All that said I believe this situation can be Olivia Poped to the point where people who are inclined to support her will support her. But the people who always felt the Clinton's played a little below the surface will have their concerns slightly more verrified.
I guess what I don't understand about this is why her coworkers didn't say anything about it. Even in my super informal, breezy 6-person company, if I were sending out emails to them for YEARS from my gmail account, I am 100% positive someone would've asked or made a comment about it, ya know?
I am not saying she isn't responsible for the problem - she definitely is - but why were all her coworkers silent on this matter?
Because she's the Secretary of State and one of the most powerful people in the country, possibly the world. Who's going to give her a hard time about it???
....Mrs. Clinton is not the first government official — or first secretary of state — to use a personal email account on which to conduct official business. But her exclusive use of her private email, for all of her work, appears unusual, Mr. Baron said. The use of private email accounts is supposed to be limited to emergencies, experts said, such as when an agency’s computer server is not working.
.... And others who, like Mrs. Clinton, are eyeing a candidacy for the White House are stressing a very different approach. Jeb Bush, who is seeking the Republican nomination for president, released a trove of emails in December from his eight years as governor of Florida.
.... Mrs. Clinton’s successor, Secretary of State John Kerry, has used a government email account since taking over the role, and his correspondence is being preserved contemporaneously as part of State Department records, according to his aides.
Before the current regulations went into effect, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, who served from 2001 to 2005, used personal email to communicate with American officials and ambassadors and foreign leaders.
Last October, the State Department, as part of the effort to improve its record keeping, asked all previous secretaries of state dating back to Madeleine K. Albright to provide it with any records, like emails, from their time in office for preservation.
“These steps include regularly archiving all of Secretary Kerry’s emails to ensure that we are capturing all federal records,” said a department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki.
Okay, I'm troubled by this. And I know I'm 4+ pages late to the game, but I think it is worth noting four things...
1. She only used her personal email, not a government email - BAD IDEA and seriously egotistical b/c of her domain name - I mean, that is what looks just as bad as shirking the governmental email IMO.
2. Jeb Bush was anticipating this ish... the Benghazi committee figured something out this fall, the State Department reacted by asking all past Secretaries of State back to Albright to release any personal emails in Oct 2014, and then Jeb preemptively released his emails in December, even though he has nothing to do with the State Department. That was strategic stuff and sounds like something a Cheney-type advisor would suggest. ^o)
3. But let's keep this in perspective, the State Department just asked for all the archived emails in October 2014 b/c they realized they had not been archiving these and HRC already handed over 50k emails - while paying her own staff to go through them. Yes, that could be shady or most of the emails from 4 years?! However, to further keep it in perspective, Colin Powell also used his personal email (served just 4 years prior to HRC) and we don't know if he has turned over 50k or how many emails. Maybe that's a good thing to compare to see if he has WAY less or WAY more than 50k before freaking out.
4. Email security aside, it doesn't sound like her using the personal account was for secrecy, but maybe more for ego and to get her domain hits b/c she was thinking ahead to moving on to the presidency. It was ambition that got ahead of her camp's (and the State Department's) understanding of technology and Jeb's camp is on-the-ball to make this look devious, when we just don't know enough yet.
Look, out of all the possible reasons for all of this, the absolutely least likely credible believable reason is that HIllary didn't know any better.
Not.Possible.
You cannot have it both ways. There is no way HRC is more than qualified for the highest position in the land but too dim to know the importance of archiving or the security of a government email account.
None.
And for the record, I do believe she's qualified to be president. I also agree with HeyJude that there is no way her office was too terrified to mention it. They told her. She said she didn't give a fuck for reasons and they let it go from there. But none of the reasons involved not understanding why or how.
All that said I believe this situation can be Olivia Poped to the point where people who are inclined to support her will support her. But the people who always felt the Clinton's played a little below the surface will have their concerns slightly more verrified.
(Unfortunately I'm in both camps)
I do think the Clintons have always played a little bit below the surface but I think most politicians do at some point.
That being said, if I don't like my other options, I'd still vote for her. Lord knows how well transparency has worked out for this country so far.
Okay, I'm troubled by this. And I know I'm 4+ pages late to the game, but I think it is worth noting four things...
1. She only used her personal email, not a government email - BAD IDEA and seriously egotistical b/c of her domain name - I mean, that is what looks just as bad as shirking the governmental email IMO.
4. Email security aside, it doesn't sound like her using the personal account was for secrecy, but maybe more for ego and to get her domain hits b/c she was thinking ahead to moving on to the presidency. It was ambition that got ahead of her camp's (and the State Department's) understanding of technology and Jeb's camp is on-the-ball to make this look devious, when we just don't know enough yet.
These two don't make sense to me. Her domain name was for her ego and to get domain name hits? If so, she needed to have worked with her marketing people for a better domain name.
I think the idea that HRC doesnt get the importance of emails or recordkeeping or what-have-you is both laughable and insulting (to HRC). Of course she understands the importance, thats why this is such an issue. The actual use of the personal email is an issue clearly, but its the fact that she knew how important it was to archive correctly, and so on, that makes this seem so shady.
When Kerry ran, I voted for him because he was running against Bush, who I already didn't like as a politician. He would not have been my first choice because he is a rule follower. He's a very by the book guy as evidenced by him following the rules now. I myself am a very by the book person, so I realized that in government you need to have someone who bends at least once in a while to get things done. Otherwise you'd be mired in meetings forever and ever and ever as you try to move things through the correct channels (this happens to me at work).
HRC, on the other hand, knows how to get things done. Unfortunately it's through things like this. I'm wondering if it was easier for people to communicate with her because they knew it wasn't being automatically archived. That people were more candid with their dealings since they knew her email could be scrubbed. On the other hand, (as has been said) it's just another instance of the Clinton's being shady.
So, do we really want the politicians to play by the book, or do we want them to have the ability to get things done. Because in reality, those two things do not go hand in hand.
This sounds like the most likely of the scenarios. My guess is that it was squashed because she decided she wanted to use her personal email. There is a lot of sheltering that goes on so as to not piss off high level VIPs. IT girl or whoever came in, suggested that she set up her email. Her secretary asks her about it, and Clinton says she wants to use her email for whatever reason. Secretary tells IT guy no fucking way cause he is certainly not telling his boss that she can't have her email the way she wants. IT guy pushes back a bit, secretary says no again, and IT guy drops it cause she has better shit to do then argue with the new SOS and get yelled at by his bosses for pissing off a higher up.
It's still a dumb move on her part, but I can easily envision a scenario where Clinton wasn't really paying attention to the how's or why's or using a particular email, and whether that email could be set up to archive correctly or be encrypted or whatever the hell else was needed.
To coin HBC: no no no no no.
You don't get this high up in politics by having syncophants who are afraid of your shadow. HRC has good people working for her who have been with her since the WH. She has trusted advisors and people who are paid to keep her out of hot water. I refuse to believe this is a case of people too afraid of the VIP to keep her out of legal trouble or worse out of the WH. THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE "PEOPLE" IN POLITICS.
Now - I will say this - someone could have told her that this is a bad idea, and she still ignored it. Trust, I've seen this plenty of times. Namely with Former Mayor Baby Daddy. I know his PR person wasn't a Yes Woman. No way in hell that she was, but it was always pretty apparent to me that he never listened to anyone.
What I don't know is how HRC treated her staff, because every so often, there is that one official who is like "DA FUQ YOU THINK YOU ARE. I KNOW EVERYTHING SO NO ONE ASKED YOU FOR YOUR ADVICE." Those folks have staff who hate them and won't do extra for them, so their bosses land in hot water continually. And everyone knows that they are CRAY and the staff doesn't suffer for the sins of their boss.
Okay, I'm troubled by this. And I know I'm 4+ pages late to the game, but I think it is worth noting four things...
1. She only used her personal email, not a government email - BAD IDEA and seriously egotistical b/c of her domain name - I mean, that is what looks just as bad as shirking the governmental email IMO.
4. Email security aside, it doesn't sound like her using the personal account was for secrecy, but maybe more for ego and to get her domain hits b/c she was thinking ahead to moving on to the presidency. It was ambition that got ahead of her camp's (and the State Department's) understanding of technology and Jeb's camp is on-the-ball to make this look devious, when we just don't know enough yet.
These two don't make sense to me. Her domain name was for her ego and to get domain name hits? If so, she needed to have worked with her marketing people for a better domain name.
I think I just have this feeling that a lot of the political elite seem to be above the rest of us. Using clintonemail.com domain when a paid employee of the State Department makes me think that she was distancing herself from the State Department. Maybe that isn't the case since it sounds like Powell did the same.
This still doesn't mean that she wanted secrecy by using a personal email, which is what I'm feeling from the criticism on this from the right. More that she was branding herself as a world leader - not just a part of the State Department, but her own world leader in and of herself by keeping herself separate from the .gov stuff. It's just more feeling, I have no proof of this, but that domain feels like branding.
This would be my first concern--if all classified e-mails were on JWICS and it's just unclassified e-mails she used this account for vs ALL e-mail, then security isn't as much of an issue. But I can't think of any valid reason for her to have done this for unclassified e-mail--and it's the first "story" about her that has raised my eyebrow.
I'm not buying that her personal email account/system was hosted on this server. Otherwise her staffers wouldn't be able to sift through emails and deliver what they deem relevant back to State. If it was all conducted on this server, there would be no issue with archiving because all of the email would have been on a gov server already.
Her personal email account/system can not be hosted on JWICS.
As Sec of State, she should have two different work e-mail accounts--a classified one and a non-classified one. What I am saying that I'm less concerned/outraged/etc if she did use the govt e-mail on JWICS for anything classified and her personal e-mail for unclassified communications. And frankly, I'd expect 90%+ of her work e-mails to be classified vs unclassified.
If she used a personal e-mail for classified e-mails, she should be in jail.
If she used a personal e-mail for unclassified work e-mails only then it's still a huge No-No and absolutely wrong, but at a lower level. And there is absolutely no way she did not know she was volating Federal law by doing so.
When Kerry ran, I voted for him because he was running against Bush, who I already didn't like as a politician. He would not have been my first choice because he is a rule follower. He's a very by the book guy as evidenced by him following the rules now. I myself am a very by the book person, so I realized that in government you need to have someone who bends at least once in a while to get things done. Otherwise you'd be mired in meetings forever and ever and ever as you try to move things through the correct channels (this happens to me at work).
HRC, on the other hand, knows how to get things done. Unfortunately it's through things like this. I'm wondering if it was easier for people to communicate with her because they knew it wasn't being automatically archived. That people were more candid with their dealings since they knew her email could be scrubbed. On the other hand, (as has been said) it's just another instance of the Clinton's being shady.
So, do we really want the politicians to play by the book, or do we want them to have the ability to get things done. Because in reality, those two things do not go hand in hand.
This is what my Grad Professor always said about how things work in Govt. And then he'd add "We think we want to know the truth about how govt works in certain cases, but we really don't. You need to ask yourself if you are comfortable with knowing all the dark secrets of gov't, because I will tell you that I do not."
And I will totally say that having been in gov't for so long, it's absolutely true. There is Administrative Theory and then there is Administrative Practice/Reality which doesn't always coincide. When I see local people rise up on the scene (thinking one person in particular), I know how that person got there because I may have caught a glimpse and know that there is more to it. All I'll say is "interesting" and keep it moving. Then I'll discreetly tell people to watch themselves and limit involvement because you don't want to be anywhere near that shit storm when it blows.
I want them to play by the rules. If I have to choose. Definitely. Rules. All the time.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm cool with someone who picks and chooses what rules to follow, particularly when I'm not sure I trust their judgement and it always manages to distract from the overall point.
That being said, I might still vote for HRC depending on who she is running against. I would just know that every year to 18 months there will be some new distraction simply because she does what she wants, fuck the consequences. I mean sometimes that works for people and sometimes it doesn't. For the Clintons, it's about 50/50.
Post by Velvetshady on Mar 3, 2015 11:59:04 GMT -5
And this all goes back to my opinion (although I know it's unconstitutional) that before anyone runs for an elected position at the Federal level or goes forward for confirmation as a Sec. at the Federal level, they should have to cleared and trained for a Top Secret clearance.
It's still a dumb move on her part, but I can easily envision a scenario where Clinton wasn't really paying attention to the how's or why's or using a particular email, and whether that email could be set up to archive correctly or be encrypted or whatever the hell else was needed.
No, no no no no no and no.
Look, I can believe that people in her office had no success with getting her to change, didn't push hard enough because they didn't want to be fired, and let it go far to early and far too easily, fine.
But I do not, cannot, and flat out refuse to believe Hillary didn't get/use government email simply because she didn't understand how important it was or the implications.
Hillary is not new to the world, was not new to the world when she took the position. The only viable explanation here is that for some reason or a variety of reasons, Hillary decided deliberately to use her personal email, in some combination of fuck the world and because of the world.
Now I would need to hear her excuses for why to assign percentages but there is definitely a blend of shady and I do wut I want here.
I've had to explain some basic computer stuff to the guy who is now the chairman of the FCC, so I'm going to disagree with your assessment there. Just because someone is high up does not mean that they are paying attention to that sort of thing, and in my experience makes it more likely that they will fly in the face of something like that anyway because they are used to the whole world moving around to accommodate their wishes. "You can't do that" is just not something you say, the attitude is very much "this is what I want, so make it happen".
The BlackBerry thing is weird, because the whole point of the BB network is that it is touted as highly secure. That is why the government has used them for all of these years. I left there two years ago and we were barely holding on by the skin of our teeth, but the government contracts were what kept us going.
My understanding is that she used this email address but it was through an extremely secure network, so it is not the same as her just sending a gmail from home. I find it hard to believe that someone that high up did not have IT come and install super secret routers/networks in her home/office/phone. I'm ASSuming that she was just using the clintonemail.com or whatever, but still sending everything and communicating behind the secure network/firewall.
I've worked in-house for 8 years at telecom/networks companies, and I don't think the security issue is as big of a deal as some of the articles are portraying. IMO, it is more of an issue of separating out what is personal and what is work-related, and there could certainly be some transparency issues there.
1. My first thought was she probably conducts 90% of her official business on a system such as JWICS so I'm glad that point was brought up. I have coworkers who work in SCIFs that don't bother to get a NIPR email.
2. My second thought was - the personal email likely helped her in foreign diplomacy. As someone who has worked with foreign nationals, there's a wide and vast distrust of being "on record" with Americans, especially via fast/casual communication. Correspondence was usually done through ultra formal written letters/memos or in person or, yes, through personal means. Doesn't make it right, I know.
3. My third thought was Oh fuck Hillary, you've done it now. Even if she hands over everything that is unclassified, she still looks shady as hell. Setting it all up on day one...SMH.
I'm in an IT environment right now where we have a ton of places that are secure, shared, regulated, etc., etc. - yet my team all jumped to google hangouts and google drive to work with each other cuz it's faster and we can actually work when the connections and servers go down. Right now, agility in technology far out paces security. Hence, the whole rise in cybersecurity.
It only takes one workplace server outage where you REALLY NEED TO DO STUFF to make you jump to alternatives.
If you really wanted to cover stuff up, you go off technology. You pull a Snowden and put the phones in the fridge. You talk in person. This isn't a new idea.
To me, having an unofficial email where you think you are gonna hide your scandals is sorta like robbing a bank and cover your face but not your car's license plate. And then you use your credit cards. And your EZPass.
I'm not excusing the situation, saying its ok, or saying she's not covering up some grade A bullshit. I'm saying that going to "unofficial technology" means very little by itself to people who are used to the official ways being shitty.
1. My first thought was she probably conducts 90% of her official business on a system such as JWICS so I'm glad that point was brought up. I have coworkers who work in SCIFs that don't bother to get a NIPR email.
2. My second thought was - the personal email likely helped her in foreign diplomacy. As someone who has worked with foreign nationals, there's a wide and vast distrust of being "on record" with Americans, especially via fast/casual communication. Correspondence was usually done through ultra formal written letters/memos or in person or, yes, through personal means. Doesn't make it right, I know.
3. My third thought was Oh fuck Hillary, you've done it now. Even if she hands over everything that is unclassified, she still looks shady as hell. Setting it all up on day one...SMH.
This number two could be very valid; and is a good point. Thanks for chiming in with this!
Now, it might backfire because - what if it's tied to Benghazi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've had to explain some basic computer stuff to the guy who is now the chairman of the FCC, so I'm going to disagree with your assessment there. Just because someone is high up does not mean that they are paying attention to that sort of thing, and in my experience makes it more likely that they will fly in the face of something like that anyway because they are used to the whole world moving around to accommodate their wishes. "You can't do that" is just not something you say, the attitude is very much "this is what I want, so make it happen".
You're talking about how. I'm talking about why.
There is no way that when someone said uhm, we have to archive that shit and personal email isn't secure, Hillary Rodham Fucking Clinton was all, uhm, I don't get it.
ETA: I do think it's possible and in fact, incredibly likely that her answer to all of that was I know but . . . I know but Angela Merkel doesn't like sending shit via government email. I know but I don't want a record of this conversation. I know but this isn't really government work right here. I know but this is the client I've always used, it's actually pretty secure, and I'm more comfortable with it. I know but who the fuck cares, I do wut I want.
1. My first thought was she probably conducts 90% of her official business on a system such as JWICS so I'm glad that point was brought up. I have coworkers who work in SCIFs that don't bother to get a NIPR email.
2. My second thought was - the personal email likely helped her in foreign diplomacy. As someone who has worked with foreign nationals, there's a wide and vast distrust of being "on record" with Americans, especially via fast/casual communication. Correspondence was usually done through ultra formal written letters/memos or in person or, yes, through personal means. Doesn't make it right, I know.
3. My third thought was Oh fuck Hillary, you've done it now. Even if she hands over everything that is unclassified, she still looks shady as hell. Setting it all up on day one...SMH.
This is the first thing I have read in this thread that makes any sense about WHY she would do this. The optics of the situation are just BAD, but I can definitely see how this would be true, especially since so much of international diplomacy is about the personal relationship.
2. My second thought was - the personal email likely helped her in foreign diplomacy. As someone who has worked with foreign nationals, there's a wide and vast distrust of being "on record" with Americans, especially via fast/casual communication. Correspondence was usually done through ultra formal written letters/memos or in person or, yes, through personal means. Doesn't make it right, I know.
This is where I landed once I had worked through everything.
If I had to make a guess as to motive it would probably be she wanted to campaign and fundraise and work on her future plans from the same account. Which may be laziness or may be something else slightly more calculated. I'm pulling this all out of my ass. And this is my "the clintons are shady" side shining through.
It's still a dumb move on her part, but I can easily envision a scenario where Clinton wasn't really paying attention to the how's or why's or using a particular email, and whether that email could be set up to archive correctly or be encrypted or whatever the hell else was needed.
No, no no no no no and no.
Look, I can believe that people in her office had no success with getting her to change, didn't push hard enough because they didn't want to be fired, and let it go far to early and far too easily, fine.
But I do not, cannot, and flat out refuse to believe Hillary didn't get/use government email simply because she didn't understand how important it was or the implications.
Hillary is not new to the world, was not new to the world when she took the position. The only viable explanation here is that for some reason or a variety of reasons, Hillary decided deliberately to use her personal email, in some combination of fuck the world and because of the world.
Now I would need to hear her excuses for why to assign percentages but there is definitely a blend of shady and I do wut I want here.
And not brand new to government regulations regarding this type of thing. Records are important and it's not like she didn't/doesn't know this, so any reason she could give isn't going to seem at all plausible to me, I think.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
1. My first thought was she probably conducts 90% of her official business on a system such as JWICS so I'm glad that point was brought up. I have coworkers who work in SCIFs that don't bother to get a NIPR email.
2. My second thought was - the personal email likely helped her in foreign diplomacy. As someone who has worked with foreign nationals, there's a wide and vast distrust of being "on record" with Americans, especially via fast/casual communication. Correspondence was usually done through ultra formal written letters/memos or in person or, yes, through personal means. Doesn't make it right, I know.
3. My third thought was Oh fuck Hillary, you've done it now. Even if she hands over everything that is unclassified, she still looks shady as hell. Setting it all up on day one...SMH.
This number two could be very valid; and is a good point. Thanks for chiming in with this!
Now, it might backfire because - what if it's tied to Benghazi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If she has anything with any real information on Benghazi in her personal e-mail beyond ("I wish these dicks would get off my ass about Benghazi") then she should be in massive trouble. If they find one tiny piece of classified information in her personal e-mail account, she technically has committed treason.
1. If she wanted to do shady shit, she would have done it regardless of whether she was using the state.gov email address. People can set up more than one email address if they want. The possibility that this was going on would have always been there, so this just gives people evidence to believe what they already believed.
2. There's a sender and receiver on these emails, and likely staff copied on them. What percentage of these emails are exchanged with federally owned email addresses? I'd wager to guess that most, and probably likely nearly all, are actually archived under other people's accounts. I imagine that this will be part of the explanation.
3. I'd venture to guess many people in politics are doing official work through unofficial channels (see #1, and pixy0stix's pony about getting things done versus following the rules), so while some people will yell and scream for a while, a lot of people are going to have to be careful. Colin Powell did it. Sarah Palin did it. Many in the Bush DOJ were using RNC email addresses. I'm bringing up these examples not to be all "they did it too" but to point out that this is probably incredibly widespread in Washington and few people are going to have a clean enough record on this point to really take her to task on it.