I'll get flamed, but I'll admit, assuming there is no mental illness on his part, I am uncomfortable putting the experiences of women, men and children who were raped under circumstances of coercian, manipulation, violence, drugs, mental impairment, subjugation, abuse, etc. in the same category with someone who didn't want to break from his performance art piece, again assuming that is the reason. I'm sorry that this happened to him and I know only "yes means yes", I really do. But this one is difficult for me to wrap my head around.
If putting assorted rapes on a scale of horrible to horriblest is an activity we need to engage in for some reason - well then, sure, this one goes somewhere well above a child being abused by a loved one for example.
But I'm not really sure what purpose that exercise serves.
I don't think she's putting them on a scale of horrible so much as asking whether or not saying, "You can do whatever you want to do to me alone in this room for as long as you want," without any exclusions of any kind is basically giving consent to someone doing... whatever they want to do, without exclusions.
If putting assorted rapes on a scale of horrible to horriblest is an activity we need to engage in for some reason - well then, sure, this one goes somewhere well above a child being abused by a loved one for example.
But I'm not really sure what purpose that exercise serves.
I don't think she's putting them on a scale of horrible so much as asking whether or not saying, "You can do whatever you want to do to me alone in this room for as long as you want," without any exclusions of any kind is basically giving consent to someone doing... whatever they want to do, without exclusions.
Please. Read the whole thread before you respond more.
So people cannot be raped unless they explicitly say "no rape"?
This is the OPPOSITE of where we are going with sexual assault thinking. Yes means yes. Yes means yes. Yes means yes.
Should we all wear signs around our necks that say "no raping allowed" and if we don't we can be raped?
I think that if you tell a bunch of strangers "You can do whatever you want to do to me alone in this room," you should put some qualifications on that if there are things you actually don't want done to you.
The collaborators said they never told people they could do whatever they wanted to him, so if that's true then a large chunk of this entire discussion is moot.
Then this is a completely different. The OP makes it sound like he said, "You can do whatever you want to do to me." I think the collaborators are ridiculous for not providing security to make sure that nobody was going to try to hurt him or make him hurt someone.
I was under the impression that he and the woman were alone in the room together - there were guards/ushers posted outside the doors, and the woman's boyfriend was outside, in line to come through next. It was only after an inordinately long period of time and the woman leaving with messed up hair and clothing that they thought the situation was peculiar. But if you've read a different description, let me know. I admit I only skimmed this article, which I also saw on FB yesterday.
Now his collaborators are saying they did intervene and they never said people could do whatever they wanted to him. The woman ran away before they could figure out who she was though. That makes more sense than what was reported in the op.
This makes infinitely more sense. I just can't believe there weren't cameras and security? Doesn't every famous person have at least one seriously deranged stalker? You hold a highly publicized chance for people to be alone in a room with you and you don't have someone watching the room on CCTV? Taking into consideration the odds that he has stalkers, I'm kind of surprised nobody tried to kill him.
I'm totally guilty of this but man is it fucking annoying when someone blazes into a lengthy and heated discussion and starts rapid firing off responses w/out investing any time in the preceding conversation. I will make note of my frustration and try not to do the same in the future.
i dont get this. l love shia. i dont even think i would have touched him in an art instillation. i would probably hug him if i saw him on the street and told him i totally loved him and asked for an autograph, lol.
I'm back. I would have kissed Idris. And asked him to marry me and/or be my baby daddy.
I would question Idris if he didn't break character to accept your offer and sweep you away.
Personally, I think the entire situation as described (which isn't very well) is just strange. Now it's not strange enough to be all NOOOOOO SHIA IS A LIAR or WHY DID HE LET SOME WOMAN RAPE HIM. And I don't believe I'm entitled to enough details to make me think it isn't strange. That's his business, the justice system's business, and probably his therapist's.
It also doesn't mean he wasn't raped.
It merely means that I'm confused. And I personally think that's fine. Shia doesn't know what I think and I'm not on any jury. It's also a very unique situation that is unlikely to influence how I respond to any one else's rape accusation.
So I'm okay with finding the story strange and KOKO.
Personally, I think the entire situation as described (which isn't very well) is just strange. Now it's not strange enough to be all NOOOOOO SHIA IS A LIAR or WHY DID HE LET SOME WOMAN RAPE HIM. And I don't believe I'm entitled to enough details to make me think it isn't strange. That's his business, the justice system's business, and probably his therapist's.
It also doesn't mean he wasn't raped.
It merely means that I'm confused. And I personally think that's fine. Shia doesn't know what I think and I'm not on any jury. It's also a very unique situation that is unlikely to influence how I respond to any one else's rape accusation.
So I'm okay with finding the story strange and KOKO.
This is exactly what I felt when I posted it earlier this week…it was more of a WTF? than a 'No, this couldn't have happened, he is full of it'…it's just all so weird.
I cannot believe they let her 'run' off and do nothing to apprehend her. There was a long line, surely someone could have caught her. At what point did they decide to intervene? She was beating on him and they stood by until it got to what point? This whole thing is sad.
I'm totally guilty of this but man is it fucking annoying when someone blazes into a lengthy and heated discussion and starts rapid firing off responses w/out investing any time in the preceding conversation. I will make note of my frustration and try not to do the same in the future.
I've been reading this thread in bits on and off all day, why do you think I waited until now to comment? Due to the topic, this thread is for sure one that needs to be read in it's entirety first.
I cannot believe they let her 'run' off and do nothing to apprehend her. There was a long line, surely someone could have caught her. At what point did they decide to intervene? She was beating on him and they stood by until it got to what point? This whole thing is sad.
Regarding the whipping, his desk was set up with various things for people to use to interact with him. Flowers, alcohol, pliers etc., and a whip.
Ok, lots of thoughts here, I'm going to try to organize them.
First, it is odd. The whole set up was odd, but as others have said, it's performance art, that's not exactly unusual for the medium. But that doesn't preclude Shia from being raped or make him responsible for not getting raped. Not being Shia, nor the rapist or her boyfriend, I can't speak to exactly how things went down in that room. Nor can anyone else, except for those three people. And it's likely that they all have different versions of events, our own experiences and biases always shape the way we view the world and our experiences within the world.
Some are focusing on how this happened - why didn't he say or do something to prevent this from happening, or get the woman to stop - I'd argue that it doesn't matter. The motivations behind this piece, an apology to any and everyone, basically a physical manifestation of a mea culpa to society, means that to be true to his art, he found himself unable to give proper consent. Which left him feeling violated after the fact. Or maybe he felt that way during. Again, the only thing we do know now is that Shia's experience is that he did not consent to the sexual act(s). Sitting in a chair with a bag over your head is not permission for someone to do just anything to you. Consent is still needed. Maybe he never said anything in the moment, but does that mean he deserved unwanted sexual advances? If someone had come in and knifed him, would we be wondering why he didn't do more to prevent that act of violence? Yes, this particular art piece left him vulnerable, and I do think it was unwise to put his trust in strangers to that extent, but that was almost certainly an important component of the piece. Still, none of that means that the crime didn't happen. I mean, it's unwise for an abused spouse to go back to their abuser but we don't blame them directly or discount their experience the next time they end up with physical injuries.
It's possible there was initial sexual contact that wasn't unwelcome but progressed into something he didn't want. But if we're telling people that you can refuse to continue sexual activity at any point, and if it continues without your consent, it's counted as rape, why not here as well? Or maybe none of it was consensual. But why the onus on the victim to say no or stop what's happening? Just because the rapist doesn't realize in the moment that they're perpetrating rape, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Again, this situation is unusual to say the least, but does it matter if inability to say no was situational or self imposed (for art's sake)?
That's why changing no means no to yes means yes is so vitally important.
I was 100% team Shia until my co-worker brought this up today.
Just because the rapist doesn't realize in the moment that they're perpetrating rape, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
She said that is it possible that while Shia's story is 100% true, that maybe, just maybe the woman who did this didn't realize that it wasn't consensual since he didn't say or do anything? That maybe she thought his lack of action WAS consent, meanwhile on his part his lack of action was because of the art? Of course in the real world, this wouldn't be the case, but in an art exhibit maybe?
I so, so agree that sex or sex acts need a clear, sober YES. He did not tell her yes, so she shouldn't assume that sex was consented.
But my co-worker (who is into weird artsy stuff like this) insists that performance art isn't the real world. Some of it (not all) is more like those extreme haunted houses where you basically sign up to be assaulted, peed on, groped, and things that in the real world would get a person arrested. Apparently in these extreme haunted houses, they can do whatever they want to you unless you say the "magic" word. In the one she went to, if you said "Safety" they had to stop. But unless you said the word, they did what they wanted. In her words, performance art is often like this. This was based on the notion that the crowd was told "they could do what they want".
Now that we know that isn't true (thanks to this thread), I'll be bringing this up again tomorrow. I feel sorry for Shia.
This whole story is weird. I don't get why he didn't tell his girlfriend afterwards. Or at least take a break. That is very committed to the art. I believe it happened and the woman is depraved and gets no excuse. But like @icap I have questions. Mostly about performance art - not victim blaming or how this happened. Nobody could have foresaw this but if she didn't threaten him (we don't know) I don't see why he didn't try to stop her or call for help. I don't blame him, but if I am walking down the street and a guy drops his pants and says 'you have to suck my dick' and I m afraid so I drop to my knees and do it. Meanwhile hundreds of people walk by me - am I being raped? That's horrible that someone would feel such fear in that situation. As a bystander, I wouldn't think to help that woman. Maybe it's not the same. Maybe I am victim blaming.
Oh yeah, homegirl was so sure rape** was an acceptable part of the package that she ran off and couldn't be found.
**or whatever it was she thought she was doing to him, yanno, that ended up being rape.
I thought they just can't find her. So she ran off? That doesn't look good for her if they find her.
I don't know if your post is directed toward mine but that's what my question was regarding my conversation with coworker this morning. Can this girl turn around and say, " We were told we could do anything? So we had sex. He never physically or verbally said no." Maybe she didn't know that his silence was part of the art and took it as it's okay? Not defending the girl at all. Maybe trying to make sense of this and think that it's was more of a misunderstanding between two people and not that someone took advange of a dude who obviously has some mental problems. And honestly if this was a woman in some weirdo art show doing the silent thing, I'd have the same questions.
And of course in real life this wouldn't fly. But do laws get more fuzzy at these art exhibit type things? I've never been to anything like this.
*I'm going by what my coworker who has been to these types of things said. She's more into the extreme haunted houses where S&M is part of the deal. Crying or screaming out doesn't make them stop doing what they are doing. If you don't say the magic word, you could be crying and they'll keep going.
*Now that we know that this chick wasn't told she could do whatever she wanted, it does change a lot.
An agreement between parties practicing BDSM are not usually actually legally binding. If you treat someone in a way that causes them harm, you can be prosecuted for it regardless of any agreement you had. And I would thing depending on the injuries, most juries would be happy to convict.
Now due to the biases we have when men are raped, particularly if the assailant is a woman, it might be hard to win a conviction against the attacker in this particular case. But I don't think it would be due to the "do anything you want" message that was rumored to have accompanied the stunt.
If this had been a "do whatever you like" exhibit, I do think that any reasonable and/or semi reasonable jury would conclude that since this exhibit wasn't located on a porn site, that sexual contact wasn't part of the deal unless bargained.
Now I'm not a lawyer but I was pretty sure you needed something more concrete than "well, they didn't tell me to stop." There was nothing about that exhibit that suggested Shia was inviting sexual contact and I've heard nothing that suggests he said or did anything to encourage sexual contact.
An agreement between parties practicing BDSM are not usually actually legally binding. If you treat someone in a way that causes them harm, you can be prosecuted for it regardless of any agreement you had. And I would thing depending on the injuries, most juries would be happy to convict.
Now due to the biases we have when men are raped, particularly if the assailant is a woman, it might be hard to win a conviction against the attacker in this particular case. But I don't think it would be due to the "do anything you want" message that was rumored to have accompanied the stunt.
If this had been a "do whatever you like" exhibit, I do think that any reasonable and/or semi reasonable jury would conclude that since this exhibit wasn't located on a porn site, that sexual contact wasn't part of the deal unless bargained.
Now I'm not a lawyer but I was pretty sure you needed something more concrete than "well, they didn't tell me to stop." There was nothing about that exhibit that suggested Shia was inviting sexual contact and I've heard nothing that suggests he said or did anything to encourage sexual contact.
This makes perfect sense to me. I think that it's also an excellent point as stated earlier that we need to promote yes means yes.
Because, wrong as it is, fucked up as it is, there are people out there who think that not physically fighting back or verbally saying no + weirdo art exhibit= sex/sexual contact is okay.
Heck we still have frat boys who think that drunk consent is consent. We have a long way to go it seems.
The optimist in me would like to think that this girl thought she was in some 50 Shades of Gray fantasy and that it was consensual rather than think that she raped this kid and knowing his antics lately, nobody would believe him. But if she took off, then ugh. I hope they find her. Poor Shia.
Post by sugarglider on Dec 4, 2014 10:18:15 GMT -5
Because performance art often deals with pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable in society and sometimes even crossing those boundaries, particularly with regard to sex, if the boundaries had explicitly been, "you may do whatever you want," I do still think that there would be a compelling argument that that was affirmative consent.
HOWEVER, as it was simply, "Shia is here to apologize," or whatever, that changes it entirely. Crazy rapist lady may still try to swing it as she needed to rape him in order to accept his apology, but I don't think she'd get very far with that.
Post by barcelonagirl on Dec 4, 2014 12:53:43 GMT -5
Is anyone a criminal lawyer? I'm curious as to the defense of "well they didn't tell me to stop" in the case of a person of normal capacity with no power inequities. Boss/employee etc. This a weird case for sure but I'm not sure it wouldn't be enough for reasonable doubt? Such a mind fuck.