Oh, actually, has anyone watched Elementary? I know you have to be 60 years old to enjoy CBS shows, but stay with me. Johnny Lee Miller plays Sherlock Holmes, and he's a white, British dude. But Watson is played by Lucy Liu. See? And it's a modern interpretation set in NYC, so there's no reason Watson can't be Asian and female.
Oh, actually, has anyone watched Elementary? I know you have to be 60 years old to enjoy CBS shows, but stay with me. Johnny Lee Miller plays Sherlock Holmes, and he's a white, British dude. But Watson is played by Lucy Liu. See? And it's a modern interpretation set in NYC, so there's no reason Watson can't be Asian and female.
I don't watch it, but I only watch maybe 3 currently running network shows.
I remember hearing about that, though, and loving it.
I mean, they've turned Sherlock Holmes into a friggin' action star with Robert Downey Jr. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle did not write him as an action hero.
If he can be an action hero, there is no reason he can't be a woman, or a black dude. Or hell, if it's going to stay set in England, a South Asian dude or lady would be great.
Here, for comparison. I picked some actors off of IMDb's Most popular males who are 40 or over; their ages are in parentheses followed by the ages of their last FEMALE co-stars (not always a love interest, just a co-star).:
Harrison Ford (72) - 27, Blake Lively - although I'll give it a sorta pass because the movie involves immortality or some such so, y'know Blake's an old soul or whatever.
George Clooney (53) - 24, Britt Robertson - but she's not a love interest. At least I hope to god she's not. I think his wife is played by 39 year old Judy Greer. (Tomorrowland)
Leonardo DiCaprio (40) - 24, Margot Robbie
Matt Damon (44) - Either Jessica Chastain (37) or Kate Mara (31)
Johnny Depp (51) - 28, Amber Heard
Brad Pitt (51) - Angelina Jolie (39) and Melanie Laurent (31) [AJ directed the flim]
Tom Cruise (52) - Emily Blunt (31)
Matthew McConaughey (45) - Naomi Watts (46)
Denzel Washington (60) - Chloe Grace Mortez (17). She's not a love interest, but this is her publicity photo. They're never too young to get on that male-consumption bandwagon.
Will Smith (46) - Margot Robbie (24)
Ben Affleck (44) - AMY ADAMS IS PLAYING LOIS LANE!!! Yeah!!!
Mark Wahlberg (43) - Amanda Seyfried (29).
Tom Hanks (58) - Amy Ryan (46)
Liam Neeson (62) - Genesis Rodriquez (27) I think this is actually his daughter in law in the movie. If an actress is playing his wife, she isn't getting billing.
Jason Statham (47) - Ronda Rousey (27)
Hugh Jackman (46) - Sigourney Weaver (65) I think she plays Hugh Jackman's mother.
See? Another thing Hollywood fucks up. Believe it or not, there are and have been plenty of people of color in Britain, even in Victorian and Regency era England. Just because they don't make the background shots in a period era production doesn't mean they weren't there.
Oh, actually, has anyone watched Elementary? I know you have to be 60 years old to enjoy CBS shows, but stay with me. Johnny Lee Miller plays Sherlock Holmes, and he's a white, British dude. But Watson is played by Lucy Liu. See? And it's a modern interpretation set in NYC, so there's no reason Watson can't be Asian and female.
I don't watch it, but I only watch maybe 3 currently running network shows.
I remember hearing about that, though, and loving it.
I mean, they've turned Sherlock Holmes into a friggin' action star with Robert Downey Jr. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle did not write him as an action hero.
If he can be an action hero, there is no reason he can't be a woman, or a black dude. Or hell, if it's going to stay set in England, a South Asian dude or lady would be great.
I read an interview with Stevie Nicks around the time she did a guest arc on American Horror Story, and they asked what other shows she likes. She said, "Elementary, with that guy who used to be married to Angeline Jolie? I would marry him in a heartbeat!"
Stevie Nicks is 65. I bet Meryl Street and Susan Saradon also like CBS dramas.
I'm not saying one of them is sexier than the other. I'm saying they are looking for work in two different pools albeit in the same industry.
Cameron is not a high quality dramatic talent. She just isn't. If she were less conventionally pretty and didn't apparently have an excellent agent, she would have gone the way of a variety of conventionally pretty, marginally talented actresses.
In Hollywood, weight = sexy. I'm just attributing the work that Cameron gets to her sexuality.
I compared the work obtained by Cameron Diaz to Kate Winslet in terms of age, type, and quantity regarding Russell Crowe's comments in this thread.
KW gets work regardless of her weight, while Cameron uses her reputation and acting history to continue to get work that is generally geared towards younger tall, sexy blonds.
Plus I just looked at a Net Worth website and while, they might be worth similar amounts, KW is still getting paid <$2M/movie and is doing FAR less movies than CD. CD is getting $6M-$10M per movie. So I think that if Hollywood defines KW as pretty, but very talented and CD as sexy, that sexy earns WAY more for women than pretty talent.
ETA: Plus Cameron got some of those for Shrek movies where she plays an ogre, so I'm back to square one in figuring out box office $$ and women's roles.
I don't watch it, but I only watch maybe 3 currently running network shows.
I remember hearing about that, though, and loving it.
I mean, they've turned Sherlock Holmes into a friggin' action star with Robert Downey Jr. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle did not write him as an action hero.
If he can be an action hero, there is no reason he can't be a woman, or a black dude. Or hell, if it's going to stay set in England, a South Asian dude or lady would be great.
I read an interview with Stevie Nicks around the time she did a guest arc on American Horror Story, and they asked what other shows she likes. She said, "Elementary, with that guy who used to be married to Angeline Jolie? I would marry him in a heartbeat!"
Stevie Nicks is 65. I bet Meryl Street and Susan Saradon also like CBS dramas.
Only slightly related but I heard Cammie D was getting married tonight. The Madden boy who isn't married to Nicole Richie. I mean seriously, Cameron Diaz is going to be Nicole Richie's SIL. And he's 5 years younger I think.
I also heard Susan Sarandon has a 37 year old boyfriend.
I read an interview with Stevie Nicks around the time she did a guest arc on American Horror Story, and they asked what other shows she likes. She said, "Elementary, with that guy who used to be married to Angeline Jolie? I would marry him in a heartbeat!"
Stevie Nicks is 65. I bet Meryl Street and Susan Saradon also like CBS dramas.
Only slightly related but I heard Cammie D was getting married tonight. The Madden boy who isn't married to Nicole Richie. I mean seriously, Cameron Diaz is going to be Nicole Richie's SIL. And he's 5 years younger I think.
I also heard Susan Sarandon has a 37 year old boyfriend.
I heard Cameron was marrying Benji tonight at their house, but what does this have to do with Nicole Richie as a SIL?
In Hollywood, weight = sexy. I'm just attributing the work that Cameron gets to her sexuality.
I compared the work obtained by Cameron Diaz to Kate Winslet in terms of age, type, and quantity regarding Russell Crowe's comments in this thread.
KW gets work regardless of her weight, while Cameron uses her reputation and acting history to continue to get work that is generally geared towards younger tall, sexy blonds.
Plus I just looked at a Net Worth website and while, they might be worth similar amounts, KW is still getting paid <$2M/movie and is doing FAR less movies than CD. CD is getting $6M-$10M per movie. So I think that if Hollywood defines KW as pretty, but very talented and CD as sexy, that sexy earns WAY more for women than pretty talent.
ETA: Plus Cameron got some of those for Shrek movies where she plays an ogre, so I'm back to square one in figuring out box office $$ and women's roles.
It kind of does earn you more, being sexy. But it helps that there are more roles for sexy than talented.
Keira Knightley is traditionally sexy and rather talented but I think she's pickier about the roles she takes on.
I need more roles for women in general anyway because I think Carey Mulligan is a goddess but there probably aren't a ton of roles for her either. And with Lupita being black and a woman and not a very young woman either, I'm afraid we won't see her very much at all.
I'm so happy to see Rosamund Pike getting roles. I think she's gorgeous and talented too.
all of this stuff about who can play what characters has brought out my old school TV geekiness with the "debate" about Starbuck.
No, not the coffee, that's Starbucks.
Starbuck. From Battlestar Galactica.
In the 70's, this was Starbuck.
In the more-recent reboot of Battlestar Galactica, this was Starbuck:
They also changed Boomer from a (Black) man to a (Asian) woman. --->
...and made the president a woman, to boot; giving Mary McDonnell an amazing role to work with, one that defied conventions in many ways.
And the boys, they did complain. Hoo! It was all about how the show's characters had been "castrated". Even and especially the actor who originally played Starbuck.
and yet, it added a level of depth to the show, to the characters' relationships, that wasn't in the original. (Well, along with a lot that wasn't in the original, including character development, actual plotting, and good writing)...
I'm wondering if TV can do what movies haven't, in terms of giving "older" women actresses meaty roles to chew on...it seems like TV is being seen more and more as a serious medium. Is that possible? Is it happening? Would somebody like Jane Lynch even have achieved stardom if it was about fitting in to "box office" expectations?
I'm wondering if TV can do what movies haven't, in terms of giving "older" women actresses meaty roles to chew on...it seems like TV is being seen more and more as a serious medium. Is that possible? Is it happening? Would somebody like Jane Lynch even have achieved stardom if it was about fitting in to "box office" expectations?
It already does. I don't know about Jane Lynch but I do think if you look at cable television in the last five years, you do see better roles outside of the standard.
I mentioned Veep already but there's also The Good Wife, Scandal, House of Cards, and even The Walking Dead. Now TWD sucks for women, truth but there is a far wider range of color on that show than one gets in the same genre of films. And from what I understand, because I haven't watched, AHS is giving a ton of air time to women.
Part of it is that no television show expects to capture a majority share of the entire population. They merely want to catch a majority of a certain demographic. So if they can get half of women in the 18-35 bracket to watch a television show, tweet about it, post FB updates, and buy the season when it comes out on DVD, airs on netflix, or is available to stream on iTunes, then they've succeeded.
Jack Crawford and his wife are black and Freddie Lowndes, the Tattler reporter is a woman. There are probably some other adaptations but I haven't watched the series as closely as my husband has.
I'm wondering if TV can do what movies haven't, in terms of giving "older" women actresses meaty roles to chew on...it seems like TV is being seen more and more as a serious medium. Is that possible? Is it happening? Would somebody like Jane Lynch even have achieved stardom if it was about fitting in to "box office" expectations?
It already does. I don't know about Jane Lynch but I do think if you look at cable television in the last five years, you do see better roles outside of the standard.
I mentioned Veep already but there's also The Good Wife, Scandal, House of Cards, and even The Walking Dead. Now TWD sucks for women, truth but there is a far wider range of color on that show than one gets in the same genre of films. And from what I understand, because I haven't watched, AHS is giving a ton of air time to women.
Part of it is that no television show expects to capture a majority share of the entire population. They merely want to catch a majority of a certain demographic. So if they can get half of women in the 18-35 bracket to watch a television show, tweet about it, post FB updates, and buy the season when it comes out on DVD, airs on netflix, or is available to stream on iTunes, then they've succeeded.
I think TV is better overall for women and for people of color because you get multiple shots at it. It's not one and done. You can add and take away characters over the course of seasons.
The reason Dann Florek left original L&O is because Dick Wolf was told there were too many penises in the cast. So they hired S. Epatha Merkerson.
And as much as I hate the sexism in West Wing, it did provide a lot of opportunities for women in guest roles. Anna Deavere Smith as the National Security Advisor. A very young Amy Adams guest stars in one episode. Marlee Matlin has a recurring role. Mary Louise-Parker. Laura Dern. Kristen Chenoweth. There were more men than women who guest starred, for sure, but there were a lot of opportunities there.
Heck, even superwhite Friends was able to add some diversity by having Ross date Aisha Tyler for a while.
You can have more characters because you have more storylines going on.
I have nothing really to add to this but as I was reading this thread I was thinking about the 80s Tom Clancy movies. I remember that whoever played the wife (Anne Archer, btw) seemed of a similar age to Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan. So I went to look at their ages and they were 3-4 years apart, which seems reasonable and I think fits in with the book timelines. They looked like they matched, age wise. I feel like that used to be more common? I could be talking out of my ass though, but I'm remembering all these movies and couples where the actor and actress seemed to be near each other's age. That seems rare now...
I have nothing really to add to this but as I was reading this thread I was thinking about the 80s Tom Clancy movies. I remember that whoever played the wife (Anne Archer, btw) seemed of a similar age to Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan. So I went to look at their ages and they were 3-4 years apart, which seems reasonable and I think fits in with the book timelines. They looked like they matched, age wise. I feel like that used to be more common? I could be talking out of my ass though, but I'm remembering all these movies and couples where the actor and actress seemed to be near each other's age. That seems rare now...
Another random about those movies is that I love that Anne Archer was actually of an age to make her profession (eye surgeon) realistic. I hate hate hate when movies give us 23 year old surgeons and nuclear physicists with PhDs.
I have nothing really to add to this but as I was reading this thread I was thinking about the 80s Tom Clancy movies. I remember that whoever played the wife (Anne Archer, btw) seemed of a similar age to Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan. So I went to look at their ages and they were 3-4 years apart, which seems reasonable and I think fits in with the book timelines. They looked like they matched, age wise. I feel like that used to be more common? I could be talking out of my ass though, but I'm remembering all these movies and couples where the actor and actress seemed to be near each other's age. That seems rare now...
Another random about those movies is that I love that Anne Archer was actually of an age to make her profession (eye surgeon) realistic. I hate hate hate when movies give us 23 year old surgeons and nuclear physicists with PhDs.Â
I think the casting in those movies was really good. When they tried to reboot the franchise with Ben Affleck it just didn't work for me because that book really focuses on how middle aged Jack is. The newest one was a whole new story line though - it worked a little better for me as a reboot because of that.
Also, I'm pretty sure it was established like back in 2003 or something that Russell Crowe was a sexist jerk so I'm really not sure why people are indignant on his behalf.
Or is just another illustration of how behind in pop culture some of you are? lol
Earlier I read the first page and typed out several responses but kept deleting and ultimately decided not to post because "this is not news" sounded more combative than I really intended.
This is one of the reasons I love Sleepy Hollow. There are 3 strong female leads, and the actresses are the same general age as the lead actor. Plus half of the main cast is black.
It's sad that this has always struck me as unusual but it is really positive.
Post by Velar Fricative on Jan 6, 2015 7:32:30 GMT -5
So I've read then whole thread now and all I can think is where has Hillary Swank been? Two Oscars and can kick ass but she must be 40+ then if she's not getting any roles...
So I've read then whole thread now and all I can think is where has Hillary Swank been? Two Oscars and can kick ass but she must be 40+ then if she's not getting any roles...
But she is getting roles. She was in a movie in 2014 called Homesman. It's an indie film and she received awards for her role in it. She has a series for Starz coming out this year called the One Percent.
It think there are plenty of roles for actresses over 40 and I think a lot of the big names are taking the roles they want. It's not always about the block busters and huge money makers. Actors are artists. They're interested in pursuing their craft. Some of these actresses are choosing stage work or production or directing.
Russel Crowe's comments where pretty sexist, but that doesn't mean there aren't good roles for women and those women aren't taking them.
One of the problems here, that he refuses to acknowledge, is that there aren't any roles for women over 40 where they're allowed to be anything but the mother/grandmother/wacky neighbor. They don't have to be the fucking action hero, they don't have to be the ingenue, but it might be nice for them to actually have sex and enjoy it.
FFS.
I haven't seen a whole lot of movies lately, but the last time I remember a full-on 40+ woman as a sexy sexy hot bodied female lead was way the fuck back in 1999, when Rene Russo played opposite Pierce Brosnan in The Thomas Crown Affair:
And when was the last time you saw Rene Russo in a lead role or, well, anything??
She's in the Nightcrawler opposite Jake Gyllanhaal. She plays a TV news director. Not a mother/grandmother/wacky neighbor.
But she is getting roles. She was in a movie in 2014 called Homesman. It's an indie film and she received awards for her role in it. She has a series for Starz coming out this year called the One Percent.
It think there are plenty of roles for actresses over 40 and I think a lot of the big names are taking the roles they want. It's not always about the block busters and huge money makers. Actors are artists. They're interested in pursuing their craft. Some of these actresses are choosing stage work or production or directing.
Russel Crowe's comments where pretty sexist, but that doesn't mean there aren't good roles for women and those women aren't taking them.
Google "Gender Inequality in Film USC". I'm on my phone so I can't link the two papers.
Perhaps not surprisingly, whether or not there are "plenty" of good roles for women over the age of 40 has actually been studied. There are not plenty of good roles.
OK, what is the argument in this thread? That actresses of a certain age can't get roles? Well that's not true. They can and are. However, they are the actresses who have been extremely successful in their careers. They are big names in their own rights. They are not the struggling 40+ actress who has only played the mother/grandmother/wacky neighbor.
Or are we talking about gender inequality in film? In that case, yes women are severely underrepresented and limited by the roles available to them.
So I've read then whole thread now and all I can think is where has Hillary Swank been? Two Oscars and can kick ass but she must be 40+ then if she's not getting any roles...
But she is getting roles. She was in a movie in 2014 called Homesman. It's an indie film and she received awards for her role in it. She has a series for Starz coming out this year called the One Percent.
It think there are plenty of roles for actresses over 40 and I think a lot of the big names are taking the roles they want. It's not always about the block busters and huge money makers. Actors are artists. They're interested in pursuing their craft. Some of these actresses are choosing stage work or production or directing.
Russel Crowe's comments where pretty sexist, but that doesn't mean there aren't good roles for women and those women aren't taking them.
Thank you. Admittedly I'm not a film buff so if I don't see actors in popular films, I don't really "see" them. I like Swank though, I'm glad to hear she's doing good film work still.
So I've read then whole thread now and all I can think is where has Hillary Swank been? Two Oscars and can kick ass but she must be 40+ then if she's not getting any roles...
But she is getting roles. She was in a movie in 2014 called Homesman. It's an indie film and she received awards for her role in it. She has a series for Starz coming out this year called the One Percent.
It think there are plenty of roles for actresses over 40 and I think a lot of the big names are taking the roles they want. It's not always about the block busters and huge money makers. Actors are artists. They're interested in pursuing their craft. Some of these actresses are choosing stage work or production or directing.
Russel Crowe's comments where pretty sexist, but that doesn't mean there aren't good roles for women and those women aren't taking them.
This is perilously close to "but women don't *want* to be CEOs and engineers! That's why they're underrepresented!"