A woman drives her minivan into the ocean full of kids with people watching
Maybe she got her shoelace stuck. The car did something weird.
NOt to mention the lack of knowledge about mental health.
I'm not denying that there's not proof people do these things, but I don't believe there is ever enough proof of any act to justify legally sanctioned murder.
Well that's where we disagree. People to horrible crimes with mountains of evidence against them everyday. That is plenty of proof. The guy that just admitted to killing women and their body parts were found in his apartment.
Maybe she got her shoelace stuck. The car did something weird.
NOt to mention the lack of knowledge about mental health.
I'm not denying that there's not proof people do these things, but I don't believe there is ever enough proof of any act to justify legally sanctioned murder.
Well that's where we disagree. People to horrible crimes with mountains of evidence against them everyday. That is plenty of proof. The guy that just admitted to killing women and their body parts were found in his apartment.
People confess to things they didn't do all the time. Not to mention the unknowns of mental state and brain disabilities. Nope. Doesn't justify murder.
Well that's where we disagree. People to horrible crimes with mountains of evidence against them everyday. That is plenty of proof. The guy that just admitted to killing women and their body parts were found in his apartment.
People confess to things they didn't do all the time. Not to mention the unknowns of mental state and brain disabilities. Nope. Doesn't justify murder.
This isn't about mental health we are not arguing about that.
Post by andrewsgal on Nov 20, 2014 18:17:40 GMT -5
Anyway I am done I have a sick kid that needs me. There is absolutely undeniable guilt in some situations. Not that it matters because I clearly stated thatas our system is now I don't agree with the death penalty and it's not going to change
Post by olivegoose on Nov 20, 2014 18:39:49 GMT -5
I'm not anti death penalty but some of these examples are getting a bit out there. It's too vague and there's too many variables to hash down when it is or is not acceptable. I don't think it's like PP said with comparing it to spanking to not hit, but the more I think about it... There are just too many variables. If there weren't, I would be in 100% favor of the death penalty for murdering someone. But I don't like how easily it could be wrong.
ETA- I've changed my opinion halfway through reading all this.
I'm against the death penalty, because as I have said previously on TB, I feel like if I'm going to say I am "pro life" then that means ALL life. All the time. You can't cherry pick who lives and who dies IF your pro life argument is a moral one (general you/your). KWIM?
At lot the examples list above might be considered manslaughter/second degree murder/involuntary murder and under federal law isn't punishable by the death penalty. Felony murder, like the cop example, would be punishable by death penalty, however. First degree can be very hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. Also, insanity is a defense, as we all know. I'm not sure on the State laws for the death penalty though.
This isn't about mental health we are not arguing about that.
But proof you committed a crime and proof you're responsible for committing it are two different things. Mental health is a huge factor in this debate.
I agree mental health is a huge factor but not in this particular debate.
Right. But my point is that when the court sentences you to life in prison, is the goal of that sentence to punish you or to protect society? In my experience, it's the police who are charged with protecting society and the courts who are charged with punishing criminals.
It probably doesn't matter because the goals can obviously overlap. But to me the intent/end goal of the justice system is important when you're talking about how to structure that system.
lol obviously there's a reason I went into IT instead of using my criminal justice MA. I get very caught up in the philosophies behind it all and very frustrated by the ambiguities.
We stopped trying to rehabilitate people long ago. Like the day after we set up the prison system. We punish. If you doubt which side our system falls on just see solitary confinement.
I think that many prisons do try to rehabilitate their inmates. This is completely anecdotal evidence, but my little brother spent three years in prison on drug related charges (he's a heroine addict). While he was in prison, he was able to get clean, earn his GED, and take creative writing classes and art classes. Going to prison may have saved his life. Obviously a better option would have been rehab, but sadly it's much easier to get into prison. That being said, I don't think it is possible to rehabilitate all criminals, especially violent criminals. The purpose of prison for them should be to protect the public.
We stopped trying to rehabilitate people long ago. Like the day after we set up the prison system. We punish. If you doubt which side our system falls on just see solitary confinement.
I think that many prisons do try to rehabilitate their inmates. This is completely anecdotal evidence, but my little brother spent three years in prison on drug related charges (he's a heroine addict). While he was in prison, he was able to get clean, earn his GED, and take creative writing classes and art classes. Going to prison may have saved his life. Obviously a better option would have been rehab, but sadly it's much easier to get into prison. That being said, I don't think it is possible to rehabilitate all criminals, especially violent criminals. The purpose of prison for them should be to protect the public.
This IMO is how prisons should work. I am glad he had such a great experience
This isn't about mental health we are not arguing about that.
But proof you committed a crime and proof you're responsible for committing it are two different things. Mental health is a huge factor in this debate.
Yes, they are different things. No one is arguing that. That is not the discussion that was being had.
Yes, absolute proof that someone did something can exist. That alone does not determine the penalty- that is where mental state and extenuating circumstance come into play. But having a reason why you shot someone or why you cannot be held accountable for your actions does not eliminate that there is absolute proof that you did indeed shoot that person.