1. Dash cams should be mandatory 2. Why not mandatory, tamper proof lapel cameras, too? (Or at the very least, mics). 3. The police unions would never let the above happen.
My heart hurts, we live about 10 miles south of the area. I hope the FBI is able to shed more light on the details. But unless video or audio is uncovered somehow, I'm not sure the findings will be satisfactory or conclusive one way or the other.
I don't think #3 is true. I really think the majority of police, especially chiefs of police, want everyone treated appropriately and fairly. LE that I know appreciate dash cams. They not only protect citizens, but police as well.
Listen, I want to make it clear that I am in no way defending police that do these things nor any administration that covers it up. I think police and administrations who let these things happen should be held accountable. In the court system if necessary.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Plus, I seriously doubt most of these guys, even the ones who do this stuff wake up and say to themselves, Imma shoot me a black man today. I think it's yet another example of how systemic and ingrained racism is. From what I've seen, most people genuinely do not realize that they hold racial stereotypes and they certainly don't view themselves as racist.
When people think of racism, they think of white hoods, fiery crosses, and the confederate flag. Until we come to realize that racism is far more than that and that you can be a good person and still be afflicted with racial stereotypes, we aren't going to get anywhere.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
Post by cookiemdough on Aug 11, 2014 19:08:38 GMT -5
I understand what you guys are saying and that you are not excusing the behaviors. But as someone raising a black male, it is hard not to feel like that level of understanding, while absolutely necessary to improve things, seems to be used to justify people getting off rather than actually facilitating change. And I am not referring to the board when I say this, I am talking about how in society we sympathize with the zimmermans because of course he is scared, we sympathize with the police in the vast number of wrongful shootings that have taken place because it is natural for bias to filter into their work. It is hurtful that these things get the benefit of the doubt but the victims do not. Meanwhile I have to keep coming up with a way to talk to my kids about this stuff without making them feel like they are a second class citizen.
@majorwife I'm here, just insanely busy at work right now. I'm disgusted at this whole thing. I feel horrible for the family for the loss of their boy and now that his memory will be tainted by these riots. I'm embarrassed for our city because while, yes, we are usually one of the highest crime rates in the country, it's never been something like this. I just hope the worst is over and the peaceful vigils and protests return.
I'm speaking of the acknowledgements that need to happen to change the culture. We cannot address these inherent biases without studying them. It's not a justification. We aren't saying that black men are more violent. We are saying that there needs to be acknowledgement that people presume they are before they can start dismantling that thought process.
What you're saying doesn't run counter to what the rest of us are saying.
I realize that it's not necessarily feasible to do in every city, but Detroit has had FBI oversight since 2003 (I think they're just now trying to end it). Incidences have decreased here and having the oversight meant much more education and training for officers. While no department wants to be under that sort of magnifying glass, I think at the end of the day, it's obviously been good for DPD. More departments should be doing it. (FTR, the oversight was precipitated by the mayor at the time due to his concern over the number of incidences between law enforcement and citizens.)
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I'm speaking of the acknowledgements that need to happen to change the culture. We cannot address these inherent biases without studying them. It's not a justification. We aren't saying that black men are more violent. We are saying that there needs to be acknowledgement that people presume they are before they can start dismantling that thought process.
What you're saying doesn't run counter to what the rest of us are saying.
Except I don't think the acknowledgement results in dismantling that thought process.
I'm speaking of the acknowledgements that need to happen to change the culture. We cannot address these inherent biases without studying them. It's not a justification. We aren't saying that black men are more violent. We are saying that there needs to be acknowledgement that people presume they are before they can start dismantling that thought process.
What you're saying doesn't run counter to what the rest of us are saying.
Except I don't think the acknowledgement results in dismantling that thought process.
But change can follow acknowledgement. Change is what is needed but we can't change if we don't acknowledge.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I'm speaking of the acknowledgements that need to happen to change the culture. We cannot address these inherent biases without studying them. It's not a justification. We aren't saying that black men are more violent. We are saying that there needs to be acknowledgement that people presume they are before they can start dismantling that thought process.
What you're saying doesn't run counter to what the rest of us are saying.
Except I don't think the acknowledgement results in dismantling that thought process.
Of course not. But that's how it starts. The military couldn't address PTSD or the high instances of sexual assault until they openly acknowledged it.
I understand what you guys are saying and that you are not excusing the behaviors. But as someone raising a black male, it is hard not to feel like that level of understanding, while absolutely necessary to improve things, seems to be used to justify people getting off rather than actually facilitating change. And I am not referring to the board when I say this, I am talking about how in society we sympathize with the zimmermans because of course he is scared, we sympathize with the police in the vast number of wrongful shootings that have taken place because it is natural for bias to filter into their work. It is hurtful that these things get the benefit of the doubt but the victims do not. Meanwhile I have to keep coming up with a way to talk to my kids about this stuff without making them feel like they are a second class citizen.
Zimmerman is a POS who should be locked up for life.
Police officers who shoot to kill unarmed children who are not threatening the officers should have the full force of the law thrown at them. Of course not all police altercations fall into this category, but I wouldn't be surprised if this most recent one did.
I truly think that the majority of people are unaware of the racist attitudes they hold, and that for the majority of these people some extra education to help them to understand and recognize the various types of racism would actually be beneficial. I think it's going to take that before society really changes.
I also understand that there are a lot of people who still won't get this message.
Just look at how many people insist that they don't see color, that they judge all people equally etc when lord knows that is IMPOSSIBLE! You could be the nicest person ever, adopted by Angelina Jolie and you will have some racial or other stereotypes in the recesses and event at the forefront of your brain.
How about some good? My friend, a teacher at a neighboring district, just posted this pic of her students cleaning up one of the looted/burned gas stations today.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.
Nope - I can't see police officers like teachers. Maybe I'm jaded, but why do you want a creative police officer - that is the opposite of current ideology - most places want officers to follow the rules by the book and don't interpret the law in the field. And if you want someone who is qualified, non-racist, and professional, that works as a requirement in almost ANY profession. Plus, the median salary is not terrible IMO - it's pretty reasonable based on the average salary of a Police Officer in US = $56,980 and the education minimum is a GED or high school diploma. Oh and by comparison, the average salary of a high school teacher in US = $55,050 and the education minimum is bachelors and teaching certificate.
We don't pay officers more if they learn more, it's because they could be in hazardous situations and it's their job to know how to bring someone in for the justice system to deal with. I don't think raising pay or making people get a BA for a career where they don't need one is the answer. I'm not sure what the answer is, but being NOT racist or a power-loving a-hole seems like an easy place to start.
I want someone who is creative to be excellent at mediating disputes, exercising good judgment, and knowing when to follow the rulebook and when to bend the rules because life doesn't happen by the rulebook. Officers use discretion all the time- those who are excellent can mediate disputes in creative ways, for example, to avoid having to take further action and build trust within communities. What I don't want are cases like the officer who recently arrested the new mom who left her baby in the car at Walmart or the asshole who detained Ryan Moats at the emergency room while the nurse was pleading that his mother-in-law was dying. In those, the letter of the law may be followed, but the spirit certainly isn't. Blindly following rules never seems like a good idea.
I do have to say that I agree with you that police and teacher salaries shouldn't be equivalent-one job involves infinite more risk than the other. But, if you want better people (as opposed to those who just crave power and guns) you often have to pay higher salaries.
Dude, the po po already has discretion in those cases and they know it.
ETA: I also don't think most cops crave power and guns. They aren't mall cops. From what I can tell, most go in either because their family is in law enforcement, because it's a good job opportunity without needing to go to college, or because they really do have a deep seated desire to serve and protect.
I see police officers like I see teachers. Do we want creative, independent thinking, well qualified professionals? If so, we have to be willing to pay them. Sadly, right now, it doesn't seem like we're willing to. But, that doesn't mean that sentiment couldn't be changed.
Thee's this quote from a famous criminal justice professor (paraphrased): I can teach anyone to shoot a gun in 10 minutes. I need several years to help most officers understand when to keep it in their holsters.
That kind of reason and judgment seems way too hard to ingrain in someone in a 12 week academy session.
Yes this is partially true. But I think the continued refusal to understand or address the systemic racism ingrained in the criminal justice system is what allowed these things to continue. It's pervasive, so much so that even police officers of color have trouble keeping an open mind.
It's actually a pretty vicious cycle, imo. I don't believe that the vast majority of cops actively seek out that mindset. I just think it becomes enforced by their daily encounters. And I think the attitude towards police officers continues because of that. A police officer goes in putting everyone on equal footing but then they deal with neighborhoods where the vast number of their calls involve some type of stereotype. People go in the same way, trying to keep an open mind about police officers but then have many of their encounters involve attitudes from police officers.
And then in a lot of places, the PD is in effect useless. In Savannah, we are having a serious problem with our police department and with crime in general. We had something like 20 shootings in three weeks. The mayor (a black woman) went on TV numerous times and basically said if we wanted the cops to solve and prevent these crimes, we needed to act better. I mean really? Nevermind that the last police chief was recently convicted of bribery, extortion, and basically overlooking a huge ass gambling ring's activities in exchange for a cut of the profits.
There's actually some evidence that minority officers are just as likely to profile minorities as white officers are. That obviously means that, like you said, this is a systemic issue. There's something about the culture of some departments that encourage (or which can also discourage) those types of behaviors.
If you haven't seen his feed yet, a local councilman is posting really good, neutral observation videos and pics from Ferguson: www.twitter.com/AntonioFrench
Lovely. Full riot gear and tanks against people protesting.
Side note: I've been reading a lot about the police reaction to this and, having lived in St. Louis for a few years, can appreciate what a mess it would be to try to coordinate. The city is separate from the county, completely. Then in the county there are 90+ towns/cities/villages that each function separately. So you have all of these tiny "towns" with their own forces that are under no jurisdiction of the larger city force. They are underfunded and unprepared so with this all going down, they're crying SOS to the city for help. So then the city comes in guns blazing without any understanding of the local undercurrents. It's a lot of people pointing fingers and shrugging shoulders, ridiculous: www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/nick-pistor/st-louis-mayor-slay-says-ferguson-emergency-response-showcases-need/article_2faa47b4-1980-566d-92e0-57cf63553262.html
Um, police are telling everyone to go home but won't let them go home without id proving address. WTF is going on there?
Tha hell? Did they declare martial law?
Don't know. Twitter told me this. Also,saying on Twitter that press is being forced back and out. Neighborhoods blocked by police. Protestors chanting with arms up in "surrender" before them.
and yesterday, a SWAT member was caught on video telling them to bring it, you fucking animals.
Don't know. Twitter told me this. Also,saying on Twitter that press is being forced back and out. Neighborhoods blocked by police. Protestors chanting with arms up in "surrender" before them.
and yesterday, a SWAT member was caught on video telling them to bring it, you fucking animals.
Exactly this is the issue RIGHT HERE. That's why they shot an unarmed kid because they think we are animals, dude in Florida shot the kids with the music too loud because they think we are animals, and people think they can get away with it for the same reason.
Lovely. Full riot gear and tanks against people protesting.
Side note: I've been reading a lot about the police reaction to this and, having lived in St. Louis for a few years, can appreciate what a mess it would be to try to coordinate. The city is separate from the county, completely. Then in the county there are 90+ towns/cities/villages that each function separately. So you have all of these tiny "towns" with their own forces that are under no jurisdiction of the larger city force. They are underfunded and unprepared so with this all going down, they're crying SOS to the city for help. So then the city comes in guns blazing without any understanding of the local undercurrents. It's a lot of people pointing fingers and shrugging shoulders, ridiculous: www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/nick-pistor/st-louis-mayor-slay-says-ferguson-emergency-response-showcases-need/article_2faa47b4-1980-566d-92e0-57cf63553262.html
Yep. But the little townships are all under the county jurisdiction. There is a county government and police force.
St. Louis was once the 3rd largest city in the US. At the turn of the century, it was still thriving (1904 World's Fair, Olympics, etc).
But the city was short-sighted and didn't want the to pay for the county infrastructure, hence the split in 1876. Dumbest move ever. As the outlying county grew throughout the last century, much of the wealth and tax base went there.
This split is also the reason St. Louis is maligned in national crime statistics. A statistician in KS who has a hard on for STL uses the entire metro population (2.7 mil) to qualify it for inclusion in the study, as the city population alone (only 318,000) wouldn't be enough, but then when reporting the crime stats, only the city numbers are used, without the lower crime figure from the county to balance it out.
I'm not sure exactly how the county/city split affects this situation, other than that there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen. It's probably a clusterfuck, trying to coordinate between STL City police, county police, Ferguson police, FBI, and perhaps even the national guard?
Well thank goodness we had all this cheap military surplus equipment to just give away to law enforcement. Jesus Christ.
Did you see the lines of armored vehicles they drove around Watertown MA during the shut down when searching for the Boston Marathon bomber? I was like - where the hell did all this stuff come from?