path that's close to the highway and when there's bad traffic some people just yell at every woman that goes by. I don't question the frequency at all. A friend of mine was getting on the subway one day and someone leaned in and made that disgusting kissing noise and she punched him in the face. I only wish I was there to see it.
I love the sayings on the cards but I wouldn't hand them out myself.
Post by irishbride2 on Jul 22, 2014 10:35:46 GMT -5
To clarify in not saying it's automatically harassment. At all. I just tend to steer clear of any physical appearance comments to those I don't know because you have no clue their background or how they will take it.
The only thing I have trouble with is the frequency that she is claiming. People here simply do not talk to strangers in my experience. At least not as often as she claims. The local paper even talked about this awhile back about how hard it is to be a MN transplant because native Minnesotans tend to stick together and outsiders have a hard time breaking those barriers. Strangers barely acknowledge one another here. Three years working downtown and I rarely saw anyone get acknowledged, let alone complimented.
That being said, I want to do right by my fellow woman and give her the benefit of the doubt.
I grew up in Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan. I am not drop dead gorgeous by any stretch of the imagination and I can honestly tell you that in my teens through 35 there was rarely a day that I left the house that someone didn't have something to say. Men sit out in lower manhattan oggling and commenting on every woman that passes. Spring was the worst - you go out, feeling good and they think it's freaking open season. And construction workers were more polite that the dicks in suits. In Brooklyn there was horn honking, they'd chirp their alarms yell from cars. I used to ride my bike on a bike path that's close to the highway and when there's bad traffic some people just yell at every woman that goes by. I don't question the frequency at all. A friend of mine was getting on the subway one day and someone leaned in and made that disgusting kissing noise and she punched him in the face. I only wish I was there to see it.
I love the sayings on the cards but I wouldn't hand them out myself.
I grew up in Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan. I am not drop dead gorgeous by any stretch of the imagination and I can honestly tell you that in my teens through 35 there was rarely a day that I left the house that someone didn't have something to say. Men sit out in lower manhattan oggling and commenting on every woman that passes. Spring was the worst - you go out, feeling good and they think it's freaking open season. And construction workers were more polite that the dicks in suits. In Brooklyn there was horn honking, they'd chirp their alarms yell from cars. I used to ride my bike on a bike path that's close to the highway and when there's bad traffic some people just yell at every woman that goes by. I don't question the frequency at all. A friend of mine was getting on the subway one day and someone leaned in and made that disgusting kissing noise and she punched him in the face. I only wish I was there to see it.
I love the sayings on the cards but I wouldn't hand them out myself.
Ewwwwwwwwwww!
And just to clarify from my earlier comments, if you have to tell it from across the room, the street, or out of a car window then you could be saying you like my hair color and it's risen to the level of harassment.
The only thing I have trouble with is the frequency that she is claiming. People here simply do not talk to strangers in my experience. At least not as often as she claims. The local paper even talked about this awhile back about how hard it is to be a MN transplant because native Minnesotans tend to stick together and outsiders have a hard time breaking those barriers. Strangers barely acknowledge one another here. Three years working downtown and I rarely saw anyone get acknowledged, let alone complimented.
That being said, I want to do right by my fellow woman and give her the benefit of the doubt.
I grew up in Brooklyn and worked in Manhattan. I am not drop dead gorgeous by any stretch of the imagination and I can honestly tell you that in my teens through 35 there was rarely a day that I left the house that someone didn't have something to say. Men sit out in lower manhattan oggling and commenting on every woman that passes. Spring was the worst - you go out, feeling good and they think it's freaking open season. And construction workers were more polite that the dicks in suits. In Brooklyn there was horn honking, they'd chirp their alarms yell from cars. I used to ride my bike on a bike path that's close to the highway and when there's bad traffic some people just yell at every woman that goes by. I don't question the frequency at all. A friend of mine was getting on the subway one day and someone leaned in and made that disgusting kissing noise and she punched him in the face. I only wish I was there to see it.
I love the sayings on the cards but I wouldn't hand them out myself.
I don't doubt your experience or your friend's. But I'm talking about a completely different area. And good for your friend BTW. I would have loved to see that too.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Jul 22, 2014 10:48:28 GMT -5
I think I get where she's coming from. Downtown Minneapolis can be really bad for cat calls. Like uncomfortably bad.
ETA: just saw @josyposy 's comment. I think that's true depending on which area of downtown you're in. I used to work in the North Loop area and it was bad pretty much any time of day. But to get anywhere, I had to walk past at least 4 strip clubs. So that might be coloring my comment.
Is it harassment if someone compliments you and you don't know this person? I get annoyed by catcalls just like everyone else, but if someone I don't know says something nice, I'm not slapping them with a card and acting like I'm being harassed. I think that's a little bit over the top.
At the very least, it is a bit uncomfortable to be walking down the street and to have a stranger who is just walking by say "You're beautiful" (even more uncomfortable when they call you sexy). Perhaps those are compliments, but they're weird.
But no, I wouldn't be slapping cards at them. Nor would I be presumptuous enough to carry cards with me at all times just in case.
I had a FB discussion about this the other day. I have a male coworker who is losing weight and I've noticed it's something he's been working on (eating healthier, working out more) and I asked FB if men liked to be complimented and if it was okay for me to say something. 93% of people said I shouldn't say anything, which I thought was so weird!!!
I think I get where she's coming from. Downtown Minneapolis can be really bad for cat calls. Like uncomfortably bad.
ETA: just saw @josyposy 's comment. I think that's true depending on which area of downtown you're in. I used to work in the North Loop area and it was bad pretty much any time of day. But to get anywhere, I had to walk past at least 4 strip clubs. So that might be coloring my comment.
Truth. Last summer I was downtown with a group of people (including my then-bf) and I had three dudes catcall me, and one said something like "your man doesn't have what you need, gorgeous. I have a seven-inch tongue and a ten-inch dick"
We just kept walking but holy shit. I wasn't even alone - we were a group of almost ten people.
I think I get where she's coming from. Downtown Minneapolis can be really bad for cat calls. Like uncomfortably bad.
ETA: just saw @josyposy 's comment. I think that's true depending on which area of downtown you're in. I used to work in the North Loop area and it was bad pretty much any time of day. But to get anywhere, I had to walk past at least 4 strip clubs. So that might be coloring my comment.
Truth. Last summer I was downtown with a group of people (including my then-bf) and I had three dudes catcall me, and one said something like "your man doesn't have what you need, gorgeous. I have a seven-inch tongue and a ten-inch dick"
We just kept walking but holy shit. I wasn't even alone - we were a group of almost ten people.
WHOA!
My friend and I were going to the grocery store to get more BBQ shit and a guy who worked at Kroger overheard our conversation and told her he liked a woman with a dirty mouth. I mean seriously? SERIOUSLY!!
I think I get where she's coming from. Downtown Minneapolis can be really bad for cat calls. Like uncomfortably bad.
ETA: just saw @josyposy 's comment. I think that's true depending on which area of downtown you're in. I used to work in the North Loop area and it was bad pretty much any time of day. But to get anywhere, I had to walk past at least 4 strip clubs. So that might be coloring my comment.
I could see that for that area. Truthfully I must be very fortunate in my experience. I worked in the heart of downtown and walked everywhere as part of my job and just never saw this stuff. But again I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to this girl because my experience does not equal all women's experiences here. I certainly don't want to generalize too much.
I think I get where she's coming from. Downtown Minneapolis can be really bad for cat calls. Like uncomfortably bad.
ETA: just saw @josyposy 's comment. I think that's true depending on which area of downtown you're in. I used to work in the North Loop area and it was bad pretty much any time of day. But to get anywhere, I had to walk past at least 4 strip clubs. So that might be coloring my comment.
Truth. Last summer I was downtown with a group of people (including my then-bf) and I had three dudes catcall me, and one said something like "your man doesn't have what you need, gorgeous. I have a seven-inch tongue and a ten-inch dick"
We just kept walking but holy shit. I wasn't even alone - we were a group of almost ten people.
I have similar experiences. People don't make eye contact with me in Downtown West. I am average looking, and being in Downtown East can be a draining ordeal. I learned very quickly not to wear makeup to work because the attention was ridiculous.
Post by meshaliuknits on Jul 22, 2014 11:38:09 GMT -5
We're sharing stories of assholes now, right?
A while back I was in CVS and there was a teenaged girl in line behind me. Some grown ass dude, fifties I'd guess, walked by us and said hella loud to "she's gonna be a fine ass mutherfucker when she grows up." The girl turned bright red. I felt bad for her. The dude in front of me said "that was a rude thing to say. I'd be mad if someone said that to my daughter."
Myself, I've had dudes try to follow me to my place of work or residence before. So I trust no one, I don't wanna talk to anyone* and carry headphones on my person to try to make this point as clear as possible. Past experience has made me wary of even passing compliments from men.
I had a FB discussion about this the other day. I have a male coworker who is losing weight and I've noticed it's something he's been working on (eating healthier, working out more) and I asked FB if men liked to be complimented and if it was okay for me to say something. 93% of people said I shouldn't say anything, which I thought was so weird!!!
It all depends on the person. Many would be flattered, but some would be offended if you mentioned their weight, even in a positive way. It points out that you thought they were fat before. (i'm not saying I would take it that way, but some do).
Like I said, I avoid comments about people's bodies unless I know how they will take it. Not worth the risk (at least for me)
I have been unpleasantly surprised by the number of catcalls I get up here. Particularly on my way to work at the crack of dawn. It's not bad in my neighborhood, but it's really bad around the hospital. It's mortifying when I'm walking to lunch with colleagues. I'm also surprised about being cat called while wearing a white coat. They cover everything.
I did laugh when one guy yelled out "get it white girl"
Get it, white girl would have had me laid out for the rest of the day.
ZOMG. Women complimenting other women is usually not harassment. Men complimenting men... I don't know if that happens, but probably not harassment. Complimenting a friend of either sex: not harassment.
Random man I've never met and will never see again who yells, "hey beautiful, why don't you smile? I bet you have a great smile!" as I walk by is presupposing that I give a shit about his approval of my clothing, my body's physical appearance, or what I am doing with my own damn face. He is assuming this because he is a man and I am a woman, and men are in control. Now, this is most likely not a conscious decision on the part of the cat caller. I'm not assuming they've had lengthy discussions about gender discrimination, male privilege, or patriarchy. But hey, it exists all the same.
Frankly, it's the same kind of control that is sought by rapists. Are cat callers rapists? Most likely not, but it's part of rape culture, IMO. It's men exercising control over women because they are men and women are women, and that's all.
I think I've mentioned before that I was so looking forward to reading my book at the beach one day, and was driven off because of harassment by some transient dude. I mean, really, did he think I was just going to suck him off or something, right there, because he was a man? Because he didn't have much else to offer me, unless you include the fact that he had 4 teeth and had probably bathed in the past 2 weeks. I left after 30 minutes or so, upset that my plans for the day had been ruined because he wouldn't leave me alone. That was 10 years ago and I still remember it. I still remember how unfair it seemed that I couldn't enjoy a public place because I was being harassed due to my gender.
I once happened upon a man at a book fair so stunning that I stopped and stared and then told him he was gorgeous and went about my business. Was that wrong?
I once happened upon a man at a book fair so stunning that I stopped and stared and then told him he was gorgeous and went about my business. Was that wrong?
Maybe you made his day. Maybe you made him very uncomfortable. I don't know.
I admit I never really thought about it from the guy side until it started happening to my friend.
I once happened upon a man at a book fair so stunning that I stopped and stared and then told him he was gorgeous and went about my business. Was that wrong?
I once happened upon a man at a book fair so stunning that I stopped and stared and then told him he was gorgeous and went about my business. Was that wrong?
What I'm getting out of this thread is that diffferent people would take it differently, so unless he happens to show up here we'll probably never know.