Someone just posted the wikipedia link in which Nestle is accused of campaigning against breast feeding so hard that the deaths of possibly thousands of children in developing nations are on their hands.
Plus the water bottling plant. I forgot about that. Basically, they are taking CA's water!
CA takes NV'd water, too. Also, people, maybe don't overcrowd a desert state because you like the weather.
I'm sorry, but if you're living there, you're contributing to the problem, so I don't understand getting all mad at Nestle. They are going to where the customers are.
I take it you don't eat anything grown in CA then. Sweet, more almonds for me!
No one responds well when they are brow beaten into submission. "Buy this (or read that) because you should because I say you should" isn't going to win many converts. And that's where all these CEP convos go, whether it's about books, cars, clothes, or fast food. Tell me why doing x or not doing x is important to you. And I will make a decision based on my own personal circumstances if that is also important to me.
The frustration comes when we've been having the same conversation for 2 years and still people are all breezy about it, "But they have good lemonade!" Really? That's your (general) whole entire rebuttal? Or a picture?
To me it's a sign that the tactic needs to change.
The frustration comes when we've been having the same conversation for 2 years and still people are all breezy about it, "But they have good lemonade!" Really? That's your (general) whole entire rebuttal? Or a picture?
To me it's a sign that the tactic needs to change.
To me it's a sign that people just don't fucking care and should just stay out of the discussion.
Would it be nice if people changed their (ridiculous) beliefs? Yes. But I will settle for shaming them to make changes based on business decisions because regardless of what I think of particular personal beliefs, they are entitled to them.
But honestly, my biggest conundrum with CFA is that there are many things that I would like to support that they do - my understanding from people who have worked there is that they treat their employees well, the pay is good, as are the benefits and all the people I know who have worked there enjoyed it. It is a very pleasant atmosphere compared to pretty much every other traditional fast food restaurant. The toys are gender neutral and the fruit cup is an actual, good fruit cup. I want to support those things in businesses too. I want other businesses to see that success and adopt those practices because those things are also important to me when it comes to what I support and where I spend my money.
So when it comes down to it, if CFA has stopped donating to problematic charities, I'm okay with that being a business decision on their part. The personal beliefs of the guy in charge don't matter to me because if I had to guess the personal beliefs of people in charge of most places that I spend my money don't necessarily align with my beliefs and I don't expect them to. Other people's lines might differ and that's fine. But acting like CFA is the one, lone devil - even after they've moved to make changes - and shaming people for being okay with that does not really make sense to me. And while I can respect people's rights and beliefs to continue to personally boycott, I'm not sure what would ever be enough in cfa's case. Which is fine, and your choice, but acting like others are personally ignoring/insulting you by coming to a different decision is what I don't get.
No one responds well when they are brow beaten into submission. "Buy this (or read that) because you should because I say you should" isn't going to win many converts. And that's where all these CEP convos go, whether it's about books, cars, clothes, or fast food. Tell me why doing x or not doing x is important to you. And I will make a decision based on my own personal circumstances if that is also important to me.
The frustration comes when we've been having the same conversation for 2 years and still people are all breezy about it, "But they have good lemonade!" Really? That's your (general) whole entire rebuttal? Or a picture?
What else is anyone supposed to say, though? What reason/defense makes it "o.k." to say that I still go to CFA?
Does telling you that the reason I go is that my son has celiac and CFA has the most transparent gluten free options make it any better - or will I get the same response as if I said "But I love their sweet tea!"?
This thread has gotten weirdly personal and people are talking past each other now. Plus, no one has helped me with a polynesian sauce recipe. And I'm not giving up my fur(s).
can i add that if i ever find, in a vintage store, one of the old fox stoles that still has the head, imma snatch that thing up and wear it?
Ditto. I am looking specifically for one like the one I wore on my wedding day (my MIL lent it to me). (A mink cape)
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I have no boss this week and have thus been trying to read the god damn make up thread. But now you all just made me waste time reading this one when I could have been trying to get to page 100 on the other.
KateAggie - It took me a few seconds to realize that photo wasn't of you. But in those few seconds it hurt because in my world CFA is a symbol of people that HATE me and would be okay with my death. It was a physical reaction in me not unlike the photo from Uganda. I know this wasn't your intention but wanted to share so that maybe it would explain why others reacted the way they did.
I agree that everyone has a line. And the truth is that everyone here is owning their line. Some of us just don't like the side of the line people are choosing to stand on. We all have them though.
I do want to point out another layer to this, though. Which is that we actually want owners who act like Cathy did. Who are probably reprehensible people, but who are so profit driven that they can distinguish their corporation from themselves. People/Owners/CEOs who personally don't give a shit about the environment, but who recognize that consumes do, so they reduce their use of plastic and begin using recycled and recylable products, who personally don't care about gender equality, but cave to public pressure to provide lactation rooms and reasonable paid maternity leave, who couldn't care less about gays but cave to social pressure to keep that shit out of their corporate structure and not spend their interviews with Forbes talking about how marriage is between a man and a woman. Ideally, we'd have Owners who implement those principles into their business model BECAUSE they care about them. But the reality is that corporations are not the people who run them. They should not take on the characteristics of the people who run them or the be assigned those characteristics by owners or others. So an owner/operator/CEO who says, "I'm keeping my personal opinions out of my business" is a pretty good deal these days. Better than the CEO of staples who's being all out there about what a hardship it is to provide a woman with a janitor's closet to pump breast milk in.
For some people, I absolutely understand that that is not enough when it comes to specific businesses or specific behavior or specific issues. If I had a Jewish friend who told me she couldn't bring herself to buy a Volkswagon, I sure as shit wouldn't respond by saying, "But they have cute flower vases" and then texting her a cute little picture of a VW Bug. But I do think when a corporation is told, "STOP ACTING LIKE AN ASSHOLE OR I WON'T DEAL WITH YOUR BUSINESS" and they respond by... stoppping?? At the very least, the analysis changes.
honestly this is a good point and I think boils down to how I feel about so much of this corporation crap going on today. CEOs spout their opinions about everything and honestly, I don't care. What are your business practices. If you say you hate gays and then you actively work to block gay marriage with corporate profits, then I have an issue. If you say you love families and women but you actively work to block women's access to health care (hobby lobby), then I have an issue.
I would like it if no one hated or no one was prejudiced and the like. But I can only change so much with my spending and I think I prefer to adjust my spending to actively avoid the companies with business practices I don't agree with, such as Gap.
So because he didn't change his personal beliefs, the guy is just out? People still can hold to their beliefs differently than yours and not be hateful. I don't get hate from this guy. He doesn't believe in it. He isn't continuing to contribute to people being harmed over that belief.
I'm done arguing with you until you can back up your assertions, because everything out there said he made a business decision, not a personal nor company belief change.
tbf, pixy, I think it is odd that you play ignorant to the makeup with their testing and their packaging and all the waste, parabens, etc but are hell bent on this. What do you actually need to believe him? Him calling you?II'm asking honestly.
No one responds well when they are brow beaten into submission. "Buy this (or read that) because you should because I say you should" isn't going to win many converts. And that's where all these CEP convos go, whether it's about books, cars, clothes, or fast food. Tell me why doing x or not doing x is important to you. And I will make a decision based on my own personal circumstances if that is also important to me.
The frustration comes when we've been having the same conversation for 2 years and still people are all breezy about it, "But they have good lemonade!" Really? That's your (general) whole entire rebuttal? Or a picture?
no. People also posted articles of a change in policy.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Girl no! One I just got when I was last home and went to see my Grandma, the sometimes evil, always sassy about the mouth one who is about to turn 93. She pushed it into my hands and told me to take it and hide it from my two cousins. LOL
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I'm done arguing with you until you can back up your assertions, because everything out there said he made a business decision, not a personal nor company belief change.
tbf, pixy, I think it is odd that you play ignorant to the makeup with their testing and their packaging and all the waste, parabens, etc but are hell bent on this. What do you actually need to believe him? Him calling you?II'm asking honestly.
tbf, the make-up thing was tic, and I'm really surprised that people can only pinpoint on that to pick at me with.
L'Oreal brands seem to get a pass on labor rights. They've gone through steps to mitigate involvement of child labor in the mica (ingredient in a lot of makeup) mines in India. Since my main love is Urban Decay, I'm good with this.
Esteé Lauder brands have the same India/mica problem, but have taken steps to mitigate the issue. Their main makeup brands that I use are MAC and Smashbox.
I would imagine that the biggest problems (human rights wise which is what I care about for clothing) for the makeup companies is the mining of mica in India. I'm not finding good resources for this, but I admit I've only done a cursory search.
ETA: And I refuse to buy Kat Von D makeup because she is a stupid whoreface.
Can we talk about palm oil? I try to avoid companies that get palm oil from non-sustainable sources but there is palm oil in everything! And it has a hundred different names, so it isn’t even obvious if palm oil is an ingredient. One of the best companies for this is Nestle but then they suck at other things. I am so torn!
Does anyone else care about palm oil? What products/companies do you avoid?
I got to page 9 and didn't want to watch friends fight, but I think there is an interesting question that got lost in the thread, and that is:
How long should it be until we forgive an organisation for its past deeds? And should we?
Because I understand the reluctance to give Chik any money even if they stopped doing the bad stuff now (I am not saying they have). But it does become a question time and how bad what they did was?
Does anyone here avoid IBM for its involvement in Hitlers treatment of the Jews? Serious question, not snark. Because that was some bullshit right there - along with Coca Cola and various other businesses who bent over backwards directly or indirectly to earn from the Nazis. I don't know what IBM has been up to since...but still. Not good, eh?
And I stopped protesting Starbucks when they bought in that college thing recently. I don't know if I am right to or not, because they have some historically pretty shitty business methods.
Can we talk about palm oil? I try to avoid companies that get palm oil from non-sustainable sources but there is palm oil in everything! And it has a hundred different names, so it isn’t even obvious if palm oil is an ingredient. One of the best companies for this is Nestle but then they suck at other things. I am so torn!
Does anyone else care about palm oil? What products/companies do you avoid?
I just really learned about this last week, when I went to the Audobon Zoo in New Orleans. They had a sign up about palm oil, deforestation and the effect on plants and wild life.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I got to page 9 and didn't want to watch friends fight, but I think there is an interesting question that got lost in the thread, and that is:
How long should it be until we forgive an organisation for its past deeds? And should we?
For me, personally, it's long enough to know that the change actually lasts once the furor dies down. CFA may very well have stopped giving to hate groups. If that's true I am am thrilled no matter what their motivation. I just can't help wonder if they'll start giving again next year, when everyone is busy fixating on something else.
If I had to put an arbitrary number on it I'd say 5 years but I really don't know. I still don't want to give money to the bigoted owner but for me it's a bit less clear than a small business with an asshole owner. There are so many other, decent, people who profit off CFA that I don't know that opinion alone would keep me from shopping there if they make meaningful, long term change to their giving practices.
For now they won't be getting my money but I may be slightly less hard on others who do go there.
Does anyone here avoid IBM for its involvement in Hitlers treatment of the Jews? Serious question, not snark. Because that was some bullshit right there - along with Coca Cola and various other businesses who bent over backwards directly or indirectly to earn from the Nazis. I don't know what IBM has been up to since...but still. Not good, eh?
IBM is one of the largest tech firms in the world, and usually ranked as one of the most respected as well. I don't think many people today even know about their past, much less boycott them for it.
Of course it's almost impossible to avoid IBM since they have created so many things that are basically essential to daily life at this point. It's a lot different than something like a restaurant or clothing store. I mean, if you have a computer, or shop in a store, or have a debit card, or do business with basically any company that is even remotely digital then you're probably using something created by IBM.
Does anyone here avoid IBM for its involvement in Hitlers treatment of the Jews? Serious question, not snark. Because that was some bullshit right there - along with Coca Cola and various other businesses who bent over backwards directly or indirectly to earn from the Nazis. I don't know what IBM has been up to since...but still. Not good, eh?
IBM is one of the largest tech firms in the world, and usually ranked as one of the most respected as well. I don't think many people today even know about their past, much less boycott them for it.
Of course it's almost impossible to avoid IBM since they have created so many things that are basically essential to daily life at this point. It's a lot different than something like a restaurant or clothing store. I mean, if you have a computer, or shop in a store, or have a debit card, or do business with basically any company that is even remotely digital then you're probably using something created by IBM.
Oh, I know. I was just using IBM as an example, not a practical thing to boycott. And anyway, its impossible to boycott, say, athletic clothing and shoe companies that use sweatshops - they all do, pretty much. So instead, its best just to boycott the biggest offender - hence me never buying Nike. I still have to buy running shoes, and I still don't like giving money to, say Adidas, but theres no other way really - unless you decide to live in a forest in a house you made yourself wearing skins and eating what you kill.
PIP that fuckah, because I think I have one! Maybe it's a stole though, I'm unsure.
PDQ, I will DD later. I'm not sure if I have a pic from the front, I'll have to look.
I love that. It's amazing! This is mine - it's not a cape, it's a headless stole. I may add a frog closure to make it a cape though, because the cape is gorgeous!