Post by expectantsteelerfan on Apr 11, 2015 8:45:18 GMT -5
In the other thread, Andrewsgirl, you stated you had really strong opinions against kids starting kindy at 4, and I was wondering if you'd mind explaining (again, if you had previously) why you feel so strongly? Anyone else is welcome to weigh in too, I was just really curious why she felt SO strongly.
My daughter's birthdate is right after the cutoff and our district allows for testing to consider starting early. This is still a year away, but I've been obsessing over this for a year already and am still completely undecided, so I'm just looking for other opinions. Obv. none of you know my daughter so anything said will have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Well if what I've been hearing for years is true, Kindy is the new first grade. First grade is now more like second grade...so assuming that's the case four year olds would be expected to be learning to read? They have their whole lives to be in school and play based learning is still appropriate at 4yo. Fine motor skills aren't even developed enough to be writing letters for many kids and there is such a broad range of development at that age. These are just observations from my own 3 children, I am not a teacher. All my kids have Fall birthdays so they will always be the oldest, the cutoff here is Sept.1. The is no Kindy readiness testing here either.
Our curriculum is not even appropriate for 5 year olds. It is far from a good fit for any four year olds. While some kids have better skills than others I just think a four year old is way to young o push as hard as we do in kinder.
My daughter missed the cutoff by 4 days!! I never ever even considered sending her. In fact after 4 weeks in kinder they recommended she move up and I said absolutely not.
There would be nothing to gain by pushing a child ahead unless you absolutely financially can not do it. Why would you even want to? The only reason I see a lot is "my special snowflake is so smart" great! They will be fine in kinder at the correct age.
I actually have more to say but we have two soccer games a volleyball game, and DS first birthday party I will post more tomorrow.
Post by penguingrrl on Apr 11, 2015 9:56:23 GMT -5
Having seen the K curriculum there is no way I would attempt to test a kid in. Add in how common red shirting is and I would be even less inclined. My oldest's birthday is the day before the cut off and I sent her without reservation because she was ready. Academically she's doing very well, but she has kids a few weeks shy of 2 years older than her in her class and it has impacted her socially a lot. She's the youngest by a lot and that's hard and I suspect will get harder when we enter the sex, drugs and rock and roll years. I worry about her being less mature when those things start due to being a lot younger than her classmates.
Honestly, there's not a single curriculum in k-6 that is developmentally appropriate.
I too, hate the idea of 4 yos in K, but I do think there truly are some special circumstance. There are about 7% of kids who are truly G&T and could handle K at 4, I personally, would have her tested, but weigh the results, and all aspects of the rest of her life heavily.
My DD is going to miss her cutoff by about 5 days. She is terrifyingly smart. We will be testing her, but even if she qualifies to skip the cutoff, I don't know that we'll send her. We will consider it, but we will consider all aspects of it. She'd be 17 when she starts college. She wouldn't get her driver's license until her junior year. She will be a 10 year old in middle school with 14 year olds. There are SO MANY aspects to consider.
THere's no harm, IMO, in having her tested, but don't let the test make the decision for you.
Honestly, there's not a single curriculum in k-6 that is developmentally appropriate.
I too, hate the idea of 4 yos in K, but I do think there truly are some special circumstance. There are about 7% of kids who are truly G&T and could handle K at 4, I personally, would have her tested, but weigh the results, and all aspects of the rest of her life heavily.
My DD is going to miss her cutoff by about 5 days. She is terrifyingly smart. We will be testing her, but even if she qualifies to skip the cutoff, I don't know that we'll send her. We will consider it, but we will consider all aspects of it. She'd be 17 when she starts college. She wouldn't get her driver's license until her junior year. She will be a 10 year old in middle school with 14 year olds. There are SO MANY aspects to consider.
THere's no harm, IMO, in having her tested, but don't let the test make the decision for you.
DD has been receiving GT services since kinder it was only her and one other little girl at that age. She would have been a mess socially. In fact a true GT kid often struggles socially which for me is even more a reason not to start them young. Now I'm second grade her GT program focuses heavily on working in groups and social skills that go along with that. It wasn't until this year she actually came into her own in a social aspect pushing her ahead would have been a horrible choicez
Honestly, there's not a single curriculum in k-6 that is developmentally appropriate.
I too, hate the idea of 4 yos in K, but I do think there truly are some special circumstance. There are about 7% of kids who are truly G&T and could handle K at 4, I personally, would have her tested, but weigh the results, and all aspects of the rest of her life heavily.
My DD is going to miss her cutoff by about 5 days. She is terrifyingly smart. We will be testing her, but even if she qualifies to skip the cutoff, I don't know that we'll send her. We will consider it, but we will consider all aspects of it. She'd be 17 when she starts college. She wouldn't get her driver's license until her junior year. She will be a 10 year old in middle school with 14 year olds. There are SO MANY aspects to consider.
THere's no harm, IMO, in having her tested, but don't let the test make the decision for you.
DD has been receiving GT services since kinder it was only her and one other little girl at that age. She would have been a mess socially. In fact a true GT kid often struggles socially which for me is even more a reason not to start them young. Now I'm second grade her GT program focuses heavily on working in groups and social skills that go along with that. It wasn't until this year she actually came into her own in a social aspect pushing her ahead would have been a horrible choicez
Yep. Social is often a huge issue for GT kids. I'd still have my kid tested, but take that into consideration when making my decision.
I know for us emotional maturity was a big concern with DS2 going into kindergarten at 5. We went ahead and did the kindergarten readiness screening and he blew it out of the water. The school recommended that we put him through anyway, so we did and it worked out.
That said, my kids learned things in Kindergarten that we probably didn't learn until 2nd grade and the amount of work they are expected to do is mind boggling. I would go ahead and do the screening, but make sure to find out what the academics look like and weigh your options before making a decision.
ETA: don't even get me started on first grade. Poor DS1 was stressed out all week over a spelling test he had yesterday. He ended doing fine but it really sucked watching him stress out over it.
Post by rosesandpetals on Apr 11, 2015 11:28:06 GMT -5
The thing is, being smart is just one aspect of school. If your child is truly a G&T genius who needs to be challenged (and kids do need to be academically challenged) there are other ways to achieve that. School isn't just about being able to do the work, you have to be able to do the work, sit quietly much longer than you do in preschool, stand in a line (quietly in the halls), raise your hand to go to the bathroom/ask a question/ask for help (in other words, you need impulse control), you need certain fine motor skills to complete projects, you only get a very short recess time (compared to preschool), even lunch is a problem for kids who are used to getting 30 minutes to eat and you have a much shorter time in kinder. Then there's the emotional maturity and being on the same emotional level as peers and being able to maintain friendships with those kids who will be her classmates for 13 years.
If a kid struggles with any of these things, there are supports there to help them. No one goes into kindergarten being a perfect student. But if she struggles with any of these things at 4, I don't see why you would send her to struggle when you could wait and let the problem solve itself in another year. There are super special snowflakes who are ready at 4 but they are few and far between and I would look at the whole picture, what her daily expectations will be, before deciding to send her. She can be academically challenged at home and in preschool if you are concerned about that. Personally, I'd rather my child be one of the more mature kids than on the immature side so I would hold her and wait another year.
Andplusalso, everything Rora said about being 10 in middle school and 17 in college. 21 and expected to start a grown up career. Local sports team are divided by age, not by grade, so she wouldn't play with her friends from school, she'd be with the younger kids. etc etc.
I'm surprised that districts across the country are all so different. Here, kids are 5 when they start b/c the cutoff is 9/1, and even with that people still often redshirt if their kids (especially boys) are close. In DD's class at the start of the school year, they had some kids who just turned 5, and some who just turned 6! Now, I don't know if your curriculum is different b/c they allow kids to start at 4, but I agree w/ all the others that I would never want to start a kindergartner at 4 years old. I had lots of issues about starting kindy and the curriculum, and even though DD is top of her class academically, I still have issues w/ the curriculum (too academic, too many worksheets, too little free play and creativity) and the focus of kindergarten. I think it can be detrimental to kids' development and long-term achievement to narrow down their focus and force them into "sit down and write" behaviors too early. Academically, they truly do things that we did in 1st and 2nd grade.
My greater concern would be more with the independence/behaviour aspects and what is developmentally appropriate for a four year old. They have to get their coats and gear on and off independently, change shoes for gym, go down the hall and to the bathroom totally on their own (no supervision), get from class to class with very little supervision, be able to get to the right place for the bus, enter their code for hot lunch, etc. They sit for long periods of time and work on projects. They have tons of kids on the playground at one time and there have been social incidents already with kids name calling, not playing, etc, which is especially hard if you are only four! I would NOT have been comfortable at all sending a four year old. It's also a very long day where we are (gets on the bus at 8:30 and off at 4:00) and the kids are WORN OUT for the first few months, especially. I think it's too long for my now-6 year old! But again, maybe things are different in your district.
All of my issues with kindergarten would have been magnified about 1,000 times if she were to have started at 4. That's really young. Plus, I agree that long term it could have big consequences as well. My dad and my MIL both skipped grades early or started extra early, and both say they would never have wanted to do it again.
I feel like the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'd prefer to see a national cut off of aug 1 or sept 1, truly age appropriate material and no red shirting or testing early. After a child is in kindergarten that is the time to see if service are needed on either end. Obviously if all districts actually had ece this could be done earlier but no districts here have public prek.
This is what frustrates me - if I send my child who has met the age requirement at young 5, I hate that she is getting compared to someone who red shirted and is already 6+. No matter what there will be a year age spread.
How do k teachers handle this? Can they effectively teach to a 15-18 month age spread? The earlier the cut off gets and the mire people red shirt - does that drive the higher level of curriculum we see now that 20-30 years ago? Or is it the opposite? What came first?
Anyway, I'm not an educator so I may well have no idea what I'm talking about.
Post by expectantsteelerfan on Apr 11, 2015 12:17:25 GMT -5
To be honest, I agree with Lala and wish there was a national cutoff that was totally enforced, no redshirting or testing early, and then I wouldn't have to make this decision.
To explain my predicament more, we moved last summer. Where we were living in VA, they had a cutoff of Sept. 30th, where we live now, it's Sept. 1, her bday is Sept. 16th. So if we hadn't moved, she would have made the cutoff and started kindy the year she was 4 turning 5, but here she should wait till next year. But although public schools use Sept. 1, her preschool, dance, and other activities don't. So she's in 3 year old preschool this year with kids who will be in 4 year old preschool next year, then start kindy. I truly don't think she's gifted/talented, but she does seem to fit in well with the peer group that she's in. Financially, it would be helpful to us if she started kindy when she was 4, but it wouldn't be a hardship if she didn't. I plan to go back to work full-time when she starts 1st grade (kindy here is only half-day, so I'll wait till she's going full day), and I'd prefer to do that sooner than later, but I also will NOT make this decision out of convenience for me.
My issue is that SOMEONE has to be the youngest in class, and it seems kinda arbitrary to me that if we hadn't moved, she would have started when she was 4 and I wouldn't have really questioned it as long as she was on track with the other kids in that age group, which if she continues to develop as is, she will be. I have talked to her pedi. about it as well as her current teachers, and I will obv. be talking to her teachers next year as well as the kindy teachers. I will likely have her tested and see what they say, but I honestly have no idea what decision I'll make at this point even if she passes the assessment and they recommend I start her.
Ds's bday is July 31st, and he is the youngest in his class even though he isn't right at the cutoff. He's not particularly mature for his age, but he's doing fine in school. But of course there's no way to know if an extra month and a half would have made a difference. I'm honestly terrified of making this decision and regretting it either way.
Post by fancynewbeesly on Apr 11, 2015 12:43:51 GMT -5
I agree with a national cut off---I would like to see August 1st as a national cut off; especially because many districts do start in late August. That way, EVERY kid will be 5 by kindergarten. Our district starts usually September 1st, and everyone has to be 5 by October 1st--so there are some kids that a 4 in the very beginning of kindergarten. I actually think we will see more 4 year old's in kindergarten NOW than in the past. Our district is moving to full day kindergarten next fall. So parents who were holding off sending their 4 year old to kindergarten, because the half day program is hard to coordinate pick up/drop off etc--and there a lot of working parents. But now with full day, parents will definitely start sending their 4's to kindergarten to avoid paying another year for childcare.
Kindergarten is definitely the new first grade. They want the kids to be able to read and write by the end of it. Even if it is not developmentally appropriate for all kids.
Reese is birthday is in the end of May, so she will be on the "younger end" (having a late spring birthday) than her peers. However, even at 3 with no real formal preschool experience, she will be fine. She is just "with it" (academically, socially, and maturity wise). I honestly think that her experiences with her medical issues made her unfortunately more socially ready and mature. She has no problem following directions, being in new situations, impulse control, etc. But again, either with all that; if her birthday was September 30th, I doubt I would send her at 4. To me kindergarten isn't the issue, because I know she will be fine there and probably be able to progress to first grade easily--it is more the middle school at 10, high school at 13 and graduating by 17 that I don't want to expose her to young.
It's not just kindergarten teachers that have to deal with this age gap. Every teacher has to deal with it and the social and emotional maturity differences are very obvious. I think the big transition years are especially problematic- moving from elementary to middle and middle to high school. Asking a 13 year old who is making fart noises and giggling to handle classic literature and mature concepts is ridiculous. I wish more parents thought beyond kindergarten.
Post by amynumbers on Apr 11, 2015 14:23:36 GMT -5
So, I had always heard you couldn't get a real true assessment of G&T until second grade or so -- outside of the Doogie Howser doing quadratic equations at three, I just assume most people who talk about having a "bored" four year old who needs to go to kindy early didn't truly have a full picture yet.
So, I had always heard you couldn't get a real true assessment of G&T until second grade or so -- outside of the Doogie Howser doing quadratic equations at three, I just assume most people who talk about having a "bored" four year old who needs to go to kindy early didn't truly have a full picture yet.
So, I had always heard you couldn't get a real true assessment of G&T until second grade or so -- outside of the Doogie Howser doing quadratic equations at three, I just assume most people who talk about having a "bored" four year old who needs to go to kindy early didn't truly have a full picture yet.
The district I'm in does not test kids until 3rd.
Yep. Our kids don't get tested until 3rd. Which I see the pros and cons, because as a teacher I do see some exceptionally bright kids, and I think some of the behavioral problems in the younger grades can be contributed to the children not being challenged enough.
So, I had always heard you couldn't get a real true assessment of G&T until second grade or so -- outside of the Doogie Howser doing quadratic equations at three, I just assume most people who talk about having a "bored" four year old who needs to go to kindy early didn't truly have a full picture yet.
Our district doesn't test until second. dD received services because I refused pushing her ahead and her kinder teacher was having trouble challenging her. She wasn't truly identified until three weeks ago but they have been using it to supplement her.
To be honest, I agree with Lala and wish there was a national cutoff that was totally enforced, no redshirting or testing early, and then I wouldn't have to make this decision.
To explain my predicament more, we moved last summer. Where we were living in VA, they had a cutoff of Sept. 30th, where we live now, it's Sept. 1, her bday is Sept. 16th. So if we hadn't moved, she would have made the cutoff and started kindy the year she was 4 turning 5, but here she should wait till next year. But although public schools use Sept. 1, her preschool, dance, and other activities don't. So she's in 3 year old preschool this year with kids who will be in 4 year old preschool next year, then start kindy. I truly don't think she's gifted/talented, but she does seem to fit in well with the peer group that she's in. Financially, it would be helpful to us if she started kindy when she was 4, but it wouldn't be a hardship if she didn't. I plan to go back to work full-time when she starts 1st grade (kindy here is only half-day, so I'll wait till she's going full day), and I'd prefer to do that sooner than later, but I also will NOT make this decision out of convenience for me.
My issue is that SOMEONE has to be the youngest in class, and it seems kinda arbitrary to me that if we hadn't moved, she would have started when she was 4 and I wouldn't have really questioned it as long as she was on track with the other kids in that age group, which if she continues to develop as is, she will be. I have talked to her pedi. about it as well as her current teachers, and I will obv. be talking to her teachers next year as well as the kindy teachers. I will likely have her tested and see what they say, but I honestly have no idea what decision I'll make at this point even if she passes the assessment and they recommend I start her.
Ds's bday is July 31st, and he is the youngest in his class even though he isn't right at the cutoff. He's not particularly mature for his age, but he's doing fine in school. But of course there's no way to know if an extra month and a half would have made a difference. I'm honestly terrified of making this decision and regretting it either way.
Um 16 days is not "just missing the cutoff". Nope don't send her.
Can anyone one to point to peer reviewed literature on the topic? I've only been able to find a few Canadian studies.
On the negative effects of retention or the negative effects of being immature for your grade? The former has been studied ad nauseum but I can look up the names of the authors later if you want.
That site summarizes multiple studies on the negative effects of retention. You can just ignore the parts about Ohio's law specifically in the beginning and read the bullets. It lists the studies by author so you can look them up.
nursecramer I think It depends on the classroom being age appropriate. No one here is arguing the benefits of preschool. We are talking about kids too young to be starting kindy. Many of our public schools here have 3yo and 4yo CD classes. These kids will be ready for kindy and way ahead of many of their peers, considering the alternative. (Many are LSES and free lunch.)
Post by expectantsteelerfan on Apr 12, 2015 6:40:18 GMT -5
So I'm just curious, had we NOT moved, and the cutoff was Sept. 30th (and again, dd's bday is Sept. 16), and she had gone through 3 year and 4 year preschool with no issue and seemed to fit in with her peers in those classes, would you all be recommending I redshirt her?
So I'm just curious, had we NOT moved, and the cutoff was Sept. 30th (and again, dd's bday is Sept. 16), and she had gone through 3 year and 4 year preschool with no issue and seemed to fit in with her peers in those classes, would you all be recommending I redshirt her?
No I think it would have been fine to start her then because she would be on age with her peers. I think the cutoff should be followed unless you are told otherwise by a professional.
That site summarizes multiple studies on the negative effects of retention. You can just ignore the parts about Ohio's law specifically in the beginning and read the bullets. It lists the studies by author so you can look them up.
All of these studies are for older kids. There is a huge difference between a 5 year old and 9 year old. Not only that I will argue it has more to do with skills, SES and actual intelligence than retention.
That site summarizes multiple studies on the negative effects of retention. You can just ignore the parts about Ohio's law specifically in the beginning and read the bullets. It lists the studies by author so you can look them up.
All of these studies are for older kids. There is a huge difference between a 5 year old and 9 year old. Not only that I will argue it has more to do with skills, SES and actual intelligence than retention.
In any study I've read They're not just researching inner city kids. It seems to be across the board.
I still think more intensive 1:1 instruction in a smaller classroom with after school/summer school more ideal than just retention. I bet a part of the negative academic outcomes with retention is the more laissez faire attitude that probably comes with retention since they have another year with the material.
All of these studies are for older kids. There is a huge difference between a 5 year old and 9 year old. Not only that I will argue it has more to do with skills, SES and actual intelligence than retention.
In any study I've read They're not just researching inner city kids. It seems to be across the board.
I still think more intensive 1:1 instruction in a smaller classroom with after school/summer school more ideal than just retention. I bet a part of the negative academic outcomes with retention is the more laissez faire attitude that probably comes with retention since they have another year with the material.
See but couldn't you say that the same reasons that cause retention are also what usually causes a kid to drop out (trouble with academics, low self confidence, trouble reading in general). I just don't think you can say that retention causes a kid to drop out. Like I said there is a huge difference between retaining a 5 year old vs a 9 year old.
In any study I've read They're not just researching inner city kids. It seems to be across the board.
I still think more intensive 1:1 instruction in a smaller classroom with after school/summer school more ideal than just retention. I bet a part of the negative academic outcomes with retention is the more laissez faire attitude that probably comes with retention since they have another year with the material.
See but couldn't you say that the same reasons that cause retention are also what usually causes a kid to drop out (trouble with academics, low self confidence, trouble reading in general). I just don't think you can say that retention causes a kid to drop out. Like I said there is a huge difference between retaining a 5 year old vs a 9 year old.
I think you can say retention contributes to dropout in the same way you can say preschool contributes to going to college and Breastfeeding contributes to higher iq. Obviously there are other factors in play but the connections still exists. Early childhood plays a significant role. While it may be better at 5 than 9 it still is unlikely to have a positive impact and really should probably only be considered in a kid who is struggling across the board.