Sarah's storytelling aside, it's hard for me to understand how jurors felt that they had enough evidence trying to piece together timelines of stoners (least reliable timekeepers ever) a soap opera motive, and cell phone tower evidence that doesn't corroborate the story of what allegedly happened at the actual time of death.
But did you sit in the courtroom each day and hear exactly what the jury heard when they heard it? Or did you listen to the tapes? If not how do you know for sure that you know everything about what the jury heard and when?
We are being presented a story by a woman who, it is apparently no secret, has a bias in favor of the defendant. And I think everyone has to be careful as they hear her "story."
Well, as Sarah has pointed out, neither the state nor his lawyer pursued leads that may have helped him out. Perhaps the trial would have been more "twisty turny" if they had. Also, Sarah is a storyteller, not a trial lawyer. Her job is actually to wind through a story in a fashion that will hook people in, not immediately take people from point A to point B. She's obviously very good at her job.
I know she's a storyteller. But you brought up how discussing other motives is not relevant. Maybe not in a courtroom. But we are having a discussion on a message board about a "story." Therefore if someone is going to question the veracity of Adnan's motive, I want to know what motive makes more sense as that is relevant to this discussion.
I don't think we really know enough about any other potential suspects to figure that out. All we've really been presented with in any detail is Jay and Adnan. Jay was obviously involved, but maybe he's protecting someone who hasn't been mentioned at all.
I know she's a storyteller. But you brought up how discussing other motives is not relevant. Maybe not in a courtroom. But we are having a discussion on a message board about a "story." Therefore if someone is going to question the veracity of Adnan's motive, I want to know what motive makes more sense as that is relevant to this discussion.
I don't think we really know enough about any other potential suspects to figure that out. All we've really been presented with in any detail is Jay and Adnan. Jay was obviously involved, but maybe he's protecting someone who hasn't been mentioned at all.
Honestly I don't think we know enough about anything. We are all just pulling thoughts out of our ass. Let's not act like some thoughts are more credible than others and please don't tell me my question is not relevant to the discussion. I don't like that.
Motive isn't a element of the crime. The public always expects to hear one, but as an actual requirement to prove murder - no.
I told a friend I'd try to listen to this, but it really is going to make my head explode isn't it? I'm already pissed that the podcast description talks about a murder using the terms "characters" & "plot." It's appalling to me that an actual victim, regardless of who is the murderer, is treated as a character.
It would drive you bananas but I would love to hear your thoughts!
Sarah's storytelling aside, it's hard for me to understand how jurors felt that they had enough evidence trying to piece together timelines of stoners (least reliable timekeepers ever) a soap opera motive, and cell phone tower evidence that doesn't corroborate the story of what allegedly happened at the actual time of death.
But did you sit in the courtroom each day and hear exactly what the jury heard when they heard it? Or did you listen to the tapes? If not how do you know for sure that you know everything about what the jury heard and when?
We are being presented a story by a woman who, it is apparently no secret, has a bias in favor of the defendant. And I think everyone has to be careful as they hear her "story."
No, did you? The state had an obligation to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it. I am not convinced that they did but I wasn't there. Neither were you. This is the info I have to base my opinion on, and in saying that motive isn't legit. And The defense didn't have a legal obligation to provide anyone else who did have one. I don't really care for Adnan as a person. His interviews irritate me. This isn't me being biased about that. Not liking someone doesn't mean I think he's guilty though.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
But did you sit in the courtroom each day and hear exactly what the jury heard when they heard it? Or did you listen to the tapes? If not how do you know for sure that you know everything about what the jury heard and when?
We are being presented a story by a woman who, it is apparently no secret, has a bias in favor of the defendant. And I think everyone has to be careful as they hear her "story."
No, did you? The state had an obligation to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it. I am not convinced that they did but I wasn't there. Neither were you. This is the info I have to base my opinion on, and in saying that motive isn't legit. And The defense didn't have a legal obligation to provide anyone else who did have one. I don't really care for Adnan as a person. His interviews irritate me. This isn't me being biased about that. Not liking someone doesn't mean I think he's guilty though.
No. Of course not. But I'm not claiming the jury did or didn't have enough information because I just don't know what they knew.
In the end though Adnan has lost several appeals and none of those appeals were about insufficiency of the evidence (I can't remember where I read this).
I don't think we really know enough about any other potential suspects to figure that out. All we've really been presented with in any detail is Jay and Adnan. Jay was obviously involved, but maybe he's protecting someone who hasn't been mentioned at all.
Honestly I don't think we know enough about anything. We are all just pulling thoughts out of our ass. Let's not act like some thoughts are more credible than others and please don't tell me my question is not relevant to the discussion. I don't like that.
Ah, I see where we went amiss -- I didn't mean it wasn't relevant to discussion, I meant it wan't necessarily relevant to proving Adnan's guilt or innocence. I mean, if we can find someone with a solid motive, great. I'm just not seeing that with the information presented.
My thought? The timeline is off and probably for Jay's best interest. My thought is the pool hall is more pivotal than we think. Is the pool hall close to Leakin Park? I think Best Buy and the Library are both out as they are too public and if Adnan and Hae were together in either location people would have seen them.
*Based on the friend saying jay was at the pool hall when Adnan called him, and then Adnan arrived there.
Also. Since I'm going wild with conspiracy theories.
Why did Adnan give Jay his car and cell that day? My thought? Jay was Adnan's minion, selling drugs for him, etc. Maybe Adnan was the money and Jay was the courier. That would explain their relationship and why it seems to us they were closer but others only acquaintances.
(I have a cold, dayquil does strange things to me - I swear I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat in a basement somewhere )
I don't know! But I do not believe that Sarah has proven that Adnan wasn't involved.
I like your drug theory though.
Maybe Hae had to go because she knew about the selling and she was going to spill the beans. And the murder was planned by both Jay and Adnan.
But I think there would probably be evidence that that were a drug team.
Can someone remind me what happened to the HS janitor who found Hae's body? The one with the indecent exposure history? Why did they stop looking at him as a suspect?
For some reason I keep getting stuck on that investigator guy she spoke to a couple episodes back in order to see whether the folks involved had covered all their bases.
According to him, all witnesses were contacted and all evidence was considered and this case was better than most, yet we've been hearing all about evidence that was never processed (liquor bottles at the scene, the rope), and folks with information who were never contacted. How can he say this was all peachy keen in light of that?
That said, that moment when Adnan was talking about how his parents would prefer he be in prison for "a reason" or whatever seemed....iffy. I had to "rewind" and listen again a couple of times because the words he uses and how he says them, with a little hesitation, stumbling, and guardedness, for good measure, of course.
"...At the end of the day, if I had just been a good Muslim, somebody that didn't do any of these things (pause). It's something that weighs heavily on me. I mean, no way, I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae's murder but at the end of the day - I can't - yeah (pause)."
And then he goes on to talk about his parents and how they would prefer he be there for a reason vs this injustice, or whatever, but it's that quote that had stuck with me... The "if I had been somebody who didn't do those things", piece.
For some reason I keep getting stuck on that investigator guy she spoke to a couple episodes back in order to see whether the folks involved had covered all their bases.
According to him, all witnesses were contacted and all evidence was considered and this case was better than most, yet we've been hearing all about evidence that was never processed (liquor bottles at the scene, the rope), and folks with information who were never contacted. How can he say this was all peachy keen in light of that?
That said, that moment when Adnan was talking about how his parents would prefer he be in prison for "a reason" or whatever seemed....iffy. I had to "rewind" and listen again a couple of times because the words he uses and how he says them, with a little hesitation, stumbling, and guardedness, for good measure, of course.
"...At the end of the day, if I had just been a good Muslim, somebody that didn't do any of these things (pause). It's something that weighs heavily on me. I mean, no way, I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae's murder but at the end of the day - I can't - yeah (pause)."
And then he goes on to talk about his parents and how they would prefer he be there for a reason vs this injustice, or whatever, but it's that quote that had stuck with me... The "if I had been somebody who didn't do those things", piece.
I took that more as if he hadn't done drugs, gone to parties, dated non-Muslim girls he wouldn't be in this situation. Which, he's probably right.
For some reason I keep getting stuck on that investigator guy she spoke to a couple episodes back in order to see whether the folks involved had covered all their bases.
According to him, all witnesses were contacted and all evidence was considered and this case was better than most, yet we've been hearing all about evidence that was never processed (liquor bottles at the scene, the rope), and folks with information who were never contacted. How can he say this was all peachy keen in light of that?
That said, that moment when Adnan was talking about how his parents would prefer he be in prison for "a reason" or whatever seemed....iffy. I had to "rewind" and listen again a couple of times because the words he uses and how he says them, with a little hesitation, stumbling, and guardedness, for good measure, of course.
"...At the end of the day, if I had just been a good Muslim, somebody that didn't do any of these things (pause). It's something that weighs heavily on me. I mean, no way, I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae's murder but at the end of the day - I can't - yeah (pause)."
And then he goes on to talk about his parents and how they would prefer he be there for a reason vs this injustice, or whatever, but it's that quote that had stuck with me... The "if I had been somebody who didn't do those things", piece.
I kind of thought he was saying this meaning "If I hadn't been a drug dealer, if I hadn't been stoned...maybe the jury would have liked me better and I wouldn't be in here."
For some reason I keep getting stuck on that investigator guy she spoke to a couple episodes back in order to see whether the folks involved had covered all their bases.
According to him, all witnesses were contacted and all evidence was considered and this case was better than most, yet we've been hearing all about evidence that was never processed (liquor bottles at the scene, the rope), and folks with information who were never contacted. How can he say this was all peachy keen in light of that?
...
I've thought a lot about this, too. And his remarks that it's not the prosecution's job to determine the truth, but rather to find evidence that supports their case. I don't like that image of our justice system.
I think what's most interesting about Serial is the insight into the whole process.
For some reason I keep getting stuck on that investigator guy she spoke to a couple episodes back in order to see whether the folks involved had covered all their bases.
According to him, all witnesses were contacted and all evidence was considered and this case was better than most, yet we've been hearing all about evidence that was never processed (liquor bottles at the scene, the rope), and folks with information who were never contacted. How can he say this was all peachy keen in light of that?
That said, that moment when Adnan was talking about how his parents would prefer he be in prison for "a reason" or whatever seemed....iffy. I had to "rewind" and listen again a couple of times because the words he uses and how he says them, with a little hesitation, stumbling, and guardedness, for good measure, of course.
"...At the end of the day, if I had just been a good Muslim, somebody that didn't do any of these things (pause). It's something that weighs heavily on me. I mean, no way, I had absolutely nothing to do with Hae's murder but at the end of the day - I can't - yeah (pause)."
And then he goes on to talk about his parents and how they would prefer he be there for a reason vs this injustice, or whatever, but it's that quote that had stuck with me... The "if I had been somebody who didn't do those things", piece.
I took that more as if he hadn't done drugs, gone to parties, dated non-Muslin girls he wouldn't be in this situation. Which, he's probably right.
Yeah, I got that too, and I know that's how he intended for it to come across, but idk...I couldn't stop thinking about it!
I've thought a lot about this, too. And his remarks that it's not the prosecution's job to determine the truth, but rather to find evidence that supports their case. I don't like that image of our justice system.
I think what's most interesting about Serial is the insight into the whole process.
I can't speak for all prosecutors or prosecutors' offices, but I know this directly contradicts my office's mission statement and what I've seen in 12 years of practice.
I wouldn't let one comment from a non-attorney color your view of the entire process. Just as I wouldn't trust an admittedly biased narrator to provide accurate insight into the process.
I've thought a lot about this, too. And his remarks that it's not the prosecution's job to determine the truth, but rather to find evidence that supports their case. I don't like that image of our justice system.
I think what's most interesting about Serial is the insight into the whole process.
I can't speak for all prosecutors or prosecutors' offices, but I know this directly contradicts my office's mission statement and what I've seen in 12 years of practice.
I wouldn't let one comment from a non-attorney color your view of the entire process. Just as I wouldn't trust an admittedly biased narrator to provide accurate insight into the process.
I just need to stay out of here.
I'm pleased to hear you say his comments (or my interpretation of them, to be fair) contradict your mission, so I'm glad you're here and posting!
"In addition to reviewing the material Koenig and her colleagues collected, the students investigated new leads of their own, which "Serial" has not reported on as of Episode 9. Peia said the team worked by trying to answer questions they had about Syed and others closely linked to the victim, then widening their circle.
Now, "We've got these alternate suspects — very legitimate alternate suspects," Enright said.
Earlier in the fall, members of the team visited the Baltimore Police Department's Homicide Cold Case Unit, and drafted a motion for forensic testing of evidence that could potentially implicate one of the alternate suspects, and exonerate Syed. Enright, a 1992 graduate of UVA Law, has enlisted the help of another alum — her brother-in-law Paul Enzinna '87, a Maryland attorney. They are currently deciding when to file the motion."
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Nov 21, 2014 15:27:13 GMT -5
The drug theory is a good one and one I hadn't considered and would also point to why he wanted a burner phone.
It makes me crazy to know that we really won't know what happened, and that I'll have listened to this whole podcast only to reach the end and hear Sarah's expositions about the nature of certainty and the judicial process or whatever. And I know that the truth most likely lies in the middle of everyone's stories. But man, it frustrates me to not have a definite answer. I would make a terrible lawyer.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
I'm kinda stuck on Hae being in the gym during the time she was supposedly killed.
Me too. I think there is so much off with the evidence that the police chose to follow and the ones they didn't. I know this was 1999 and understandably the cell phone technology seemed way more concrete than it is, but I also just even not checking to see if the payphone that Jay says he got a call from had a record of calling Adnan's phone.
I'm not saying Adnan didn't do it. I'm back and forth on that and right now after episode 9 I'm more thinking he didn't, but I also think that the investigation was mediocre and worked b/c people wanted to know that someone was responsible for the death of this sweet, 18 year old girl, but that doesn't mean it was correct to convict. I mean, if the timeline is way off and they are only relying on Jay for that info (b/c Adnan didn't take the stand), and the murder didn't happen near when they think, and likely not even in the place that they think it happened, and they don't have physical evidence on Hae's body that shows that Adnan or Jay were there, or physical evidence that ties Adnan to the burial place or the location of the murder, it seems like they have pretty much a hunch that they sold the Jury b/c a sweet girl was killed and not a "without reasonable doubt" murder conviction. I know most of this is after the fact information now, but I think it does illuminate some major limitations with our justice system and where a mediocre investigation and circumstantial evidence along with a lot of public/jury emotion can win out over a lawyer who seems to be phoning-it-in or playing a long game that we can't figure out.
Post by downtoearth on Nov 26, 2014 12:07:58 GMT -5
Oh and what's with the 2 trials - the first was a mistrial, but why? I mean do you think they'll get into this or is there more info outside of this yet. Plus the school nurse who says Adnan is acting weird after the death - from the first mistrial - what?! I mean, who EVER goes to or hangs out with the school nurse in high school? I would surmise that she was just a fluff character person since the prosecution knew it had a mostly circumstantial case.
Just so sad. For everyone. Probably the saddest episode yet. And now we have to wait 2 weeks to hear the next episode.
Whether or not Adnan did it, I think there is a lot of reasonable doubt, it's kind of hard to believe he was convicted on just the testimony of one person. But unless there is physical evidence showing that there was no way Adnan did it I think he my never get out of prison.
I'm not sure why people get hung up on the fact that "the testimony of just one person convicted him." That was pretty strong testimony. And um, this happens all the time in law....
And in addition:
Jay took the authorities to Hae's car.
They have a phone call that put Jay and Adnan together that afternoon.
And Adnan's cell pinged the towers at the park that night.
That proves Jay was involved. And isn't there a lot about the cell phone evidence that is really questionable? That was what I gathered, but it was really hard to follow--which I believe they also pointed out was the case.
I'm surprised Sarah didn't mention what she posted on the serial website on 11/19. That it is unlikely Asia could have seen Adnan on the day of the murder based on the weather.
I'm surprised Sarah didn't mention what she posted on the serial website on 11/19. That it is unlikely Asia could have seen Adnan on the day of the murder based on the weather.
I read that just now. I think IF her memory is tied 100% to the weather, then that is the case. But also, she might just remember that freezing rain kept her at her boyfriend's house - I mean, I would have looked for an excuse to stay at my boyfriend's house in HS.
Weather underground actually says that (at this particular weather station in Baltimore) that it snowed the 2nd and 8th of Jan 1999 and all the rest were "rain" events. Link: www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBWI/1999/1/15/MonthlyHistory.html. I'm not from the area, but I'm thinking the "rain" when temps were dropping was really freezing and treated like snow days. On the 13th it goes from around 50 deg at 2pm to less than near freezing at midnight. So it's unlikely that it was freezing than, but a terrible time to bury a body in the mud. Then again, they can't even really use the Asia stuff anymore since it's pretty clear that Hae wasn't killed at the time that the prosecution said, right?
I'm surprised Sarah didn't mention what she posted on the serial website on 11/19. That it is unlikely Asia could have seen Adnan on the day of the murder based on the weather.
I read that just now. I think IF her memory is tied 100% to the weather, then that is the case. But also, she might just remember that freezing rain kept her at her boyfriend's house - I mean, I would have looked for an excuse to stay at my boyfriend's house in HS.
Weather underground actually says that (at this particular weather station in Baltimore) that it snowed the 2nd and 8th of Jan 1999 and all the rest were "rain" events. Link: www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBWI/1999/1/15/MonthlyHistory.html. I'm not from the area, but I'm thinking the "rain" when temps were dropping was really freezing and treated like snow days. On the 13th it goes from around 50 deg at 2pm to less than near freezing at midnight. So it's unlikely that it was freezing than, but a terrible time to bury a body in the mud. Then again, they can't even really use the Asia stuff anymore since it's pretty clear that Hae wasn't killed at the time that the prosecution said, right?
Asia says she remembers the day because she remembers the snow. First snow of the year. Getting snowed in at her boyfriend's house that night (that's something a highschooler is not likely to forget, lol). Her memory of Adnan is tied to snow.
I'm surprised Sarah didn't mention what she posted on the serial website on 11/19. That it is unlikely Asia could have seen Adnan on the day of the murder based on the weather.
I did. I just can't quite get to Adnan is innocent. I absolutely can't get to Jay is innocent.
I think Hae had to go not because Adnan was jealous of the new BF but because she just knew way too much about how much of a not good Muslim boy Adnan was and she was going to share this with his family or something or he thought she was. Despite what Adnan said in the third episode about not really caring about their religious or cultural differences he did and does really care A LOT about what his family thinks of him.
Did anyone listen to today's Slate spoiler special? Apparently Reddit/Innocence Project is on a mission to pin this on two serial killers in Baltimore (one is dead and the other is in jail.)
BUT OMG.
That theory is dumber than the supposed dumb case against Adnan. JAY LED THEM TO THE CAR! So unless you can prove Jay was part of some serial killer duo this theory makes no sense!!! None whatsoever!! Might as well try to prove she was killed by the chupacabra while you are at it!!!
And this was from the lofty Innocence Project!!
If your theory to exonerate a defendant is more fantastical than the case against your defendant, you may want to reassess!