This may be a stupid question, but I honestly don't know anything about how campus crimes are handled. If a rape happens on campus, is it only the campus police that deal with it? Can local police get involved? (By that I mean, I live in Pittsburgh. If something happens on Pitt's campus, is it only Pitt Police involved, or can the City of Pittsburgh Police get involved?) I read a lot of stories like this where it's like "all he got was a semester suspension" and it blows my mind. Can a victim escalate it to local police if he or she wishes? To pursue more criminal charges? Or is he or she limited in where they can report things?
This may be a stupid question, but I honestly don't know anything about how campus crimes are handled. If a rape happens on campus, is it only the campus police that deal with it? Can local police get involved? (By that I mean, I live in Pittsburgh. If something happens on Pitt's campus, is it only Pitt Police involved, or can the City of Pittsburgh Police get involved?) I read a lot of stories like this where it's like "all he got was a semester suspension" and it blows my mind. Can a victim escalate it to local police if he or she wishes? To pursue more criminal charges? Or is he or she limited in where they can report things?
At UVA specifically, the article says that the crimes can be reported to the Charlottesville PD, but that they often aren't and I believe that there was some info about how students think by reporting to campus police it automatically is reported to the Charlottesville PD, but that is not the case.
My guess is that that is not atypical for large college towns with their own campus police force.
I'm beginning to wonder if honestly, these guys don't think it's rape and/or don't think it's all that bad. Because I can't otherwise explain why Drew just casually all walks up to her like, hey, wassup? Because though that was the end result obviously, it doesn't seem to me like he was trying to terrorize her or rub the crime in after the fact. It was more like it didn't even mean anything to him. It was just part of the college experience for him and something that wasn't a big deal.
@majorwife, I'm not even sure anymore if boys and men even know what women or most people want or is normal in sex. I'm not usually one to blame porn but I'm really wondering if that shit isn't contributing. Because while yes, you would think holding a girl down and gang raping her, including use of foreign objects would make men says uhm, maybe this ain't such a good idea, it clearly isn't.
But when you have generations of men watching that shit in porn and getting the wrong idea about what is normal, wanted, and consensual, then it's going to show somewhere, kwim?
Especially since by and large, men aren't watching romcoms. So I wonder if they are getting a vastly imbalanced picture of what women look like when they are enjoying sex, what kind of sex they enjoy, what enthusiastic participation looks like.
Now granted, I think it should be obvious but when the scene laid out before you mirrors a Vivid production, I guess I'm wondering how far the programming goes, kwim?
incogneato, I think you might need to take several deep breaths. I know it's your school and I know you are shaped by your own experiences but dude, this shit didn't happen overnight. The story discusses that this shit has been common place though hidden for decades and very likely happened while your friends were around.
Now I'm not trying to say your friends were active participants or that they knew. But you don't need to get defensive on their behalf. You can only be introspective for yourself.
@majorwife, I'm not even sure anymore if boys and men even know what women or most people want or is normal in sex. I'm not usually one to blame porn but I'm really wondering if that shit isn't contributing. Because while yes, you would think holding a girl down and gang raping her, including use of foreign objects would make men says uhm, maybe this ain't such a good idea, it clearly isn't.
But when you have generations of men watching that shit in porn and getting the wrong idea about what is normal, wanted, and consensual, then it's going to show somewhere, kwim?
Especially since by and large, men aren't watching romcoms. So I wonder if they are getting a vastly imbalanced picture of what women look like when they are enjoying sex, what kind of sex they enjoy, what enthusiastic participation looks like.
Now granted, I think it should be obvious but when the scene laid out before you mirrors a Vivid production, I guess I'm wondering how far the programming goes, kwim?
I try hard not to be a prude, but I have definitely wondered about the impact of all this gonzo porn being available for free to anyone with access to a computer. I don't know how anyone can be exposed to so much of that without the message sinking in that that is normal.
OTOH, we aren't a completely uncivil society, and men aren't all big dumb animals, so I also wonder how such behavior could possibly be viewed as typical; this is where I think (male) group dynamics and peer pressure probably play a huge role.
@majorwife, I'm not even sure anymore if boys and men even know what women or most people want or is normal in sex. I'm not usually one to blame porn but I'm really wondering if that shit isn't contributing. Because while yes, you would think holding a girl down and gang raping her, including use of foreign objects would make men says uhm, maybe this ain't such a good idea, it clearly isn't.
But when you have generations of men watching that shit in porn and getting the wrong idea about what is normal, wanted, and consensual, then it's going to show somewhere, kwim?
Especially since by and large, men aren't watching romcoms. So I wonder if they are getting a vastly imbalanced picture of what women look like when they are enjoying sex, what kind of sex they enjoy, what enthusiastic participation looks like.
Now granted, I think it should be obvious but when the scene laid out before you mirrors a Vivid production, I guess I'm wondering how far the programming goes, kwim?
i agree totally with your arguments about porn. i think jezebel had an article where the biggest fans of this particular porn star were invited to have lunch with her and she told them about all the injuries she receives filming. how its not all "yay sexy sex" and kittens and rainbows and orgasms and they were shocked. literally horrified that she was enduring that while they were jacking off.
and that is "consensual" sex she is engaging in.
i have no doubt that most people have a very titled view of what positive and consensual sex looks like
I watched part of that lunch interview, and I'm such a cynic because I assumed the men were faking their shock and outrage for the sake of the camera. I also assume they went right back to watching that shit, probably later that same day.
I mean hell, I would say 75% of porn conservatively speaking suggests that all types of hot women are just walking along the street, waiting for some guy to ask them to fuck in a cab, a bus, or just on the side of the road. Of course she's reluctant at first but she can be talked into it once you get her away from her friends.
And of course, once you talk her in to it, she's gung ho for letting you stick it in every orifice, even after you surprise her with a video camera, three of your friends, and some public places.
I've been surprised actually by how many times I've watched something and the girl didn't look the least bit comfortable.
I try hard not to be a prude, but I have definitely wondered about the impact of all this gonzo porn being available for free to anyone with access to a computer. I don't know how anyone can be exposed to so much of that without the message sinking in that that is normal.
OTOH, we aren't a completely uncivil society, and men aren't all big dumb animals, so I also wonder how such behavior could possibly be viewed as typical; this is where I think (male) group dynamics and peer pressure probably play a huge role.
Exactly! I think if you get a set of men/boys whose sexuality is formed by this unrealistic picture and put them in a setting with other men/boys with the same experiences, you've created an echo chamber. Then you stick them on a college campus and give them a confirmation bias and here you go.
I think over the years with varying real life experience they get the message that life is not porno. They form real relationships with women they come to care about and learn more about the female body, about what turns their SO on, and things start to change.
And yet in a show of what a sexist society we live in, women get the opposite experience, where they show up at college expecting some romance story where a woman meets her soul mate in some sweet little romance and then real life comes calling.
FWIW, I don't mean real life = rape when it comes to women. I just mean a real understanding of what relationships are like, that a nice guy may not be the guy for you, that you don't have to be in love to have sex, don't have to want to marry someone for it to be a good relationship for your life right now.
I honestly was thinking about the role porn plays in all this while getting ready and contemplating this rape problem. I don't think it doesn't play a role. But I didn't get much further than that.
Did anyone see the Law & Order SVU about a college student who was also in porn videos and was gang raped during a college party? There was an article I read with the true story that inspired the episode. But basically the men that raped her didn't think it was wrong because they were doing the same things to her they watched in the porn video. Which doesn't excuse it by any means but goes to show that pornography can warp how men view sex.
Did anyone see the Law & Order SVU about a college student who was also in porn videos and was gang raped during a college party? There was an article I read with the true story that inspired the episode. But basically the men that raped her didn't think it was wrong because they were doing the same things to her they watched in the porn video. Which doesn't excuse it by any means but goes to show that pornography can warp how men view sex.
On one hand I want to say, See??? Porn warps the mind!
OTOH, there is exactly zero excuse for a bunch of men to think that what they saw in a porn video is appropriate IRL without explicit consent. People get killed in movies all the time but we don't allow you to walk up and shoot the extras that played the dead folks. I feel like we're letting them off the hook by blaming the porn.
I'm beginning to wonder if honestly, these guys don't think it's rape and/or don't think it's all that bad. Because I can't otherwise explain why Drew just casually all walks up to her like, hey, wassup? Because though that was the end result obviously, it doesn't seem to me like he was trying to terrorize her or rub the crime in after the fact. It was more like it didn't even mean anything to him. It was just part of the college experience for him and something that wasn't a big deal.
I'm sure he'd be comfortable with this assessment. He's just entitled not a power seeking rapist criminal.
I wonder how much the drinking age plays into this. When the drinking age is 21, most students (certainly the majority of freshmen and sophomores) can't drink in public places, so all the parties get pushed to private houses and such. It's a lot easier to get away with this kind of shit in a fraternity house than in a bar where there are unaffiliated people who work there and some government oversight regarding what goes on in that establishment.
I agree that sexual assault is very prevalent on college campuses. Educating students about consent and what's right and wrong. Maybe add a session about sexual assault/affirmative consent to the new student orientation program?
I couldn't get past the actual rape and I have tears in my eyes. What the actual fuck? Where did we as a society go wrong in raising these boys (and girls - like her so called "friends") who think this is ok. Heartbreaking
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I asked my husband to read this article and help me understand how a group of boys gets to this mentality so I will report back after we talk. I can't fathom those friends not helping and the school not helping. What has happened to cause this level of systemic failure? And how many other schools are like this?
Why isn't rape handled as such an awful crime like murder? Do men know that women walk around assuming that it is a very real possibility they will be raped in their lifetime, if they haven't been already? Do men know that women, in general, view men, in general, as potential rapists? Do men feel bad about that view of their gender?
If boys play into peer pressure, can we use that to our advantage and have boys challenge other boys on their behavior as it relates to rape culture? Rape needs to be part of the conversation on sex ed.
I'm so bothered by this article and feel like I can't really put anything coherent together.
Porn does not make men rapists and violent video games don't make people shoot people. These are just smoke screens for deviant behavior perpetrated by people who are above personal responsibility and a conscience. Reading some of these replies feels like great material for these men's defense.
Porn does not make men rapists and violent video games don't make people shoot people. These are just smoke screens for deviant behavior perpetrated by people who are above personal responsibility and a conscience. Reading some of these replies feels like great material for these men's defense.
Except this isn't about porn making otherwise innocent men rape. It's about its omnipresence and easy access making what it depicts seem like the norm and causing a gradual warping of expectations, which can bend perceptions. It's about becoming desensitized to the entire concept of rape.
Porn does not make men rapists and violent video games don't make people shoot people. These are just smoke screens for deviant behavior perpetrated by people who are above personal responsibility and a conscience. Reading some of these replies feels like great material for these men's defense.
Except this isn't about porn making otherwise innocent men rape. It's about its omnipresence and easy access making what it depicts seem like the norm and cause a gradual warping of expectations, which can bend perceptions. It's about becoming desensitized to the entire concept of rape.
In this case though they lured her in there and violently raped her for 3 hours which included rape with a bottle. This isn't about desensitization this is about wanting power, control and to instill fear and pain. It's hardly about erotic sex.
I wonder how much the drinking age plays into this. When the drinking age is 21, most students (certainly the majority of freshmen and sophomores) can't drink in public places, so all the parties get pushed to private houses and such. It's a lot easier to get away with this kind of shit in a fraternity house than in a bar where there are unaffiliated people who work there and some government oversight regarding what goes on in that establishment.
This was addressed in the article:
"Frats are often the sole option for an underage drinker looking to party, since bars are off-limits, sororities are dry and first-year students don't get many invites to apartment soirees. Instead, the kids crowd the walkways of the big, anonymous frat houses, vying for entry. "Hot girls who are drunk always get in – it's a good idea to act drunker than you really are," says third-year Alexandria Pinkleton, expertly clad in the UVA-after-dark uniform of a midriff-baring sleeveless top and shorts. "Also? You have to seem very innocent and vulnerable. That's why they love first-year girls.""
Interesting that women's houses can't have alcohol and men's houses are awash in it. I wonder whose decision that was?
Many states have old laws on the books about houses where many women live together and what you can and cannot do there because of brothels. Serving alcohol is probably one of those things you can't do.
I wonder how much the drinking age plays into this. When the drinking age is 21, most students (certainly the majority of freshmen and sophomores) can't drink in public places, so all the parties get pushed to private houses and such. It's a lot easier to get away with this kind of shit in a fraternity house than in a bar where there are unaffiliated people who work there and some government oversight regarding what goes on in that establishment.
This was addressed in the article:
"Frats are often the sole option for an underage drinker looking to party, since bars are off-limits, sororities are dry and first-year students don't get many invites to apartment soirees. Instead, the kids crowd the walkways of the big, anonymous frat houses, vying for entry. "Hot girls who are drunk always get in – it's a good idea to act drunker than you really are," says third-year Alexandria Pinkleton, expertly clad in the UVA-after-dark uniform of a midriff-baring sleeveless top and shorts. "Also? You have to seem very innocent and vulnerable. That's why they love first-year girls.""
Interesting that women's houses can't have alcohol and men's houses are awash in it. I wonder whose decision that was?
It's a national approval by the national board of each sorority and the National Panhellenic Council (governing body over all National Sorority boards, each campus also has a local Panhellenic Council to govern sorority houses as a single Greek community). Fraternities have an Inter-Fraternity Council. My perception is that the Panhel board for sororities is much, much stronger than IFC for fraternity, both at a local level and national level. Also, sororities typically have very strong advisors, locally and at the national level, who are adult women ranging from ages 22 to 82 and from all walks of life. Fraternities, in my experience do not.
Each school is allowed to put 'Dry' requirements in at Greek houses if they are a registered organization of the school, and/or receive funding or housing from the school, no matter what those national councils say. Schools can also not allow physical Greek houses on campus (San Diego State is one of the schools I know about who does this).
Except this isn't about porn making otherwise innocent men rape. It's about its omnipresence and easy access making what it depicts seem like the norm and cause a gradual warping of expectations, which can bend perceptions. It's about becoming desensitized to the entire concept of rape.
In this case though they lured her in there and violently raped her for 3 hours which included rape with a bottle. This isn't about desensitization this is about wanting power, control and to instill fear and pain. It's hardly about erotic sex.
Except the bolded absolutely involves desensitization of the perpetrators.
I don't think anyone is saying there is definitely a direct correlation between porn and this particular rape; I certainly don't see anyone drawing a single line here as to this particular act. What we are talking about is a gradual cultural shift regarding sex that may be occurring as a result of easy access to porn that dehumanizes women. I don't know how you can begin to discuss the rape culture that the OP describes without getting into issues of what society is telling men and women, directly and indirectly, about sex.
In this case though they lured her in there and violently raped her for 3 hours which included rape with a bottle. This isn't about desensitization this is about wanting power, control and to instill fear and pain. It's hardly about erotic sex.
Except the bolded absolutely involves desensitization of the perpetrators.
I don't think anyone is saying there is definitely a direct correlation between porn and this particular rape; I certainly don't see anyone drawing a single line here as to this particular act. What we are talking about is a gradual cultural shift regarding sex that may be occurring as a result of easy access to porn that dehumanizes women. I don't know how you can begin to discuss the rape culture that the OP describes without getting into issues of what society is telling men and women, directly and indirectly, about sex.
This is maybe not a fully formed thought - but is this new? The easy and constant access to porn of all varieties is new. The normalization of porn is new. But is the rape culture new? Is it worse now than it was? Or would be without it?
Except the bolded absolutely involves desensitization of the perpetrators.
I don't think anyone is saying there is definitely a direct correlation between porn and this particular rape; I certainly don't see anyone drawing a single line here as to this particular act. What we are talking about is a gradual cultural shift regarding sex that may be occurring as a result of easy access to porn that dehumanizes women. I don't know how you can begin to discuss the rape culture that the OP describes without getting into issues of what society is telling men and women, directly and indirectly, about sex.
This is maybe not a fully formed thought - but is this new? The easy and constant access to porn of all varieties is new. The normalization of porn is new. But is the rape culture new? Is it worse now than it was? Or would be without it?
I think that's one of the issues we're struggling with when we wonder what role, if any, internet porn is playing into all of this. I certainly don't think rape culture per se is new, but I wonder if it has evolved into something more overt and openly acceptable.
This is maybe not a fully formed thought - but is this new? The easy and constant access to porn of all varieties is new. The normalization of porn is new. But is the rape culture new? Is it worse now than it was? Or would be without it?
I think that's one of the issues we're struggling with when we wonder what role, if any, internet porn is playing into all of this. I certainly don't think rape culture per se is new, but I wonder if it has evolved into something more overt and openly acceptable.
I have a hypothesis formed since I typed the above - I think in our current more *ahem* pc times, we might be a little further along in this journey toward not living in a world full of rapey mcrapersons if we didn't also have the constant stream of internet porn.
I mean - women have always been a commodity. But men aren't exactly out there pillaging anymore in the US. The definition of manhood IS shifting, albeit slowly and painfully. So maybe we'd be less likely to have shit like this happen if it wasn't for the normalization of this sort of shit in the never ending stream of porn. Alternatively - the never ending stream of porn may simply be the outlet for the deeply broken part of our little monkey brains that LIKED the raping and pillaging of times gone past.
As an alum, this is utterly horrifying. It's blowing up my FB feed too. People are furious and honestly stunned. I know a lot can change in a decade and I'm sure things happened then, too, but I lived across the street from that frat and never ever heard if anything like this. Back then their hazing involved them streaking through sororities while the girls covered their eyes. They also weren't known as a particularly wealthy or elite frat to my knowledge. I still keep in touch with a few guys from that house and I'm sure this is horrifying to them.
I'm honestly just stunned. I don't understand how things have come to this and I'm wracking my brain to think if there were signs if this sort if thing back in my time there and I really can't think of anything. Again NOT saying sexual assault didn't happen, just that I never got the sense that it was endemic or that there were gang rapes occurring. Living in a house with 22 girls who spent a lot of time over there I feel like there would have been whispers if this was the case back then?
Other than pressuring the school I'm not sure what to do. I know a number of people who are writing the school to say that they won't donate a cent until the school steps up.
I will say, though, that the Hannah Graham thing, while related bc she was a student, really doesn't offer much insight into this issue. Her abduction wasn't on campus, not even close by college student standards, and the criminal was not affiliated with the college (well, worked at the hospital which is a huge, top-tier hospital, not a small local one) so I don't think that particular crime, as horrifying as it was, has much to offer in learning about how the school is handling these things.
Ugh. Ugh. Awful.
I'm late to this, but this is spot on, and I hope it catches on with alumni of all colleges until they step up and start addressing rape culture.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”