Anonymous is targeting the Cleveland police dept. Please note that this child was not in the commission of a crime, he just had the bb gun. In an open carry state.
Let's discuss this because I've been wondering for a minute about the treatment of Black people carrying weapons in open-carry states. So can people, ALL people, carry a gun around ALL neighborhoods, no problem? Can police stop you and ask you if your weapon is legal? Can they seize a legal weapon for any reason?
The laws differ by state depending on where, when, and if you need a permit for open carry. The most permissive states do not require a permit or license, and usually just have signs as to where they are not permitted. The open carry part is that the gun has to be visible - so you can't have it under clothes or in a holster under coats/pants/clothes.
ETA: Some states restrict this to just handguns, but other states allow any gun to be open carry. I don't know that rules for transporting in a car, but I don't think they have to be visible then, but you have to disclose when stopped by an officer. Also there are sometimes areas (cities vs. county property) that allow open carry while a small portion of that area doesn't.
He couldn't have shot this kid in the leg? Why did he have to shoot him in the stomach? Practically speaking, I would expect police officers to know how to be able to shoot someone to disarm them and not keep killing boys who look like my son.
It's not that simple - this isn't the movies. If a weapon is a danger to the cop or society, they have to use deadly force.
One common criticism is that police didn’t aim to just wound a person. Another is that an officer should simply shoot a weapon out of a person’s hand.
Experienced officers will tell you such shots are fiction, unlikely bits in a Hollywood movie.
Officers are taught to shoot for the torso because it’s the largest target, and to continue to shoot until the threat is no more. Kries said there have been cases of mortally wounded suspects continuing to advance on officers.
Kries said that being involved in a shooting is horrible and frightening for officers, with repercussions that last a lifetime. “If you take a life, you have to live with that,” he said.
And a high percentage of officers leave the profession within five years after a shooting, even when it was justified, according to LoRusso, who added, “I’ve never met or spoken with an officer who felt good about having to use deadly force.”
Maybe I'm remembering wrong then.
Oh well, back to gun control. and we all know how that works.
Post by iammalcolmx on Nov 24, 2014 15:39:20 GMT -5
This whole thing is just the perfect storm of terrible. I thought fake guns are supposed to have some sort of bright color on them letting everyone know they are fake. I am not judging the actions or decision making skills of a 12 year old especially one who lost his life. I am not well versed in police training but if that cop thought the gun was real what was he supposed to do. Seems like everything failed this child.
One common criticism is that police didn’t aim to just wound a person. Another is that an officer should simply shoot a weapon out of a person’s hand.
Experienced officers will tell you such shots are fiction, unlikely bits in a Hollywood movie.
Officers are taught to shoot for the torso because it’s the largest target, and to continue to shoot until the threat is no more. Kries said there have been cases of mortally wounded suspects continuing to advance on officers.
Kries said that being involved in a shooting is horrible and frightening for officers, with repercussions that last a lifetime. “If you take a life, you have to live with that,” he said.
And a high percentage of officers leave the profession within five years after a shooting, even when it was justified, according to LoRusso, who added, “I’ve never met or spoken with an officer who felt good about having to use deadly force.”
Maybe I'm remembering wrong then.
Oh well, back to gun control. and we all know how that works.
Post by cattledogkisses on Nov 24, 2014 15:40:46 GMT -5
I certainly don't want to minimize the very real issue of overuse of deadly force on black men and boys.
But when an officer responds to calls of a person with a gun, and that person, upon being told to put their hands up instead pulls out a very real-looking gun, I have a hard time faulting that officer for their response, even though it had very tragic consequences.
Apparently Anonymous has shut down ALL the City's websites. Which really just ends up hurting the people that depend on the city's services and resources, not just the actual city government itself. I get what they're trying to do, but...is this who you're really trying to affect?
This whole thing is just the perfect storm of terrible. I thought fake guns are supposed to have some sort of bright color on them letting everyone know they are fake. I am not judging the actions or decision making skills of a 12 year old especially one who lost his life. I am not well versed in police training but if that cop thought the gun was real what was he supposed to do. Seems like everything failed this child.
Yes, it just makes me so mad that the 911 caller said that the gun was "probably fake," then added, "I don't know if it's real or not." But the chief said Monday that he didn't know whether a dispatcher shared that information with responding officers.
Why wouldn't you take the time to instruct the officer of this information before sending them into this call?!?! It might not have changed anything... or it could have changed EVERYTHING.
I'm annoyed that this is the 2nd recent incident, that I know of, of a Black person getting killed over a BB gun and I know we are not the only people with BB guns. We get killed with BB guns, no guns,skittles...I'm so over it.
This whole thing is just the perfect storm of terrible. I thought fake guns are supposed to have some sort of bright color on them letting everyone know they are fake. I am not judging the actions or decision making skills of a 12 year old especially one who lost his life. I am not well versed in police training but if that cop thought the gun was real what was he supposed to do. Seems like everything failed this child.
Yes, it just makes me so mad that the 911 caller said that the gun was "probably fake," then added, "I don't know if it's real or not." But the chief said Monday that he didn't know whether a dispatcher shared that information with responding officers.
Why wouldn't you take the time to instruct the officer of this information before sending them into this call?!?! It might not have changed anything... or it could have changed EVERYTHING.
I'm annoyed that this is the 2nd recent incident, that I know of, of a Black person getting killed over a BB gun and I know we are not the only people with BB guns. We get killed with BB guns, no guns,skittles...I'm so over it.
I'm annoyed that this is the 2nd recent incident, that I know of, of a Black person getting killed over a BB gun and I know we are not the only people with BB guns. We get killed with BB guns, no guns,skittles...I'm so over it.
If you are talking about the Walmart thing, I agree and I'm sure there are many others that we don't know about.
I understand that there is obviously a line between a criminal murder of people carrying fake guns and no charges what-so-ever, so why aren't there more repercussions for shooting to kill?! How about negligence or failure to "protect and serve" or something? I can't figure out how there are no charges or changes to the police force for any of these incidents. It's like they investigate for 3-9 months after and then say "justified" shooting and everyone just has live with that.
I'm annoyed that this is the 2nd recent incident, that I know of, of a Black person getting killed over a BB gun and I know we are not the only people with BB guns. We get killed with BB guns, no guns,skittles...I'm so over it.
Ditto. So, please miss me with all the what happens in movies, because no one care. I know I definitely don't. Whatever it takes, figure out how to stop killing kids that look like my child, because I don't see other people's children being killed with alarming regularity. The end.
Yes, this. Do whatever it is that folks do to not kill unarmed White people. I don't care what at this point.
Loud music, walking outside, knocking on a door asking for assistance after a car accident......I want everyone, ESPECIALLY THE GODDAMN POLICE, to stop shooting all the Black people. For Christ sakes it's been going on for fucking centuries. Jesus.
I guess. I really don't think of it as an issue for which I need to hold down a side. My son is 18. He's black. He likes hoodies. I don't really think about it as a pro/con, this side is covered, this side isn't. I just don't want anyfuckingbody fucking with my kid.
Yes, but when you are black and a cop you can see both sides of SOME cases. In this case I can see both sides.
Which is why I'm always shocked that the majority of cops are NRA supporters and don't favor gun control. It's the stupidest mindset, as a group of people who deal with gun violence on the regular.
I know I'm citing mother jones, but it's good reading for how much the NRA gets cops on their side of anti-gun control.
Apparently Anonymous has shut down ALL the City's websites. Which really just ends up hurting the people that depend on the city's services and resources, not just the actual city government itself. I get what they're trying to do, but...is this who you're really trying to affect?
Yeah but people are angry so nothing else matters.
Black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.
I just don't see how age is relevant in this situation. There was no question this kid had a gun in his hand. A 12yo is just as capable of shooting it as a 16 yo.
Aside from "just shoot him in the leg to disarm" being something that only exists on TV, any bullet wound can end up being a fatal one.
My (white) cousin was wrongfully killed by a cop a few years ago during a traffic stop. Really, really long story short, the cop originally claimed my cousin pulled a gun on him, meanwhile, it later came out that the only weapon to be found in my cousin's possession at the time was a pocket knife that was in his locked glove compartment.
Anyway, my cousin was shot 5 times, including once in the leg. The leg shot nicked his femoral artery, and he bled out in minutes. THAT was the shot that killed him.
Using a gun = potentially using deadly force. Always.
ETA: I am not using this story as a comparison to what happened here at all, just weighing in on why "just shoot him in the leg" isn't this non-lethal and totally realistic alternative option a lot of people (in general) believe it is.
Black boys as young as 10 may not be viewed in the same light of childhood innocence as their white peers, but are instead more likely to be mistaken as older, be perceived as guilty and face police violence if accused of a crime, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.
I just don't see how age is relevant in this situation. There was no question this kid had a gun in his hand. A 12yo is just as capable of shooting it as a 16 yo.
Because when it comes to folks who look like me, our kids are automatically assumed to be the following:
1. Older. From this thread, "Have you seen how big 12 year olds are now." The study here shows that black kids are viewed to be some 4.5 years older than they are.
2. Society has already decided that black boys must somehow be more dangerous and are assumed to be thugs and since he had a gun, I can also assume that this Big 12 Year Old is probably 16 with a gun because he's a gang banger anyway.
And again - like everyone in this thread keeps saying - we're not seeing a bunch of little white boys get shot up because they have BB guns. It's tiring. And if you look at the study and see that the automatic assumption is that the kid is older and they have a greater incidence of the police being violent toward them - it is in fact relevant. Because if Downtoearth is saying she's seeing the same guns in her neighborhood, why are there other cases of kids that don't look like me getting shot?
NO, completely not what I said. I said, he didn't have an option, but IMO the cop still gets the blame for killing a kid with a BB gun. Cops are trained to do that - if hands move, they shoot.
I just feel like as soon as we say, that no one is to blame, that we are giving up on changing things. Cops don't want to shoot people, people don't want to get shot, there should still be some wiggle-room where every action where cops uses deadly force is scrutinized and more transparent so changes can be made. I'm just saying, we should have sympathy for both the officer and the kid in this case. There needs to be continued dialogue for change.
This is where I am at. Cops are trained in most departments to shoot "to stop." That's center of mass as was discussed earlier. As I said, I find it hard to try to script an alternative solution if I put myself in this officers' place. What possible harm might this suspect have done to me? What possible harm to others? There is no room for second guesses.
I guess I don't see this as a black issue, I see this as a deeper issue, a human issue. It's in all of our best interest to try to change this situation to prevent anything like this from happening. I am not denying that these deaths of from police/gun violence isn't greater than others, because that's deeply troubling data, but I am trying to suggest that there is a removed cause beyond just race. It's American culture: we are unabashed about our love for guns and our disdain/distrust of LE.
Issues like: Why do we allow children to play with guns, even when we know the possible fatal consequences? Why are we okay with condoning/tolerating/romanticizing a gun culture among young people, especially in black communities?
Issues like: Why don't all police officers have the option of carrying a taser instead of a service weapon? Why isn't there more social justice training for police officers? Why isn't there more positive community-building and trust-building going on with the police depts and the communities they service?
And here is where I can't separate it, because why is it that it's just little black kids getting shot by the police. I'm tired of it being - well - just the bigger issue of our love for guns. Our love for guns is NOT getting Timmy shot the fuck up on Christmas Day because he got a new BB Gun. But DeShawn? Naw, DeShawn just got shot because black boys are viewed as a threat.
I'm not skipping over that. That could be my damn nephew. My nephew whose dad has a picture of him on FB learning how to shoot a gun. That's totes ok for his dad (who is white) because that's a rite of passage. But, that rite of passage gets my nephew shot.
I don't know why this keeps getting pushed aside. Oh wait - yeah I do. Because that means people have to admit to inherent biases. And no one wants to be called racist. Silly me. *shrugs and throws up hands*
This whole thing is just the perfect storm of terrible. I thought fake guns are supposed to have some sort of bright color on them letting everyone know they are fake. I am not judging the actions or decision making skills of a 12 year old especially one who lost his life. I am not well versed in police training but if that cop thought the gun was real what was he supposed to do. Seems like everything failed this child.
I just saw on CBS News that the BB gun was lacking the orange tip to show that the gun was fake.
Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old Cleveland resident, went to the neighborhood playground Saturday with friends carrying a fake gun and waved it around. It cost him his life.
CBS affiliate WOIO in Cleveland reports one of the 911 callers said of the boy and his Airsoft replica gun at the time: "It's probably fake, but you know what, it's scaring the [expletive] out of people."
Police showed up. One of the officers called to the playground saw the pistol sitting on a table or bench, and watched the boy grab it and put it in his waistband, Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said.
airsoft cleveland shot
Cleveland police say this is the replica weapon they recovered from a 12-year-old who was shot by police on a rec center playground on Nov. 22, 2014.
WOIO
The cops had not been told the 911 caller thought the gun could be a fake, Follmer said. The Airsoft replica gun, which fires the equivalent of BB pellets, was missing its orange safety cap, which is designed to indicate its status as something other than a deadly weapon.
The officers ordered Rice to put his hands up. Police officials said the boy instead grabbed for his fake gun in his waistband.
Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said: "That's when the officer fired."
Rice died the next morning. Officials said at a news conference Monday the cops were standing 10 feet away when one of them shot the boy.
Attorney Timothy Kucharski, who has been hired by Rice's family, told WOIO that "an innocent boy was shot and killed" by a rookie officer.
The two officers involved in the shooting have been placed on administrative leave, which is standard procedure. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that the other officer involved is a 10-year department veteran.
"This is not a black and white issue. This is a right and wrong issue. This is not a racial issue. This is about people doing their jobs the right way," said Kucharski.
The police department said it has collected surveillance video and other evidence and will present it to the county prosecutor's office. An official also said they have yet to formally interview the officers about the incident, and that the officer who fired the fatal shot was shaken by it.
Tomba said surveillance video of the shooting is "very clear" about what occurred, but he wouldn't discuss details of what it shows.
People representing the boy's family viewed the video Monday, but police didn't release it publicly because it is considered evidence and because they want to be sensitive to the family, the community and the officer, who is distraught, officials said.
After reviewing the evidence, prosecutors will present the case to a grand jury, which will decide whether the officer was justified in using force against the boy.
tamirrice2112314.jpg
The scene of the Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland, Ohio, on Nov. 22, 2014. WOIO
Donnie Pastard a local activist with the local anticrime group, Black on Black, told WOIO he doesn't think there was racial malice involved, but that doesn't excuse what happened.
"I do not think these police officers left home to kill a black child. But I do think there's training involved there. There's the race factor involved. This is something we gonna have to talk about, whether we like it or not," said Pastard.
A 14-year-old who was at the scene on Saturday told WOIO they warned Rice about playing with fake guns on the playground.
"It could have been prevented by him going home," he said. "I wouldn't want my life to end so young. Probably had a bright future ahead of him."
On Sunday, state Rep. Alicia Reece, of Cincinnati, announced plans to introduce new legislation requiring that all BB guns, air rifles, and Airsoft guns sold in Ohio be brightly colored or have prominent florescent strips, so there is no confusion. According to federal law, toy and replica guns must have an orange tip on the barrel.
For Deputy Chief Tomba, there could have been a simpler solution to the problem.
"When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," said Tomba.
Post by decemberwedding07 on Nov 24, 2014 18:27:02 GMT -5
If Ohio is an open carry state, why do police respond to calls about people carrying guns? If it's legal to carry guns around, why would they respond to that? It's totally a coincidence that the morons who show up to Home Depot armed to the hilt as "activism" are white and are never shot, but that two people have been shot and killed for holding BB guns in Ohio while being blah people, isn't it? Total coincidence.
If Ohio is an open carry state, why do police respond to calls about people carrying guns? If it's legal to carry guns around, why would they respond to that? It's totally a coincidence that the morons who show up to Home Depot armed to the hilt as "activism" are white and are never shot, but that two people have been shot and killed for holding BB guns in Ohio while being blah people, isn't it? Total coincidence.
It's not just carrying guns. You can carry a gun but only in certain places and you can't go around pointing it at people or threatening them.
This whole thing is just the perfect storm of terrible. I thought fake guns are supposed to have some sort of bright color on them letting everyone know they are fake. I am not judging the actions or decision making skills of a 12 year old especially one who lost his life. I am not well versed in police training but if that cop thought the gun was real what was he supposed to do. Seems like everything failed this child.
Donnie Pastard a local activist with the local anticrime group, Black on Black, told WOIO he doesn't think there was racial malice involved, but that doesn't excuse what happened.
"I do not think these police officers left home to kill a black child. But I do think there's training involved there. There's the race factor involved. This is something we gonna have to talk about, whether we like it or not," said Pastard.
For Deputy Chief Tomba, there could have been a simpler solution to the problem.
"When an officer gives a command, we expect it to be followed," said Tomba.
For the first, this must be a misprint because we have been informed repeatedly both in society and on this very board that blacks don't care about black-on-black crime, so this organization clearly doesn't exist.
For the second, I mean-- yes, of course that's the simplest and most hoped-for solution. But the punishment for not listening to people isn't the death penalty. And I just fear that someone can be scared out of their minds and distracted by fear from responding with the correct form of compliance-- resulting in his/her death. Because that could be ANY of us. Shit, I can see myself being scared and WTF and trying do the right thing but doing the exact wrong thing instead.
There has to be SOME middle ground between officers shooting to kill a suspect (particularly one who hasn't actually been involved in a violent crime) and officers themselves dying. Please note that I don't believe officers are or can be trained as sharp shooters, so that's not a solution I'm proposing. I just would like to think that there can be some LE best practices in confrontation that don't involve anyone dying.
What does research show about non-lethal weapons?
What about approach tactics-- how are officers trained to approach a potentially armed suspect? The article above makes it sound like he was 10 feet away, really close range. Is this protocol? It sounds like officers are just expected to put themselves out there and go right up to him. Since this puts the officer in direct danger and the NEED to shoot to save him/herself, could this be improved in any way?
I'm genuinely not trying to be a know-it-all. I am as much interested in police safety as I am in public safety, and I think it would protect officers from scrutiny and from having to live with situations like this on their shoulders. I bet these two cops feel terrible, man.
PS: I don't see this situation as too comparable to the Crawford shooting, especially having seen the Crawford video. I was a lot less sympathetic to the cops in that situation from the beginning because I have seen those open carriers in the stores (like for their pro-gun protests) and since Crawford was an adult in an open-carry state, then he should have been allowed to open-carry like those other fools.