How are guns not inherently dangerous? They are designed specifically to *be* dangerous. That is their whole purpose - they are weapons. That's like saying nuclear warheads aren't inherently dangerous.
A gun is just a hunk of metal until someone touches it and gives it a purpose. It is not going to shoot someone simply by existing.
Yeah, nothing EVER happens when a chunk of metal is being carried on someone's person, but when a gun is laying around it's another story...
How are guns not inherently dangerous? They are designed specifically to *be* dangerous. That is their whole purpose - they are weapons. That's like saying nuclear warheads aren't inherently dangerous.
A gun is just a hunk of metal until someone touches it and gives it a purpose. It is not going to shoot someone simply by existing.
This just sounds like a different way of saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." And I just can't get behind that. Guns serve the sole purpose of being used as weaponry.
And while I will never have kids, I would not hesitate to advise my niece and nephew to stay as far away as possible from someone with a gun.
I think that somebody who feels the need to carry a weapon into a grocery store (when they aren't LEO or security on the job) is doing so because of their issues, their fear, their problems.
I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why the fear exists. If you automatically assume anyone out of uniform with a gun is ready to go postal, it makes sense that you (general you) would avoid them like the plague, avoid that venue like the plague in case they return, and teach your children to do the same. Because for a while we had at least one daily thread about a gun incident of violence so we could all perpetuate this fear against every other completely normal person who carries responsibly and exercises their legal right to do so.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: not every person without a uniform who owns/carries guns is a quack ready to remove you from this earth.
No. I'm saying that it will not do anything until someone makes it. You are not going to get shot by looking at it, putting a finger on the barrel, or having it near you.
Okay. But nobody said you would. You could, however, very well get shot by that random guy with his AR-15 in Kroger who decides he's had enough today, or that guy who gets into an argument over a parking space with someone else and pulls out his gun and starts shooting wildly.
I'm not afraid of a gun sitting a counter with nobody around. I am, however, afraid of a gun being carried by a total stranger in public, knowing that there are basically no laws or regulations ensuring that he is trained, mentally stable, or has the slightest business having a firearm in the first place.
There are actually. Anyone who open/concealed carries must be registered and licensed. In most states, this includes a thorough background check, mental health screening, fingerprinting, and an extensive gun safety course. There are laws about when and where you can/cannot carry. I have seen police ask someone who was open carrying for their license and it was shown without issue.
I think that somebody who feels the need to carry a weapon into a grocery store (when they aren't LEO or security on the job) is doing so because of their issues, their fear, their problems.
I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why the fear exists. If you automatically assume anyone out of uniform with a gun is ready to go postal, it makes sense that you (general you) would avoid them like the plague, avoid that venue like the plague in case they return, and teach your children to do the same. Because for a while we had at least one daily thread about a gun incident of violence so we could all perpetuate this fear against every other completely normal person who carries responsibly and exercises their legal right to do so.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: not every person without a uniform who owns/carries guns is a quack ready to remove you from this earth.
But how do you know the difference? How do I know if that guy at the store is responsible and trained or mentally unstable and ready to start shooting?
Okay. But nobody said you would. You could, however, very well get shot by that random guy with his AR-15 in Kroger who decides he's had enough today, or that guy who gets into an argument over a parking space with someone else and pulls out his gun and starts shooting wildly.
I'm not afraid of a gun sitting a counter with nobody around. I am, however, afraid of a gun being carried by a total stranger in public, knowing that there are basically no laws or regulations ensuring that he is trained, mentally stable, or has the slightest business having a firearm in the first place.
There are actually. Anyone who open/concealed carries must be registered and licensed. In most states, this includes a thorough background check, mental health screening, fingerprinting, and an extensive gun safety course. There are laws about when and where you can/cannot carry. I have seen police ask someone who was open carrying for their license and it was shown without issue.
This is not true in Georgia, where I live. Even before our new "guns everywhere" law, the concealed carry permit process is a joke. I know because my H has one. You pay the fee, give fingerprints, they check to see if you're a convicted felon and if not, in a couple weeks, you've got your permit. No safety course or mental health assessment necessary.
And there are no regulations on open carry whatsoever. Anyone over 18 can open carry, no questions asked. In fact, it is ILLEGAL for the police to question you about it.
I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why the fear exists. If you automatically assume anyone out of uniform with a gun is ready to go postal, it makes sense that you (general you) would avoid them like the plague, avoid that venue like the plague in case they return, and teach your children to do the same. Because for a while we had at least one daily thread about a gun incident of violence so we could all perpetuate this fear against every other completely normal person who carries responsibly and exercises their legal right to do so.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: not every person without a uniform who owns/carries guns is a quack ready to remove you from this earth.
But how do you know the difference? How do I know if that guy at the store is responsible and trained or mentally unstable and ready to start shooting?
Yeah, nothing EVER happens when a chunk of metal is being carried on someone's person, but when a gun is laying around it's another story...
....
I said sitting there, not being carried. And if the person is being safe, they should not have a round in the chamber and he safety should be on.
Ah ha.. you have proven my point. People are not always safe, we can't guarantee that that women in store holding Cheerios next to her holstered weapon is safe. How do I know that? How is her carrying a gun any proof that she is not someone who is doing it wrong? Holster or not, guns are weapons that we don't need in public places. We need a community who doesn't look at protection from the public, but living in community.
But how do you know the difference? How do I know if that guy at the store is responsible and trained or mentally unstable and ready to start shooting?
You don't. But you don't know that of anyone.
Which is why it makes sense to be afraid of anyone with a gun.
I don't want to live in a society where the first line of defense to a threat is a gun waved at me. I don't, so I will continue to be part of groups that call for gun control and continue to publically speak out against guns in our public places.
I've asked this IRL and on here probably too many times, but I'll ask it again b/c it leads to the idea of trust, community, and fear. Are they carrying a gun (concealed or not) because they think they are a superhero who is going to save someone, because they are trained law enforcement in plain clothes, or because "you never know where another gun threat will come from and I have to be prepared?"
I honestly don't care why someone is carrying a gun. Why they are doing it doesn't matter. Because it makes them feel safer? Fine. Because they think there is a credible threat? Fine. Because they want to shoot up a bunch of people? Clearly not fine, but am I going to stick around long enough to find out? Hopefully not. The reality is that they have the legal right to carry that gun so long as they are licensed to do so. It is the law. The likelihood that they are going to suddenly find themselves with a screw loose and go on a rampage seems small.
Lastly, the bolded pisses me off beyond belief!!! Yeah, as soon as someone is carrying a gun, they are the dominant feature in public and THAT is why you are going to be nice to them?! No, carrying a gun shuts down normal public interaction with someone - you act different and treat them different. It's sort of like the people who carry automatic weapons into public to prove a point/protest, yes, they can do this, but rarely is someone, except law enforcement, going to confront them b/c they are carrying a gun and you DON'T KNOW THEIR MOTIVATION. They could be headed to shoot their X-wife or pissed off or a George Zimmerman type or just someone who wants to protest. Problem is the protest is VERY one-sided b/c they have now just changed how you, and most everyone else, acts around them intentionally. They didn't change your mind or persuade you with facts about violence going down when guns are pulled in self-defense, they just freaked everyone out and we left them alone.
OK, being extra nice to someone with gun is like being extra nice to a LEO. I don't trust anyone with a gun, regardless of their motives or authority. I don't want to be perceived as a threat. I'm not going out of my way to make friends, but plenty of people in this thread have alluded to giving people with guns wide berth. My comment is in the same vein.
Likely the person I see with a handgun in a holster at my grocery store or at the mall didn't just stop by for a quick run to grab some bread and milk or a pair of socks before going to shoot their ex. People who are planning on doing criminal things are not first out and about in society acting like a normal person going about their day.
The person who carries concealed does so because they feel that they are safer with a handgun. I do not feel that one is safer from bodily harm by carrying a gun. I also don't believe that anyone who chooses to carry concealed is inherently bent on causing harm to the general public. In fact most people who go out of their way to get a CHL and get trained on using a handgun feel they are providing a service.
I get where you're coming from but your post feels like you're attacking me for my opinions and I don't appreciate it.
Okay. But nobody said you would. You could, however, very well get shot by that random guy with his AR-15 in Kroger who decides he's had enough today, or that guy who gets into an argument over a parking space with someone else and pulls out his gun and starts shooting wildly.
I'm not afraid of a gun sitting a counter with nobody around. I am, however, afraid of a gun being carried by a total stranger in public, knowing that there are basically no laws or regulations ensuring that he is trained, mentally stable, or has the slightest business having a firearm in the first place.
There are actually. Anyone who open/concealed carries must be registered and licensed. In most states, this includes a thorough background check, mental health screening, fingerprinting, and an extensive gun safety course. There are laws about when and where you can/cannot carry. I have seen police ask someone who was open carrying for their license and it was shown without issue.
Also, thirty five states allow open carry without a permit. And four states allow concealed carry without a permit.
It might not be that this is a bad guy, I don't even think that he's a bad guy. He may think he's a VERY good guy, he may even be a good guy... but come the bad guy, am I going to get caught in the crossfire? How much training does this guy have? Does he know when NOT to shoot? Might the bad guy step it up a notch or two seeing that there's somebody here with a gun?
I don't assume that everybody with a gun is a bad guy. I don't FEAR everybody with a gun. But I KNOW that when there are guns around everybody is less safe. This isn't based on fear, but on the facts.
I'm not sure I understand the assumption that someone who carries a handgun on their person, concealed or open, is somehow unstable and to be feared. I certainly don't think they're bullies and that was an inappropriate character assumption up thread.
Living in Texas, you get to know a lot of people who carry concealed. I know several men and woman who have CHL and carry a handgun on their person. I also know that they regularly practice using their weapon at ranges and take classes on personal defense using a handgun. I don't feel unsafe that those people are going to suddenly freak their shit out and stay mass murdering people.
I'm not a gun proponent. I don't feel a need to carry a handgun for protection (or any other reason). I know myself well enough that even with practice and training I couldn't shoot to kill an intruder or person threatening me or my property. However, I don't feel unsafe or like I'm personally threatened because other people carry a handgun. Seeing it in the open doesn't change the fact that the guns are already out there in the first place.
If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm going to find the person with the gun and be extra nice. If I saw a person with a gun in a hip holster or a shoulder holster like the woman in the picture up thread, I don't think my first assumption would be that she was a threat just because she was wearing a side arm.
The thing is, you have absolutely no idea if that person in Kroger with an AR-15 is a responsible, trained gun owner or a total nutjob with mental issues who's going to start shooting the minute he feels threatened or upset. There's no way to know. And that is what is so frightening.
We have no idea about anyone we meet every damn day. We just don't. Seeing a gun on someone's person just adds to the immediate assumptions we might have. But seriously, it's not like uber dangerous people in our history were outlandishly obvious about how dangerous they were/are.
Also someone else's assertion that you can just assume, out of two people standing side-by-side, that the person without a gun is automatically more rational than the person with a gun is pretty indicative of how skewed the perception of Mr. Average Gun Owner in the country is. I can blame that on the NRA nutjobs and those who are stupid with their guns, just as I can blame it on the copious articles which make sure we stay afraid of all guns.
I'm also willing to bet Mr. Average Gun Owner who might be very responsible about his firearm is fully aware that, by exercising his right to carry it in public, he is among people who immediately assume he is crazycakes. But he goes out and about anyway because maybe the fact that he never does a fucking dangerous thing in public could reduce the stigma unfairly placed upon him.
How many people at Kroger have you see carrying an AR-15 or any other long gun?
I've got to be honest, I don't understand this argument, at all. WTF is the difference if they are carrying a long gun or a handgun? Neither serves any purpose at freaking Kroger.
Because she mentioned AR-15, so I pointed it out. Look, NO ONE NEEDS A GUN. One may argue that even LEO don't need guns. But need is not a prerequisite for exercising ones right in the 2nd amendment. Need is not a prerequisite for being allowed to apply for and obtain a CHL.
It might not be that this is a bad guy, I don't even think that he's a bad guy. He may think he's a VERY good guy, he may even be a good guy... but come the bad guy, am I going to get caught in the crossfire? How much training does this guy have? Does he know when NOT to shoot? Might the bad guy step it up a notch or two seeing that there's somebody here with a gun?
I don't assume that everybody with a gun is a bad guy. I don't FEAR everybody with a gun. But I KNOW that when there are guns around everybody is less safe. This isn't based on fear, but on the facts.
See also the armed citizen at the Gabby Giffords shooting who nearly shot the wrong man:
Good intentions, responsible gun owner, EXACTLY the kind of situation that people carry concealed for. But 1. he still couldn't stop the mass shooting and 2. he nearly shot more innocent people.
The thing is, you have absolutely no idea if that person in Kroger with an AR-15 is a responsible, trained gun owner or a total nutjob with mental issues who's going to start shooting the minute he feels threatened or upset. There's no way to know. And that is what is so frightening.
We have no idea about anyone we meet every damn day. We just don't. Seeing a gun on someone's person just adds to the immediate assumptions we might have. But seriously, it's not like uber dangerous people in our history were outlandishly obvious about how dangerous they were/are.
Also someone else's assertion that you can just assume, out of two people standing side-by-side, that the person without a gun is automatically more rational than the person with a gun is pretty indicative of how skewed the perception of Mr. Average Gun Owner in the country is. I can blame that on the NRA nutjobs and those who are stupid with their guns, just as I can blame it on the copious articles which make sure we stay afraid of all guns.
I'm also willing to bet Mr. Average Gun Owner who might be very responsible about his firearm is fully aware that, by exercising his right to carry it in public, he is among people who immediately assume he is crazycakes. But he goes out and about anyway because maybe the fact that he never does a fucking dangerous thing in public could reduce the stigma unfairly placed upon him.
/back to work I go
I'm not saying that people without guns can't be dangerous too. That's a false comparison.
If someone is walking around the grocery with a hand grenade or a rabid dog foaming at the mouth, I'm going to assume they're a bigger threat to my safety than someone without those things. It's not that I don't think anything else could also be a threat, but it makes complete sense to be most wary of the person with a deadly weapon.
It might not be that this is a bad guy, I don't even think that he's a bad guy. He may think he's a VERY good guy, he may even be a good guy... but come the bad guy, am I going to get caught in the crossfire? How much training does this guy have? Does he know when NOT to shoot? Might the bad guy step it up a notch or two seeing that there's somebody here with a gun?
I don't assume that everybody with a gun is a bad guy. I don't FEAR everybody with a gun. But I KNOW that when there are guns around everybody is less safe. This isn't based on fear, but on the facts.
See also the armed citizen at the Gabby Giffords shooting who nearly shot the wrong man:
Good intentions, responsible gun owner, EXACTLY the kind of situation that people carry concealed for. But 1. he still couldn't stop the mass shooting and 2. he nearly shot more innocent people.
Again though, not everyone who has a gun is going to use it. My husband wouldn't use it unless there was direct bodily injury imminent to myself or our daughter and nothing else is working (flee/hide/etc). He's not just going to start shooting at the aggressor with people all around who could be injured.
Which is why it makes sense to be afraid of anyone with a gun.
Anyone with a gun, or anyone out of uniform with a gun?
Anyone with a gun who I have absolutely no idea whether or not they've gone through any sort of training, psychological assessment, or background check.
Good intentions, responsible gun owner, EXACTLY the kind of situation that people carry concealed for. But 1. he still couldn't stop the mass shooting and 2. he nearly shot more innocent people.
Again though, not everyone who has a gun is going to use it. My husband wouldn't use it unless there was direct bodily injury imminent to myself or our daughter and nothing else is working (flee/hide/etc). He's not just going to start shooting at the aggressor with people all around who could be injured.
But again, how do I know whether or not a total stranger is going to use it? That is my point. You know your husband is responsible and isn't going to just start shooting, but how do I know that?
The thing is, you have absolutely no idea if that person in Kroger with an AR-15 is a responsible, trained gun owner or a total nutjob with mental issues who's going to start shooting the minute he feels threatened or upset. There's no way to know. And that is what is so frightening.
We have no idea about anyone we meet every damn day. We just don't. Seeing a gun on someone's person just adds to the immediate assumptions we might have. But seriously, it's not like uber dangerous people in our history were outlandishly obvious about how dangerous they were/are.
Also someone else's assertion that you can just assume, out of two people standing side-by-side, that the person without a gun is automatically more rational than the person with a gun is pretty indicative of how skewed the perception of Mr. Average Gun Owner in the country is. I can blame that on the NRA nutjobs and those who are stupid with their guns, just as I can blame it on the copious articles which make sure we stay afraid of all guns.
I'm also willing to bet Mr. Average Gun Owner who might be very responsible about his firearm is fully aware that, by exercising his right to carry it in public, he is among people who immediately assume he is crazycakes. But he goes out and about anyway because maybe the fact that he never does a fucking dangerous thing in public could reduce the stigma unfairly placed upon him.
/back to work I go
not that every person with a gun is less rational than somebody without a gun... but context matters.
if you're in a grocery store... YES the person without the gun is probably dealing with the threat level in your local Safeway in a more rational way.
And, to a certain extent, I don't give a ratsass why the person with the gun has a gun. Are they carrying because they've been threatened? Greaaaaaaat... then what happens to the bystanders when the threatener sees them in the frozen foods aisle? Are they carrying because they think that they can protect themselves and those around them from bad guys? Greaaaaaat... the statistical likelihood is that they or an innocent will end up getting shot. Are they carrying because they just want to exercise their second amendment rights? Greaaaaaaat.... Can I exercise some of mine, too?
If you're out deer hunting, and there's a person with a gun and one without... I'd think the person with the gun is more rational. It has nothing to do with the fact of the gun and everything to do with the fact that I don't expect a gunfight to break out in Target.
I am not attacking you, I am saying I don't agree. I am pissed off that we change how we interact in public with others when a gun is present, not at you. It's human nature to act differently and so that person who is carrying a gun is, subconsciously I hope, intimidating those around them.
Plus, if we don't continue to try to get more regulations for gun ownership and carry in public, and brush all of this off on "it's their right," we normalize carrying guns in society. As evidenced by the increased numbers of "accidents" and stand-your-ground actions, normalizing is not good b/c more and more people will carry to protect against others who carry and more "accidents" and stand-your-ground actions over road rage or other silly things will occur. We are not making our communities safer by over-arming our citizens or police, so I will continue to believe that carrying a gun in public is a bit selfish and try to support laws that limit that ability.
This thread also demonstrates that people have this false perception that there are lots of gun control laws out there, that you can only carry a gun if you've gone through background checks and training, that people who have guns also know how to use them and have had safety instruction. It's not true. It may be true in a few states, but it's not true in the vast majority of states.
I really think that if more people actually knew just how lax our gun laws are in this country - that it's perfectly legal to sell your gun to a complete stranger in a parking lot who may or may not be a convicted felon, who may or may not have gotten out of a mental hospital that morning, or that in at least one state, a 16 year old can carry a concealed weapon without a permit and without any sort of parental permission - they would have a different opinion about guns in America.
Between this, the shrill OMG THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS WANT in the Duggar thread, to all republican candidates are whackjobs who want women to carry rape babies to all the other threads that make it completely impossible to have a rational conversation on anything of substance around here, I need another break.
A huge long ass break from the echo chamber that is this fucking board.
I think that somebody who feels the need to carry a weapon into a grocery store (when they aren't LEO or security on the job) is doing so because of their issues, their fear, their problems.
I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why the fear exists. If you automatically assume anyone out of uniform with a gun is ready to go postal, it makes sense that you (general you) would avoid them like the plague, avoid that venue like the plague in case they return, and teach your children to do the same.
I don't think momi is saying that everyone with a gun is ready to go postal. I think she is saying that firearm carriers have fears of the nameless and ubiquitous "something" that "might happen" which necessitates their carrying weapons in the first place.
I would like all guns banned for the general public. I see no reason to have a gun. Ever. You want to hunt? Fine. Learn to use a bow and arrow (you think I'm being facetious, but I'm not.)
But I live in the real world. I live in a heavily pro-gun state. I'm dealing with the reality of living in a state where people have guns, concealed or not. I make my feelings known. I write to my congress people. I speak out about gun control issues. What else am I supposed to do?
I'll tell you what I'm NOT going to do. I'm not going to spend my days being fearful that someone next to me in the checkout line as a gun on them. They probably do. That is out of my control. It doesn't stop me from living my life without fear though.
This thread also demonstrates that people have this false perception that there are lots of gun control laws out there, that you can only carry a gun if you've gone through background checks and training, that people who have guns also know how to use them and have had safety instruction. It's not true. It may be true in a few states, but it's not true in the vast majority of states.
I really think that if more people actually knew just how lax our gun laws are in this country - that it's perfectly legal to sell your gun to a complete stranger in a parking lot who may or may not be a convicted felon, who may or may not have gotten out of a mental hospital that morning, or that in at least one state, a 16 year old can carry a concealed weapon without a permit and without any sort of parental permission - they would have a different opinion about guns in America.
Back when I lived in Massachusetts, and they had hard core gun control laws, I would have made VERY different assumptions of somebody I saw out with a gun. They would be licensed and their licensure would mean something.