Andrewsgirl or others, can we discuss kindy at 4 more?

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Apr 13, 2015 11:28:42 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

I am saying your list of schools that "don't start" until certain ages is both misleading and, in some cases, incorrect entirely.  Moreover, you don't know what the quality of these preschool-level educations are or how they compare to US standards of kindergarten; they may be more play-based, or they may be more academic.  I can tell you with certainty that French schools are entirely academic, from maternelle onward.  To nonchalantly claim that "preschool" is a different animal across the board is a little silly.  And grossly incorrect. 

Info on Finland play based programs:

www.weareteachers.com/blogs/post/2015/04/01/finland-s-a-schools

Also if you look at the finlands board Of education there's not a single academic goal for preschool. They are very play based and learning to interact with others.

[andrewsgal]

I fucking love Finland

[andrewsgal]

Apr 13, 2015 11:45:37 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 13, 2015 11:44:03 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Bless your heart.

Remember when we were saying the board was boring now that the crazies don't drive by? I take it back.

I'm not the one freaking out here.  I apologize, though; I just couldn't resist.  lol. 

Eh at least you keep it interesting.

[game blouses]

Apr 13, 2015 11:37:44 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Apr 13, 2015 10:54:33 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Except that initially this post seemed to indicate that you all found studies lacking and favored anecdotal evidence; then you said that nursecramer had no experience, after which she outlined her credentials in this area, and then was subsequently shouted down as "playing the teacher card"; now we're back to "she has no experience."  And now that someone has found some studies, suddenly statistical evidence is of utmost importance. 

It's all over the place here and there is no consistent viewpoint. 

Just to be clear, she has no credentials in the area. Middle/high school and higher ed are COMPLETELY different than ECE. Andplusalso, no one favored anecdotal evidence. I gave my opinion as a professional in the area of ECE based on years of research and experience. That is not anecdotal. Andplusalsofurthermore, no one "suddenly found" some studies. They always existed, I found about a half dozen of them last night. But there is absolutely no sense in trying to have a debate about someone's professional opinion on the appropriateness of instruction for specific ages when that person has absolutely no education or experience in that field. Anyone can find any number of studies to back up any point (which has all ready been pointed out).

I should just walk away but I really can't stand it when someone who has no fucking clue what they're talking about wants to tell me how I do my job badly and they know so much more because I FOUND A STUDY THAT SAYS YOU ARE JUST CONFUSED AND USE POOR TEACHING METHODS THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY SNOWFLAKE HE COULD DO CALCULUS IF YOU WERE A BETTER TEACHER!!1!11!

I have been following this thread with interest and tried to stay out, but I have to clarify that being a secondary level teacher does not outright disqualify you from weighing in on ECE discussions. ECE education is necessary for all teachers, not just elementary teachers. Any of the "But you don't deal with kindergartners every day like me!" claims really are anecdotal.

Also, NC's experience as a middle and high school teacher is extremely relevant when one of the arguments here has been how traumatizing it would be for a 17 year old to be a high school graduate. If everyone is so concerned about how these young kindergartners will age up, wouldn't you want to hear from a teacher who has seen these kids as young adults? If a high school teacher came in and said "My 18 year old seniors are fine, but MAN my 17 year old seniors are struggling," I think people here would find merit in that argument.

[rosesandpetals]

I don't see WTF this has to do with the price of cheese. French kids go to school at whatever age therefore a 4 yo can succeed in an American kindergarten classroom just as well as s/he could if s/he waited another year?

[rosesandpetals]

Apr 13, 2015 11:52:36 GMT -5 game blouses said:

Apr 13, 2015 11:37:44 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Just to be clear, she has no credentials in the area. Middle/high school and higher ed are COMPLETELY different than ECE. Andplusalso, no one favored anecdotal evidence. I gave my opinion as a professional in the area of ECE based on years of research and experience. That is not anecdotal. Andplusalsofurthermore, no one "suddenly found" some studies. They always existed, I found about a half dozen of them last night. But there is absolutely no sense in trying to have a debate about someone's professional opinion on the appropriateness of instruction for specific ages when that person has absolutely no education or experience in that field. Anyone can find any number of studies to back up any point (which has all ready been pointed out).

I should just walk away but I really can't stand it when someone who has no fucking clue what they're talking about wants to tell me how I do my job badly and they know so much more because I FOUND A STUDY THAT SAYS YOU ARE JUST CONFUSED AND USE POOR TEACHING METHODS THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH MY SNOWFLAKE HE COULD DO CALCULUS IF YOU WERE A BETTER TEACHER!!1!11!

I have been following this thread with interest and tried to stay out, but I have to clarify that being a secondary level teacher does not outright disqualify you from weighing in on ECE discussions. ECE education is necessary for all teachers, not just elementary teachers. Any of the "But you don't deal with kindergartners every day like me!" claims really are anecdotal.

Also, NC's experience as a middle and high school teacher is extremely relevant when one of the arguments here has been how traumatizing it would be for a 17 year old to be a high school graduate. If everyone is so concerned about how these young kindergartners will age up, wouldn't you want to hear from a teacher who has seen these kids as young adults? If a high school teacher came in and said "My 18 year old seniors are fine, but MAN my 17 year old seniors are struggling," I think people here would find merit in that argument.

It isn't that she doesn't work with them every day, it's that her education (presumably, if she's teaching in middle/high school) is not in ECE and therefore she doesn't have the background to get a full, deep understanding of the stages of child development. On top of that, she has no experience from which to draw. Her argument is based entirely on studies that criticize practices she has never seen implemented or implemented herself.

The part about a 17 yo graduating and a 10 yo in middle school were side points added on as after thoughts. They weren't the main point being made. The main point is that the expectations placed on kindergarteners are inappropriate for 4 yos who do not yet have the emotional or social development to be as successful in  a classroom as they would be if they waited another year. This is like a pediatrician telling a neurologist he's wrong because of a couple studies he read: yeah, they're both doctors but the area in which you work is important.

[rosesandpetals]

Apr 13, 2015 11:54:29 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Apr 13, 2015 11:44:03 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Bless your heart.

Remember when we were saying the board was boring now that the crazies don't drive by? I take it back.

Oh, they are here, it's the sane ones who drive by. 

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Seriously, I don't mind discussion. Do you come here just to snipe and point out spelling errors?

[game blouses]

Apr 13, 2015 11:58:43 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

Apr 13, 2015 11:52:36 GMT -5 game blouses said:

I have been following this thread with interest and tried to stay out, but I have to clarify that being a secondary level teacher does not outright disqualify you from weighing in on ECE discussions. ECE education is necessary for all teachers, not just elementary teachers. Any of the "But you don't deal with kindergartners every day like me!" claims really are anecdotal.

Also, NC's experience as a middle and high school teacher is extremely relevant when one of the arguments here has been how traumatizing it would be for a 17 year old to be a high school graduate. If everyone is so concerned about how these young kindergartners will age up, wouldn't you want to hear from a teacher who has seen these kids as young adults? If a high school teacher came in and said "My 18 year old seniors are fine, but MAN my 17 year old seniors are struggling," I think people here would find merit in that argument.

It isn't that she doesn't work with them every day, it's that her education (presumably, if she's teaching in middle/high school) is not in ECE and therefore she doesn't have the background to get a full, deep understanding of the stages of child development. On top of that, she has no experience from which to draw. Her argument is based entirely on studies that criticize practices she has never seen implemented or implemented herself.

The part about a 17 yo graduating and a 10 yo in middle school were side points added on as after thoughts. They weren't the main point being made. The main point is that the expectations placed on kindergarteners are inappropriate for 4 yos who do not yet have the emotional or social development to be as successful in  a classroom as they would be if they waited another year. This is like a pediatrician telling a neurologist he's wrong because of a couple studies he read: yeah, they're both doctors but the area in which you work is important.

In my state (CA), all a high school teacher has to do to teach elementary school is take the Multiple Subjects CSET. He or she doesn't need an entirely new education because any accredited teaching program includes a background in ECE.

And if a neurologist is presented with studies that disprove his or her course of action, I'm pretty sure the reaction wouldn't be "Pfft, I've been doing this for a long time, I know better than some studies." 

[rosesandpetals]

Apr 13, 2015 12:12:08 GMT -5 game blouses said:

Apr 13, 2015 11:58:43 GMT -5 rosesandpetals said:

It isn't that she doesn't work with them every day, it's that her education (presumably, if she's teaching in middle/high school) is not in ECE and therefore she doesn't have the background to get a full, deep understanding of the stages of child development. On top of that, she has no experience from which to draw. Her argument is based entirely on studies that criticize practices she has never seen implemented or implemented herself.

The part about a 17 yo graduating and a 10 yo in middle school were side points added on as after thoughts. They weren't the main point being made. The main point is that the expectations placed on kindergarteners are inappropriate for 4 yos who do not yet have the emotional or social development to be as successful in  a classroom as they would be if they waited another year. This is like a pediatrician telling a neurologist he's wrong because of a couple studies he read: yeah, they're both doctors but the area in which you work is important.

In my state (CA), all a high school teacher has to do to teach elementary school is take the Multiple Subjects CSET. He or she doesn't need an entirely new education because any accredited teaching program includes a background in ECE.

And if a neurologist is presented with studies that disprove his or her course of action, I'm pretty sure the reaction wouldn't be "Pfft, I've been doing this for a long time, I know better than some studies." 

In some states, you don't even need any education degree to teach. You just take a few classes and get an alternative licensure, no student teaching and 2 classes on the basics of educational psychology and boom, you're licensed. That doesn't make you qualified. They make licenses easier to get because they need teachers. Actual qualified teachers are leaving the profession in droves.

And he wouldn't say, "I've been doing this a long time." He would say, "I have a background in studying this specific area and have worked with it for years and have seen various methods implemented and based on that this is my opinion." Which is what I'm saying.

[gwapes]

Are ya'll being dicks again?

[expectantsteelerfan]

I just wanted to say thank you, although I didn't participate in the discussion (mostly because I really had no idea what to think on this issue). But I now have about 10 tabs of research open that I will bookmark and read through, and I do feel like a clear distinction has been made...if my child is a typically developing 4 year old, I probably won't even consider sending her early, but if she shows herself above the average of 5 year olds at 4, it's worth still considering.

[andrewsgal]

Apr 13, 2015 13:22:18 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

I just wanted to say thank you, although I didn't participate in the discussion (mostly because I really had no idea what to think on this issue). But I now have about 10 tabs of research open that I will bookmark and read through, and I do feel like a clear distinction has been made...if my child is a typically developing 4 year old, I probably won't even consider sending her early, but if she shows herself above the average of 5 year olds at 4, it's worth still considering.

Yes I agree just please make sure you take her social abilities into account too.

[andrewsgal]

Apr 13, 2015 13:16:36 GMT -5 gwapes said:

Are ya'll being dicks again?

If you can't beat them join them.

[rosesandpetals]

expectantsteelerfan I pm'd you a bunch of links. GL.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Meh speaking of neurologists my kids neurologist prescribes a b6 supplement to counteract the mood swings caused by her anti seizure meds. There is no scientific research to support his claim--merely anecdotal stories. I should call his office today, say since the internet didn't produce a research study on it's efficacy that he's wrong because obviously studies trump doctors experience treating patients.

[Kcthepouchh8r]

Apr 13, 2015 11:16:09 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

In Sweden, 80% of children attend preschool between the ages of one and six.

Another country where "preschool" is play based, focuses on exploring/learning classroom and the child chooses what they learn about.

www.teachingchannel.org/videos/examining-pre-school-curriculum

[andrewsgal]

Apr 13, 2015 14:09:42 GMT -5 Kcthepouchh8r said:

Apr 13, 2015 11:16:09 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

In Sweden, 80% of children attend preschool between the ages of one and six.

Another country where "preschool" is play based, focuses on exploring/learning classroom and the child chooses what they learn about.

www.teachingchannel.org/videos/examining-pre-school-curriculum

Interesting.

[rosesandpetals]

I hope they bring this same attitude to their kid's readiness screening. Then we will have another panic stricken "what do I do, my baby is being held back" post.

[gwapes]

[Rainyday]

Apr 13, 2015 13:26:24 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Apr 13, 2015 13:16:36 GMT -5 gwapes said:

Are ya'll being dicks again?

If you can't beat them join them.

Don't beat a dick.

[expectantsteelerfan]

Apr 13, 2015 13:26:01 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Apr 13, 2015 13:22:18 GMT -5 expectantsteelerfan said:

I just wanted to say thank you, although I didn't participate in the discussion (mostly because I really had no idea what to think on this issue). But I now have about 10 tabs of research open that I will bookmark and read through, and I do feel like a clear distinction has been made...if my child is a typically developing 4 year old, I probably won't even consider sending her early, but if she shows herself above the average of 5 year olds at 4, it's worth still considering.

Yes I agree just please make sure you take her social abilities into account too.

I will, but as I said, she's in a preschool class now with kids who will be entering kindergarten the year after next (and she'll be with those kids in preschool next year as well), along with in other activities, and I've had plenty of opportunity to observe her with these peers, both when she knows I'm there and when she doesn't, and she plays well with and fits in with this group of peers so far.  Glad I have another year before I have to actually decide though.

[scattered]

Apr 13, 2015 15:23:11 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Apr 13, 2015 13:26:24 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

If you can't beat them join them.

Don't beat a dick.

Reading this whole clusterfuck was worth it just for this.

[mamaalysson]

Apr 13, 2015 17:17:14 GMT -5 scattered said:

Apr 13, 2015 15:23:11 GMT -5 Rainyday said:

Don't beat a dick.

Reading this whole clusterfuck was worth it just for this.

And for the Gyllenhal gif.  That made me giggle.

[andrewsgal]

Apr 14, 2015 10:20:40 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

That's what I thought. lol.

WTF? You are ridiculous but as least provide us someone to talk about,

[andrewsgal]

Apr 14, 2015 14:32:28 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 14, 2015 10:51:33 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

WTF? You are ridiculous but as least provide us someone to talk about,

I'm amused she never bothered to answer my question.  Which ... answers my question.  

Considering you are incapable of asking a question without a condescending bitchy undertone on this board why should she?

[scattered]

Apr 14, 2015 15:03:36 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 14, 2015 15:02:16 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Considering you are incapable of asking a question without a condescending bitchy undertone why should she?

lolol

Wait, who didn't answer what? I'm confused now- I thought we were just beating dicks now? 

[andrewsgal]

Apr 14, 2015 15:19:56 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 14, 2015 15:09:48 GMT -5 scattered said:

Wait, who didn't answer what? I'm confused now- I thought we were just beating dicks now? 

lucyhoneychrrch

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yesterday at 2:20pm rosesandpetals said:

I hope they bring this same attitude to their kid's readiness screening. Then we will have another panic stricken "what do I do, my baby is being held back" post.


lucyhoneychrrch said:
Of whom are you speaking? rosesandpetals

Of course you said of whom are you speaking not condescending at all.

[andrewsgal]

FWIW we can all read but why answer? Just to entertain you? Certainly you don't really care.

[andrewsgal]

Apr 14, 2015 15:21:39 GMT -5 Lucy Honeychurch said:

Apr 14, 2015 15:21:06 GMT -5 andrewsgal said:

Of course you said of whom are you speaking not condescending at all.

I could see how it could come across that way, since it's proper grammar and you're completely unfamiliar with same. 

Interesting there can't be more than one way to say it? I mean in a non condescending way?

[andrewsgal]

Lol

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