Ok, and here is where it is probably the police's fault. Not the individual officer but LE at large. Kids' brains are not developed. The kid probably thought, "I can make this stop if I just give him this gun and I won't be in trouble then." The kid would not have context for why reaching for it is unacceptable or the ability to weigh out big-picture implications of doing so. I don't really trust that most officers are trained in juvenile psychology/how to respond specifically to children in such circumstances.
OR the kid could be reaching for his gun to shoot his way out of it.
Both are equally possible.
I hate guns and I hate cops, to be honest. I am not in the habit of extending cops the benefit of the doubt or believing everything they say. But in this situation, I can't blame a cop at all for firing at someone who pulls the gun from his waistband when he's told to put his hands up. I don't see that they had any alternative.
I really hope the kid survives and hope he rethinks the wisdom of trying to make people think he's packing. That's not a good road he's headed down and hopefully he can change direction.
What are you reading that you are basing this on, other than your personal belief referenced above about 12-year old brains not being developed? Is there a witness or someone saying that he was reaching for the gun to turn it over to the police? Honestly, unless someone familiar with the scene has actually voiced this, I think you are reaching here. I'd even wager to say that a 12-year old who is familiar enough with guns (BB or "real") and gun culture that he keeps it in his waistband as described, is certainly capable to reason that if he doesn't put his hands in the air and instead reaches for the gun, he might get shot.
It's not my opinion that children's brains are undeveloped. That is fact.
I fully admit (and admitted in the post you actually quoted) that it is surmise. On the other hand, it's every bit as likely as the possibility he was going to blow away the officer.
Sorry, I was referring to your personal belief that because his brain is undeveloped, he was reaching for the gun to hand it over. Not a personal belief that kids' brains are undeveloped. I understand that is a fact. Call me cynical, though, but I just don't see a 12 year old with possibly a real gun and the possibility that he might shoot someone as that remote. It's unfortunate, but its also reality.
The circumstances of Det McDonald's incident are not really comparable to this situation.
Nowhere in here was I like FUCK THE POLICE. I specifically said I wasn't really blaming the officers involved. I suggested that the system might need to better prepare its police to face children. I had no idea this was a terrible suggestion that made me a fucking idiot.
NewOrleans I don't think you're an idiot. I don't think you're thinking it though. How do you prepare for a kid walking around a crowded area with a weapon tucked into his belt like a gunslinger and waving it around? That's the problem. You prepare for the worst.
I just want to know if standard protocol includes modifications that show best practices for communicating with children. Do they need longer response time? Are commands given in a way that is understandable to them? What are the best ways of communicating the gravity of the situation? Are confrontations with children more likely to end in a certain way? What can be learned from that data? What methods work to de-escalate confrontation with children?
Honestly, I are NO reason anyone should have toy or BB guns. Kids shouldn't "play" guns, period. Hundreds of tragedies a year happen when kids think they're playing with a toy gun but its actually real, and loaded. Or this type of situation.
I see no reason for the general public to have guns either but I realize that will never happen. So first i would ban toy guns.
Ok, and here is where it is probably the police's fault. Not the individual officer but LE at large. Kids' brains are not developed. The kid probably thought, "I can make this stop if I just give him this gun and I won't be in trouble then." The kid would not have context for why reaching for it is unacceptable or the ability to weigh out big-picture implications of doing so. I don't really trust that most officers are trained in juvenile psychology/how to respond specifically to children in such circumstances.
OR the kid could be reaching for his gun to shoot his way out of it.
Both are equally possible.
I hate guns and I hate cops, to be honest. I am not in the habit of extending cops the benefit of the doubt or believing everything they say. But in this situation, I can't blame a cop at all for firing at someone who pulls the gun from his waistband when he's told to put his hands up. I don't see that they had any alternative.
I really hope the kid survives and hope he rethinks the wisdom of trying to make people think he's packing. That's not a good road he's headed down and hopefully he can change direction.
It's okay guys, we'll just make sure all the toy guns are brightly colored from now on so there's no confusion.
m.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30181338 "Ohio State Representative Alicia Reece said a new law regulating replica guns was needed in order to "prevent future deadly confrontations". The legislation would require all BB guns, air rifles and "airsoft" guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured or have prominent fluorescent strips."
It's okay guys, we'll just make sure all the toy guns are brightly colored from now on so there's no confusion.
m.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30181338 "Ohio State Representative Alicia Reece said a new law regulating replica guns was needed in order to "prevent future deadly confrontations". The legislation would require all BB guns, air rifles and "airsoft" guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured or have prominent fluorescent strips."
I can't wait to see the arguments against this, and how transparently the Rs will be in the NRAs pocket.
That is looks a lot like most airsoft (sp?) guns. I have seen kids running around backyards in neighborhoods with these. I hate that fake guns look real and that people even want to play with them, but I also feel like deadly force by the police cannot be condoned by society just because young kids are dumb around fake weapons. I just read this morning that Utah police kill more people than gangs or homicide in the state (percentage wise) and that just seems ridiculous.
Humans are completely fallible and why do we as a society condone a police officer who got a shot of adrenaline and shot an innocent person and don't realize that the 12-year-old-kid they just shot was probably also freaked out with adrenaline and maybe couldn't react correctly?!?! Basically, I don't know how this situation could have been different, but I also think that until our gun culture is to blame for taking this kids life and for that all of us and our politicians are responsible.
Black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.
That is looks a lot like most airsoft (sp?) guns. I have seen kids running around backyards in neighborhoods with these. I hate that fake guns look real and that people even want to play with them, but I also feel like deadly force by the police cannot be condoned by society just because young kids are dumb around fake weapons. I just read this morning that Utah police kill more people than gangs or homicide in the state (percentage wise) and that just seems ridiculous.
Humans are completely fallible and why do we as a society condone a police officer who got a shot of adrenaline and shot an innocent person and don't realize that the 12-year-old-kid they just shot was probably also freaked out with adrenaline and maybe couldn't react correctly?!?! Basically, I don't know how this situation could have been different, but I also think that until our gun culture is to blame for taking this kids life and for that all of us and our politicians are responsible.
That is looks a lot like most airsoft (sp?) guns. I have seen kids running around backyards in neighborhoods with these. I hate that fake guns look real and that people even want to play with them, but I also feel like deadly force by the police cannot be condoned by society just because young kids are dumb around fake weapons. I just read this morning that Utah police kill more people than gangs or homicide in the state (percentage wise) and that just seems ridiculous.
Humans are completely fallible and why do we as a society condone a police officer who got a shot of adrenaline and shot an innocent person and don't realize that the 12-year-old-kid they just shot was probably also freaked out with adrenaline and maybe couldn't react correctly?!?! Basically, I don't know how this situation could have been different, but I also think that until our gun culture is to blame for taking this kids life and for that all of us and our politicians are responsible.
Wait who is condoning this officer?
People upthread were like, "I don't blame the cop b/c the kid didn't react right." I was just saying that cops are trained to deal with their adrenaline and do simulations under high stress situations, but 12 year old kids don't and might freak out even when told to follow a command and royally fuck up. I, personally, do blame the cop, he made a decision to kill a kid. Does that mean he had another option to avoid this? No, but I still don't condone shooting with deadly force in this case (easy for me after the fact, obviously). I just wish there was something other than, "no guns" that would make this safer for society and cops.
People upthread were like, "I don't blame the cop b/c the kid didn't react right." I was just saying that cops are trained to deal with their adrenaline and do simulations under high stress situations, but 12 year old kids don't and might freak out even when told to follow a command and royally fuck up. I, personally, do blame the cop, he made a decision to kill a kid. Does that mean he had another option to avoid this? No, but I still don't condone shooting with deadly force in this case (easy for me after the fact, obviously). I just wish there was something other than, "no guns" that would make this safer for society and cops.
Saying "I understand how this tragic incodent could happen and I don't blame the cop because he did the best he could" is a far cry from condoning it.
People upthread were like, "I don't blame the cop b/c the kid didn't react right." I was just saying that cops are trained to deal with their adrenaline and do simulations under high stress situations, but 12 year old kids don't and might freak out even when told to follow a command and royally fuck up. I, personally, do blame the cop, he made a decision to kill a kid. Does that mean he had another option to avoid this? No, but I still don't condone shooting with deadly force in this case (easy for me after the fact, obviously). I just wish there was something other than, "no guns" that would make this safer for society and cops.
And seriously, what do you think the cop should have done instead? He sees a person, young looking but no way of knowing his actual age, reach into his waistband and pull out what appears to be a gun. He should have waited to see what happens next? And if the gun was real and the cop gets shot, well no biggie because fuck cops and their families, right?
Anonymous is targeting the Cleveland police dept. Please note that this child was not in the commission of a crime, he just had the bb gun. In an open carry state.
You know Open Carry doesn't work for Black Folks right?
And seriously, what do you think the cop should have done instead? He sees a person, young looking but no way of knowing his actual age, reach into his waistband and pull out what appears to be a gun. He should have waited to see what happens next? And if the gun was real and the cop gets shot, well no biggie because fuck cops and their families, right?
Post by iammalcolmx on Nov 24, 2014 15:26:47 GMT -5
OK so open carry means you can just walk around with a gun in your hands? I have seen people with them holstered but never waving them around. Also I am usually on the other-side of the argument but what is protocol when a Cop sees someone reaching for what appears to be a weapon?
People upthread were like, "I don't blame the cop b/c the kid didn't react right." I was just saying that cops are trained to deal with their adrenaline and do simulations under high stress situations, but 12 year old kids don't and might freak out even when told to follow a command and royally fuck up. I, personally, do blame the cop, he made a decision to kill a kid. Does that mean he had another option to avoid this? No, but I still don't condone shooting with deadly force in this case (easy for me after the fact, obviously). I just wish there was something other than, "no guns" that would make this safer for society and cops.
And seriously, what do you think the cop should have done instead? He sees a person, young looking but no way of knowing his actual age, reach into his waistband and pull out what appears to be a gun. He should have waited to see what happens next? And if the gun was real and the cop gets shot, well no biggie because fuck cops and their families, right?
NO, completely not what I said. I said, he didn't have an option, but IMO the cop still gets the blame for killing a kid with a BB gun. Cops are trained to do that - if hands move, they shoot.
I just feel like as soon as we say, that no one is to blame, that we are giving up on changing things. Cops don't want to shoot people, people don't want to get shot, there should still be some wiggle-room where every action where cops uses deadly force is scrutinized and more transparent so changes can be made. I'm just saying, we should have sympathy for both the officer and the kid in this case. There needs to be continued dialogue for change.
Anonymous is targeting the Cleveland police dept. Please note that this child was not in the commission of a crime, he just had the bb gun. In an open carry state.
Let's discuss this because I've been wondering for a minute about the treatment of Black people carrying weapons in open-carry states. So can people, ALL people, carry a gun around ALL neighborhoods, no problem? Can police stop you and ask you if your weapon is legal? Can they seize a legal weapon for any reason?
He couldn't have shot this kid in the leg? Why did he have to shoot him in the stomach? Practically speaking, I would expect police officers to know how to be able to shoot someone to disarm them and not keep killing boys who look like my son.
Yes, can we talk about this, too? I read somewhere that in England (or somewhere European) police shoot to disarm or stop, not to kill. Why do we do this?
He couldn't have shot this kid in the leg? Why did he have to shoot him in the stomach? Practically speaking, I would expect police officers to know how to be able to shoot someone to disarm them and not keep killing boys who look like my son.
I ask this in a non snarky way - have you done target shooting at a moving target? Shooting someone in the leg is incredibly difficult even under the calmest of circumstances. It's not practical to train officers to do anything but aim for center mass.
He couldn't have shot this kid in the leg? Why did he have to shoot him in the stomach? Practically speaking, I would expect police officers to know how to be able to shoot someone to disarm them and not keep killing boys who look like my son.
It's not that simple - this isn't the movies. If a weapon is a danger to the cop or society, they have to use deadly force.
One common criticism is that police didn’t aim to just wound a person. Another is that an officer should simply shoot a weapon out of a person’s hand.
Experienced officers will tell you such shots are fiction, unlikely bits in a Hollywood movie.
Officers are taught to shoot for the torso because it’s the largest target, and to continue to shoot until the threat is no more. Kries said there have been cases of mortally wounded suspects continuing to advance on officers.
Kries said that being involved in a shooting is horrible and frightening for officers, with repercussions that last a lifetime. “If you take a life, you have to live with that,” he said.
And a high percentage of officers leave the profession within five years after a shooting, even when it was justified, according to LoRusso, who added, “I’ve never met or spoken with an officer who felt good about having to use deadly force.”
He couldn't have shot this kid in the leg? Why did he have to shoot him in the stomach? Practically speaking, I would expect police officers to know how to be able to shoot someone to disarm them and not keep killing boys who look like my son.
Yes, can we talk about this, too? I read somewhere that in England (or somewhere European) police shoot to disarm or stop, not to kill. Why do we do this?
Police in the US are trained to shoot to stop as well. They are supposed to shoot until the threat has been stopped.
Anonymous is targeting the Cleveland police dept. Please note that this child was not in the commission of a crime, he just had the bb gun. In an open carry state.
Let's discuss this because I've been wondering for a minute about the treatment of Black people carrying weapons in open-carry states. So can people, ALL people, carry a gun around ALL neighborhoods, no problem? Can police stop you and ask you if your weapon is legal? Can they seize a legal weapon for any reason?
This depends a lot on the state. In GA it is now illegal for the cops to ask you if your weapon is legal.
And seriously, what do you think the cop should have done instead? He sees a person, young looking but no way of knowing his actual age, reach into his waistband and pull out what appears to be a gun. He should have waited to see what happens next? And if the gun was real and the cop gets shot, well no biggie because fuck cops and their families, right?
NO, completely not what I said. I said, he didn't have an option, but IMO the cop still gets the blame for killing a kid with a BB gun. Cops are trained to do that - if hands move, they shoot.
I just feel like as soon as we say, that no one is to blame, that we are giving up on changing things. Cops don't want to shoot people, people don't want to get shot, there should still be some wiggle-room where every action where cops uses deadly force is scrutinized and more transparent so changes can be made. I'm just saying, we should have sympathy for both the officer and the kid in this case. There needs to be continued dialogue for change.
Ok I'm sorry I took what you said the wrong way. I have sympathy for the kid too. Kids shouldn't get killed for making dumb decisions. But I don't see how this could have been avoided in these circumstances.
i still think that if we didn't have toy guns that look identical to the real things and a culture so awash in guns that it's entirely possible that a twelve year old wold be carrying a real gun, these things would not happen.