And you know what? This plays right into that same "beast" stereotype they used in Ferguson. Yes, he was so irate he just kept running up against the sides of a van like a locked up gorilla runs against the glass at a zoo. And he is such an animal with no good sense, that he severed his own spine doing it. Yup, that's the ticket.
And is "irate" the same thing as screaming in agony because one's fucking spine is severed. Let me know so Black people don't continue to make that mistake. Sit quietly while you die, ok?
Post by averyjessup on Apr 30, 2015 5:06:46 GMT -5
It looked like from the video that one of his legs was broken/badly injured, has there been any confirmation on that? So we're expected to believe that a man in handcuffs, with presumably one good leg, had the physical dexterity to throw himself into a wall hard enough to sever his own spine?? WTAF. Just.... ugh.
... The van driver stopped three times while transporting Gray to a booking center, the first to put him in leg irons. Batts said the officer driving the van described Gray as “irate.” The search warrant application says Gray “continued to be combative in the police wagon.”
The driver made a second stop, five minutes later, and asked an officer to help check on Gray. At that stop, police have said the van driver found Gray on the floor of the van and put him back on the seat, still without restraints. Police said Gray asked for medical help at that point.
The third stop was to put the other prisoner — a 38-year-old man accused of violating a protective order — into the van. The van was then driven six blocks to the Western District station. Gray was taken from there to a hospital, where he died April 19. ...
Wait just one second. So a mostly limp man, who hopped into the van on one leg b/c he was injured in one leg, at the very least, ends up getting leg irons as he is in the back of the van, then was found on the floor 5 minutes later and put back in his seat (while asking for medical help), and then some guy who rode with him for 6 city blocks says he then started throwing himself around the place after not being able to get himself off the floor, without help from officers, several minutes before?!?!
How is the fact he was banging around even lead you to "he injured himself"? Like that's the logical conclusion? Um no. Not to mention that's hardly definitive evidence he was even doing it purposefully. Besides, if that's your defense of what happened, you can present that during your trial for negligent homicide, manslaughter or whatever degree murder applies and a jury can determine whether it - along with other evidence - rises to the level of reasonable doubt.
I'm sorry (not really), but an internal police investigation should not be the final word when someone dies like this.
Anyone who believes this story is willfully ignorant. And is a racist looking for an excuse to condemn a black man.
Post by dawnzersong on Apr 30, 2015 7:00:24 GMT -5
I love how we're supposed to be skeptical of anything coming from the perspective of Freddie or his family because he was a criminal, but now we're expected to just trust that this other criminal isn't lying in order to save his own ass or just to fuck with the justice system for shits and giggles.
:/ I don't even know what to say about that. It just sounds so implausible as to be actually stupid. Just wondering though. Could situations like this be avoided in the future if cops had to wear video cameras and cameras were installed in vans like this? I know some police do but why don't all? For their own protection as well as everyone else's.
Eh, yeah, maybe.
But I don't want the police being respectful of people's rights and lives just because they are wearing the camera or someone is watching them. They should do this no matter the situation! The videos are for accountability, but the changes have to be made by each department and individually and bought into as a culture.
But I don't want the police being respectful of people's rights and lives just because they are wearing the camera or someone is watching them. They should do this no matter the situation! The videos are for accountability, but the changes have to be made by each department and individually and bought into as a culture.
I get what you're saying. But if it helps by reminding them that people may watch what they're doing. No more rough rides, etc. I agree that big cultural changes need to be made too but I have no idea how you go about doing that. The cameras kind of seem like a no brainier to me.
Yeah, that makes sense too, but there WERE cameras on Freddie's arrest and a guy who filmed it (and confirmed) that the officers wrapped his legs up to his back and kneeled on his back and neck. Even with these cameras there is nothing yet from the Baltimore PD saying, "Yeah, we're reviewing that video footage b/c it does appear that two 200+ lb officers were kneeling on parts of his back and neck, which may have been a cause for injury."
I too find it improbable that Mr. Grey severed his own spinal column because are you fucking kidding me?
Right? This is kind of where I am at. Look, I know people can injure themselves from banging their own head or whatever, but I think it takes a LOT of force to severe ones own spinal cord. So even if he was banging his head purposely I am not sure how that would severe his spinal cord. Honestly, that is such an amazing injury that I am not sure how it could have been done prior to being in the van either (with the knee to the neck, but I am no dr). I assumed it came from being thrown around in the van since he wasn't seatbelted or able to brace himself.
If he was throwing himself around why not put his seatbelt on? You stop to shackle him but don't follow policy?
This is what I was going to say. If you hear him thrashing around in the back, you go and restrain him so he can't do that.
Oh and the last paragraphs of the cops may have missed the protocol updates. Bullshit.
This part I completely believe. It is pretty sad to see how information is disseminated throughout a department that they expect people to know. Usually it is just an email with change in policy and it will have legalese and people skim it at best. And half the time you don't have access to a computer or whatever to read what is being sent to you. If they want to "make sure" you read it (for liability purposes), they will have you sign a document stating you received it so they are covered. So many times people sign without really reading because no one has explained the importance of reading before you sign. I mean people do that on a daily basis now with various agreements it has become second nature.
I should probably clarify what I meant. I don't doubt there are people who do not do their due diligence or that there could be an ineffective way that they are communicating updates. I call bullshit that it is an excuse that means you are not held responsible for your actions. For my job I have a ton of training about how to maintain confidential information, how to handle records, what I can and cannot invest in, etc. Guess what if I fuck it up I still lose my job because not saying I didn't understand or pay attention or whatever would not change the fact that I violated policy.
Post by cookiemdough on Apr 30, 2015 7:49:20 GMT -5
At think point i don't even know if it would be worthwhile to have cameras and spend that kind of money. If they are going to sell the American public on a story that a man severed his own spinal cord off of a witness' opinion that it "sounded" like he was thrashing around intentionally even though he couldn't even see Freddie despite that the department has a history of excessive force then we deserve exactly what we get. We may as well go back to lynchings and calling it suicide by hanging since clearly that is what we are willing to accept in our society.
Shame on the Washington Post for printing this bullshit.
You know what else makes a lot of noise against metal? Metal shackles. Especially if an unrestrained prisoner were to, say, fall down. So you can take your nonsensical story from someone WHO DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE A THING and shove it right up your ass, WaPo.
If this is the set up excuse that I think it is (and of course it is, but I have a miniscule shred of hope that it's not), I am simultaneously horrified and bemused(?) that no one could think of anything more plausible than "oh yeah, this guy who absolutely could use a lie to his personal advantage and who couldn't see shit HEARD a man sever his own fucking spine."
I know less than nothing about neurology, but isn't it also possible that the kind of injury that can sever one's spinal cord could also cause, oh I don't know, seizures? Which usually involve thrashing.
Shame on the Washington Post for printing this bullshit.
You know what else makes a lot of noise against metal? Metal shackles. Especially if an unrestrained prisoner were to, say, fall down. So you can take your nonsensical story from someone WHO DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE A THING and shove it right up your ass, WaPo.
If this is the set up excuse that I think it is (and of course it is, but I have a miniscule shred of hope that it's not), I am simultaneously horrified and bemused(?) that no one could think of anything more plausible than "oh yeah, this guy who absolutely could use a lie to his personal advantage and who couldn't see shit HEARD a man sever his own fucking spine."
I can't like this enough. I'm supposed to believe that Gray was "irate" enough to crush his own voicebox, crush three vertebrae and sever his spinal cord? It also plays right into the assumption that Black people feel less pain than white people - I can already see the FB posts coming that Gray did this to himself and didn't even realize it. Disgusting.
Post by Velvetshady on Apr 30, 2015 8:54:20 GMT -5
I can totally believe the other prisoner is saying Gray was throwing himself against the walls of the van. As much as I'd like to believe I'd be braver, I'm pretty damn sure that if I was a black man, already on these specific officer's radar, and saw what went down, there is no way in hell I'm telling anyone about the police officer that was actually causing Gray to hit the walls and make all that noise. Unless the Feds already have me and all my loved ones new identities, in a new city.
And you know what? This plays right into that same "beast" stereotype they used in Ferguson. Yes, he was so irate he just kept running up against the sides of a van like a locked up gorilla runs against the glass at a zoo. And he is such an animal with no good sense, that he severed his own spine doing it. Yup, that's the ticket.
And is "irate" the same thing as screaming in agony because one's fucking spine is severed. Let me know so Black people don't continue to make that mistake. Sit quietly while you die, ok?
This comment gave me flashbacks to discussions about Native Son in high school. It's sad that 75 years after it was written, so much of what Richard Wright wrote still rings true.
I know less than nothing about neurology, but isn't it also possible that the kind of injury that can sever one's spinal cord could also cause, oh I don't know, seizures? Which usually involve thrashing.
Of course he didn't sever his own spinal cord by thrashing around in a van. If he had a head injury or broken arm, then that explanation would be more plausible.
But still, severing a spinal cord from cops pushing their knees into his back during an arrest? That doesn't add up, either. I'm no medical expert, but I imagine that a spinal injury to this extent would take a tremendous amount of force. The fact that he had no other injuries is just baffling, or that there is no eyewitness saying he was forcefully thrown to the ground or punched directly in the throat or back (not that this didn't happen, but weren't there a number of people around during the arrest?)
The only thing that makes sense to me is on one of those van stops a cop gave him a few very forceful strikes that caused these injuries.
So my local news (and probably CNN, too, but I haven't watched today yet) is reporting what a "relative of an officer" has to say, which of course backs up the prisoner's story. This is news?!? No, this is hearsay. They should be ashamed.
Of course he didn't sever his own spinal cord by thrashing around in a van. If he had a head injury or broken arm, then that explanation would be more plausible.
But still, severing a spinal cord from cops pushing their knees into his back during an arrest? That doesn't add up, either. I'm no medical expert, but I imagine that a spinal injury to this extent would take a tremendous amount of force. The fact that he had no other injuries is just baffling, or that there is no eyewitness saying he was forcefully thrown to the ground or punched directly in the throat or back (not that this didn't happen, but weren't there a number of people around during the arrest?)
The only thing that makes sense to me is on one of those van stops a cop gave him a few very forceful strikes that caused these injuries.
It actually doesn't take that much force. The neck is a very delicate thing.
So my local news (and probably CNN, too, but I haven't watched today yet) is reporting what a "relative of an officer" has to say, which of course backs up the prisoner's story. This is news?!? No, this is hearsay. They should be ashamed.
It's events like these that make me so disturbed at how absolutely terrible television news is.*
On the other hand, I'm also heartened by the amazing print journalism that starts trickling up.
The disconnect between CNN and The Atlantic is mind-blowing.
*With one exception, and that is MSNBC, which is usually just a network of people failing miserably at trying to be the liberal Fox. Their protest coverage has generally been very balanced and thoughtful, at least by TV news standards.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Apr 30, 2015 10:20:36 GMT -5
A couple of my coworkers are talking about it. One is black. One is white. It sounds like white guy might be inclined to believe Freddie injured himself. Black guy's tone with white guy is hilarious.