Also no they don't get to be held up as a family of Christian values. He molested they covered it up and lied. Nothing about that is Christian. I don't care if God forgives him. I don't care if they still consider themselves strong Christians. They don't get to be some poster family for Christian values.
Sing please take a step back and think about this. Young people are leaving the church faster than they are coming in.
They see hypocrisy and hate as a Christian value and don't want any part in that. Jim Bob was preaching than those who rape or take part in incest should be killed all the while hiding a molester in their family. Michelle made a call stating that transgendered people were perverts and going to hurt our children. While letting this man still have a lot of contact with her own daughters he molested.
They can ask for forgiveness all they want. They are not strong Christians not even close.
Thank you for showing up with reason and common sense. The Duggar are raging assholes. This latest offense isn't what suddenly made them horrible people.
Sorry, this is way tl, dr. Apparently I have a lot to say.
Sing, I really like you, and I really think (hope) you're feeling the need to defend your faith here. The thing is, an attack on the Duggars is NOT an attack on all Christianity. I'm a Christian, but I personally don't buy into their particular "brand" of Christianity.
I think that the way we respond to this, right now, as Christians, is so important. By defending the Duggars and their actions, we look spiritually weak, and we're also enabling this kind of behavior. That's not okay. It's okay for us to hold other Christians accountable. The bible says so. I'm not going to post the entire passage, because it's long, but read 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Here's verses 12 & 13:
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you."
We're told not to judge those outside the church, but we're encouraged to call out our brothers and sisters when they're blatantly sinning.
I could *almost* understand their desire to protect their son and not run straight to the police IF they had also protected their daughters in the same way and gotten them all proper counseling. Jim Bob and Michelle screwed up in a big way here and they seriously failed their children. I do believe in repentance and forgiveness, but I also believe in justice. And there was NO justice for those poor girls. God's forgiveness does not free us from the consequences of our actions. Jim Bob and Michelle haven't even admitted that they did anything wrong.
I do feel bad for the girls, as victims of course, but also having this drug up again. I think their identities should have been better protected. But I don't feel bad for Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh. They started a reality show KNOWING this skeleton was in their closet. They preached sexual morality and purity while covering up the crimes of a child molester. I'm not sorry this is out there and I'm not sorry they lost their show. They CHOSE to be in the public eye, and now they're suffering the consequences of their actions.
Sing- I don't think people find glee that a religious family is falling from grace. I think people find glee that *this* family is falling from grace. Such is life when you make a life and career out of attacking others and being controversial. Plus, this is what we do to "celebrities". We build them up to tear them down. I personally find the whole thing sick, but we as the masses love it. See: Britney Spears, Lindsey Lohan, and other Disney stars. The only thing we love more is a good come back story after we kicked them from their post.
For me it isn't a celebrity thing. Honestly I liked the show when it first aired. Yeah, I thought they might have been raising their girls to go off, get married and have babies but in the grand scheme of things it's really not the worst thing when so many kids go without food, clothing and shelter. I'm not Christian but I can support true Christian values. The thing is they don't do that. They promote depriving other people of their rights and demonizing other people for being who they are under the guise of Christian family values. So yeah, when people who physically abuse their children and preach hate have something like that happen to them I'm not exactly feeling for them. I feel for the girls abused but am not at all surprised that Jim bob and Michelle raised a monster.
Also, this is what I mean by "all sins are not equal". Molesting your sister, and then making a career out of lobbying against the civil rights of gay people -- and part of your argument being that they will molest children -- is the point of no return. Josh Duggar and his shit head parents have hit the point of no return.
And honestly no just God would expect people to forgive that.
I read something in a blog the other day that I think explains the "all sins are equal" thing well.
"I get that all sin, no matter what, comes between us and God. In that way, it is equal.
But telling a white lie that you were on time (when you were really 15 minutes late) -- and sexually victimizing multiple children over a long period of time -- do not require the same consequences. There are natural consequences that really SHOULD happen in one case over the other.
That is why we need to call it a crime. And not just a sin. Because it is both. And because the consequences for a white-lie-kind-of sin is not the same as for a felony-kind-of sin."
Absolutely. I think this is what auroraloo was saying also. There most definitely are natural consequences and varying degrees of consequences. That didn't happen here and should have.
I was bringing the idea that no matter how big the offense, there could be restoration. That's all.
Sorry, this is way tl, dr. Apparently I have a lot to say.
Sing, I really like you, and I really think (hope) you're feeling the need to defend your faith here. The thing is, an attack on the Duggars is NOT an attack on all Christianity. I'm a Christian, but I personally don't buy into their particular "brand" of Christianity.
I think that the way we respond to this, right now, as Christians, is so important. By defending the Duggars and their actions, we look spiritually weak, and we're also enabling this kind of behavior. That's not okay. It's okay for us to hold other Christians accountable. The bible says so. I'm not going to post the entire passage, because it's long, but read 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Here's verses 12 & 13:
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you."
We're told not to judge those outside the church, but we're encouraged to call out our brothers and sisters when they're blatantly sinning.
I could *almost* understand their desire to protect their son and not run straight to the police IF they had also protected their daughters in the same way and gotten them all proper counseling. Jim Bob and Michelle screwed up in a big way here and they seriously failed their children. I do believe in repentance and forgiveness, but I also believe in justice. And there was NO justice for those poor girls. God's forgiveness does not free us from the consequences of our actions. Jim Bob and Michelle haven't even admitted that they did anything wrong.
I do feel bad for the girls, as victims of course, but also having this drug up again. I think their identities should have been better protected. But I don't feel bad for Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh. They started a reality show KNOWING this skeleton was in their closet. They preached sexual morality and purity while covering up the crimes of a child molester. I'm not sorry this is out there and I'm not sorry they lost their show. They CHOSE to be in the public eye, and now they're suffering the consequences of their actions.
Not defending their actions. I also think they are extremist, but let's be honest, most people associate their name with Cheistianity. I feel Christianity will always hve a sullied name until people realize that all Christians screw up...even majorly at times. Christians even commit crimes sometimes. That doesn't change our God. Hang on...more thoughts....
Sorry, this is way tl, dr. Apparently I have a lot to say.
Sing, I really like you, and I really think (hope) you're feeling the need to defend your faith here. The thing is, an attack on the Duggars is NOT an attack on all Christianity. I'm a Christian, but I personally don't buy into their particular "brand" of Christianity.
I think that the way we respond to this, right now, as Christians, is so important. By defending the Duggars and their actions, we look spiritually weak, and we're also enabling this kind of behavior. That's not okay. It's okay for us to hold other Christians accountable. The bible says so. I'm not going to post the entire passage, because it's long, but read 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. Here's verses 12 & 13:
"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you."
We're told not to judge those outside the church, but we're encouraged to call out our brothers and sisters when they're blatantly sinning.
I could *almost* understand their desire to protect their son and not run straight to the police IF they had also protected their daughters in the same way and gotten them all proper counseling. Jim Bob and Michelle screwed up in a big way here and they seriously failed their children. I do believe in repentance and forgiveness, but I also believe in justice. And there was NO justice for those poor girls. God's forgiveness does not free us from the consequences of our actions. Jim Bob and Michelle haven't even admitted that they did anything wrong.
I do feel bad for the girls, as victims of course, but also having this drug up again. I think their identities should have been better protected. But I don't feel bad for Jim Bob, Michelle, and Josh. They started a reality show KNOWING this skeleton was in their closet. They preached sexual morality and purity while covering up the crimes of a child molester. I'm not sorry this is out there and I'm not sorry they lost their show. They CHOSE to be in the public eye, and now they're suffering the consequences of their actions.
Not defending their actions. I also think they are extremist, but let's be honest, most people associate their name with Cheistianity. I feel Christianity will always hve a sullied name until people realize that all Christians screw up...even majorly at times. Christians even commit crimes sometimes. That doesn't change our God. Hang on...more thoughts....
I don't disagree with that. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are like, "Oh look, the Christians effed up again." I think part of the reason covering stuff like this up is such a huge problem in Christianity in general, is because people are afraid of that kind of backlash.
I think another part of the problem is that Christians as a group (generally speaking of course) tend to be very judgmental and "holier than thou." Maybe if we were more open about our screw ups and spread the message of love, grace, and forgiveness instead of sweeping stuff under the rug and judging others' sins, we wouldn't be viewed as hypocrites.
I do understand what you're trying to say. We are just people and we screw up, I'm thankful for God's mercy and grace. But I also understand why it comes across as you defending the Duggars. Time and place maybe?
I'm on my way to a play date, but I'll be back on this afternoon.
Ok. I feel like I've gotten in this worm hole of defending them and that's really not my intent.
my initial intent was just to say it's very sad, should have been dealt with better, but also that it seems everyone has been waiting for them to fail and guess what they did! Of course they did. Because even Christians sin and commit crimes. But it's not something to revel in. It's very sad.
I'm don't think the punishment fit the crime, but his victims do say they have forgiven him and have all "moved on" whatever that means...so I'm not sure at what point they felt it relevant to divulge what had happened. But it seems like the victims didn't want it divulged, so it's sad. I think even for evil, there can be restoration.
I can not defend their stance on homosexuality. I don't support a lot of what they do. It's just sad that this is the face of Christianity and that everyone can tick another notch in the "we are better than Christians" pole because like kc's article...morality is not necessarily determined by religion.
I (and most Christians I think) try to also be morally good people. The crux of Christianity isn't our morality though...it's HIS forgiveness, even when we sin, even if we commit crimes. There are natural "worldy" consequences that didn't happen here and should have. Absolutely. There is also restoration that can occur and the victims say it has. So it's sad for them to have this brought to the forefront.
Ok. So. I think that's it. Please note I am not defending this. It was not handled well, I think him resigning his job is a good consequence (maybe not the only necessary consequence). I feel for those girls. My musings were just that it's not surprising that there are skeletons in their closet. And that having done serving terrible once, does not mean a person can not do good also.
Victims of sexual abuse tend to forgive at some point so they can let go of the things that are holding them back from healing. That does not negate the fact that he committed a crime and his family covered it up.
Ok. I feel like I've gotten in this worm hole of defending them and that's really not my intent.
my initial intent was just to say it's very sad, should have been dealt with better, but also that it seems everyone has been waiting for them to fail and guess what they did! Of course they did. Because even Christians sin and commit crimes. But it's not something to revel in. It's very sad.
I'm don't think the punishment fit the crime, but his victims do say they have forgiven him and have all "moved on" whatever that means...so I'm not sure at what point they felt it relevant to divulge what had happened. But it seems like the victims didn't want it divulged, so it's sad. I think even for evil, there can be restoration.
I can not defend their stance on homosexuality. I don't support a lot of what they do. It's just sad that this is the face of Christianity and that everyone can tick another notch in the "we are better than Christians" pole because like kc's article...morality is not necessarily determined by religion.
I (and most Christians I think) try to also be morally good people. The crux of Christianity isn't our morality though...it's HIS forgiveness, even when we sin, even if we commit crimes. There are natural "worldy" consequences that didn't happen here and should have. Absolutely. There is also restoration that can occur and the victims say it has. So it's sad for them to have this brought to the forefront.
Ok. So. I think that's it. Please note I am not defending this. It was not handled well, I think him resigning his job is a good consequence (maybe not the only necessary consequence). I feel for those girls. My musings were just that it's not surprising that there are skeletons in their closet. And that having done serving terrible once, does not mean a person can not do good also.
I haven't heard anyone express that the Duggar's are representative of all or most Christians. If anything, I think they're seen as an extremist group even within Christianity. I remember hearing that one of the daughter's husbands (a pastor, I think) said that he thinks JB and Michelle are extreme with not allowing kissing prior to marriage but he was honoring their wishes.
As a non-religious person what I see here is members of an extremist cult (I'm not sure I would even call them Christian honestly) yelling about sexual crimes while trying to prevent stones being thrown into their own glass house. They accuse gay and transgender people of being child molesters while knowing full well they have a child molester within their family who is gender normative and heterosexual. If nothing else, what happened with Josh should have shown them that their assumptions about who is or isn't a child molester clearly needs to be reexamined.
I take no glee in any of this. I'm devastated for those girls and also assume that more will be uncovered in that household that isn't healthy or moral or legal (I'm pretty sure they practice blanket training, which is considered abuse). I also don't believe that a pedophile can be reformed and don't think it's safe for him to have access to his siblings or his own children.
Ok. I feel like I've gotten in this worm hole of defending them and that's really not my intent.
my initial intent was just to say it's very sad, should have been dealt with better, but also that it seems everyone has been waiting for them to fail and guess what they did! Of course they did. Because even Christians sin and commit crimes. But it's not something to revel in. It's very sad.
I'm don't think the punishment fit the crime, but his victims do say they have forgiven him and have all "moved on" whatever that means...so I'm not sure at what point they felt it relevant to divulge what had happened. But it seems like the victims didn't want it divulged, so it's sad. I think even for evil, there can be restoration.
I can not defend their stance on homosexuality. I don't support a lot of what they do. It's just sad that this is the face of Christianity and that everyone can tick another notch in the "we are better than Christians" pole because like kc's article...morality is not necessarily determined by religion.
I (and most Christians I think) try to also be morally good people. The crux of Christianity isn't our morality though...it's HIS forgiveness, even when we sin, even if we commit crimes. There are natural "worldy" consequences that didn't happen here and should have. Absolutely. There is also restoration that can occur and the victims say it has. So it's sad for them to have this brought to the forefront.
Ok. So. I think that's it. Please note I am not defending this. It was not handled well, I think him resigning his job is a good consequence (maybe not the only necessary consequence). I feel for those girls. My musings were just that it's not surprising that there are skeletons in their closet. And that having done serving terrible once, does not mean a person can not do good also.
Sex offenders have some of the highest recidivism rates of any group of offenders. I don't believe pedophiles can change, or be redeemed. If I believed in hell. I'm pretty sure they'd all end up there. A fitting punishment would be jail. Lots of jail. Maybe desertion on a volcanic isle that's about to blow. But losing his job is definitely not punishment enough. He sexually assaulted a FOUR YEAR OLD GIRL. In her sleep. That was his little sister. There's no redemption for that kind of shit.
And just so I'm clear, I was not waiting for them to fail and I sure as hell do not feel any sort of vindication that they did. What happened to those girls is tragic and it makes me unspeakably angry that he will not be properly punished for what he did.
Post by rosesandpetals on May 28, 2015 11:41:02 GMT -5
I haven't caught up on this thread yet but I read that Jim Bob wanted to make incest punishable by death during his Senate bid. Anyone know if thats true? Talk about a hypocrite.
Victims of sexual abuse tend to forgive at some point so they can let go of the things that are holding them back from healing. That does not negate the fact that he committed a crime and his family covered it up.
Please stop.
I read where someone said he had admitted his crimes to his victims and apologized and they forgave him. Someone replied, "are we offering this option to everyone in prison now?" Yeah, sorry, sins are forgiven, crimes are punished.
I will say, I think he could have been a healthy, functional member of society if he had received the mental health help he clearly needed. But that ship has sailed. I like to think a 13 yo isn't doomed for life, but it doesn't matter because they just covered it up.
Honestly, I don't think most people think the Duggars are representative of Christianity. I think most, religious or not, realize they're an extremists at best, a cult at worst.
I think there is a portion of super conservative, fundamentalist types that do support and emulate their brand of belief. But that's a minority. They're just really loud right now.
I guess I have the right friends because I haven't seen or heard a single defensive comment in the last week. All of my Christian friends are in the same boat as most of us.
Re: forgiveness, I don't think we can say his victims have truly forgiven him no matter what statements the family makes. I just don't see how it's possible if the whole situation wasn't dealt with properly from the beginning. These girls didn't get real counseling. They continued to live with their molester who doesn't seem to show true remorse even years later.
Supposedly after the police report they were investigated by cps and then later josh sued cps? All of that is sealed of course.
This is hard to explain but for some people saying "I forgive you" is the only way to let go of the pain and continue healing. That doesn't mean they have to forget, and it certainly doesn't make it ok.
No one thinks the Duggars are representative of the whole God Squad but everyone does realize they are scary creepos and this incident is just the icing on how shitty they have been forever. If you don't believe that then you are just a scary creepo to me too.
This is hard to explain but for some people saying "I forgive you" is the only way to let go of the pain and continue healing. That doesn't mean they have to forget, and it certainly doesn't make it ok.
Does that make sense?
I understand what you are saying and that makes sense to me.
Obviously none of us know how those women feel now or how they felt then. And their upbringing is so extreme - I worry they were made to feel like it was their fault somehow.
This is hard to explain but for some people saying "I forgive you" is the only way to let go of the pain and continue healing. That doesn't mean they have to forget, and it certainly doesn't make it ok.
Does that make sense?
I understand what you are saying and that makes sense to me.
Obviously none of us know how those women feel now or how they felt then. And their upbringing is so extreme - I worry they were made to feel like it was their fault somehow.
Those poor girls are taught that their entire worth is tied to their purity. I can't imagine how all of this has affected them.
Post by lindsay9911 on May 29, 2015 9:08:04 GMT -5
It seriously BLOWS my mind that any Christian can start defending the actions of Josh or his family. I have a good friend who was raised in the Gothard cult and she had a lot of interesting information that really made me more disgusted with these parents even more. Gothard literature counsels these girls to examine themselves to see what they did to cause the abuse. It puts the blame on the victim and basically forces and guilts victims in "forgiveness". This cult is not one of grace or forgiveness so I find there statement a load of BS.
I was appalled by this situation before I read this and talked with my friend and all this information made this situation 1039 times worse. I hope this will shed light on this and help others that have suffered this same abuse within this disgusting cult.