Post by curbsideprophet on Aug 27, 2015 12:51:06 GMT -5
I know enough to know that I do not have the knowledge needed to homeschool. Could I learn it if absolutely need be, probably. That does not sound at all appealing to me though.
if you are doing it right, I would think some minor oversites would not be a problem.
My question to homeschooling advocates is this: how do you propose that these cases be prevented? And do you strongly believe that your right to school your children however you please, with whatever standards (or not) you please, outweighs these children's right to have some sort of protection from abuse?
Or are you in the mindset of the HSLDA that what happens to other people's children is of zero concern to you and if children are being abused and killed, well, it's not your kids so it doesn't matter?
The answer to your second question is no, which is why I feel do strongly about abortion. If we're really worried about children being killed by their parents, homeschooling parents are just a fraction of the problem.
In Ohio homeschoolers have two options. They can notify with the state and submit curricula. Each year when they submit they also have to submit an assessment from the previous year (either test scores or approval from licensed teacher).
Or they can form their own non-chartered, non-tax school. Parents must gave at least a bachelors and notify their school district that their kids are attending a private school each year. No assessments are required.
We obviously choose the latter. While governmemt has no oversight on my curricula and results, they are aware that there are school-aged children in my home. My children are not unaccounted for.
I have no problem with notifying the government that my kids are home. I just think what I teach is none of their business.
I have a hard time believing that a child can go years being starved without someone - an extended fsmily member, a person driving by the house, a stranger in thr grocery store - recognizing there is a problem. Of course, the child could be kept from ever leaving the house, but even then, a test that is taken online and submitted yearly to a school district isn't going to show ant kind of abuse.
The answer is at a community level. We have systems in place to deal with abuse. People need to keep their eyes open and look for signs. I have a hard te believing that a teenager who had probably been rummaging through dumpsters for years had never been noticed. If people looked up from their phones once in a while and observed what is going on around them, these kids may be saved.
Like I said, assessments won't solve this. It will just erode the rights of the people doing it right. I know bad honeschoolers. There are licensed teachers willing to sign off on doctored assessments for money. These teachers are well-known in homeschholimg communitites. The abusers are going to get away with it even with government regulation.
In response to your comments I bolded, you have heard of Ariel Castro, haven't you? And no, an on-line test won't solve that, but in-person evaluations done at a public school, or having the requirement of a yearly well-child physical, conducted by an individual certified by the state (and hell, even make the state pay for it) would very likely solve that.
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected.
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
Obviously the systems in place to spot abuse aren't working. But yeah, fuck all of those children. It's not my fault; it's their neighbors' and grocery store clerks' fault that they are being abused because they don't pay enough attention.
Well people are already getting away with stealing/murder/rape/abuse/embezzlement, and these extra precautions are just annoying and people will still get away with it. Why even bother?
My question to homeschooling advocates is this: how do you propose that these cases be prevented? And do you strongly believe that your right to school your children however you please, with whatever standards (or not) you please, outweighs these children's right to have some sort of protection from abuse?
Or are you in the mindset of the HSLDA that what happens to other people's children is of zero concern to you and if children are being abused and killed, well, it's not your kids so it doesn't matter?
The answer to your second question is no, which is why I feel do strongly about abortion. If we're really worried about children being killed by their parents, homeschooling parents are just a fraction of the problem.
How does this answer ttt's question? What does abortion have to do with homeschooled children being abused?
My question to homeschooling advocates is this: how do you propose that these cases be prevented? And do you strongly believe that your right to school your children however you please, with whatever standards (or not) you please, outweighs these children's right to have some sort of protection from abuse?
Or are you in the mindset of the HSLDA that what happens to other people's children is of zero concern to you and if children are being abused and killed, well, it's not your kids so it doesn't matter?
I have no problem with notifying the government that my kids are home. I just think what I teach is none of their business.
I have a hard time believing that a child can go years being starved without someone - an extended fsmily member, a person driving by the house, a stranger in thr grocery store - recognizing there is a problem. Of course, the child could be kept from ever leaving the house, but even then, a test that is taken online and submitted yearly to a school district isn't going to show ant kind of abuse.
The answer is at a community level. We have systems in place to deal with abuse. People need to keep their eyes open and look for signs. I have a hard te believing that a teenager who had probably been rummaging through dumpsters for years had never been noticed. If people looked up from their phones once in a while and observed what is going on around them, these kids may be saved.
Those "systems" you describe require mandated reporters with specialized training. Not just some neighbor/extended family member with little to no training hopefully seeing something, and not being shooed away by an abusive parent who does not want to get caught.
Look, for the most part I am ok with like, MOST homeschooling set ups.
But it is reasonable for the state to look at homeschooling families and say something to the effect of "Look, we KNOW whether the people in the mainstream schooling system are meeting certain education standards. But since we don't see your kids, we don't know that your kids will have any freaking idea about anything come 18. So you have to show your work."
And yes, homeschool families need to be a part of the "systems in place." to SPOT abuse/neglect/desperate circumstances. This means exposure to mandated reporters such as a doctor. Its really not the end of the world to say "Homeschool kids need a checkup once a year."
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected.
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
Most state statutes on these types of "forms" require the form to be signed off on by very specific provider types: MD, DO, PA-C, RNP, etc.
How is it a punishment? Are you really advocating that at 18 your kid just waltzes off to college with a "Yep! Take my word for it, I'm educated!" without so much as a GED provided by the state?
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected.
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
Please don't teach argumentation. "People will break the law so we might as well not pass it!" is (yet another) logical fallacy.
See also: the majority of the anti-gun control arguments.
My question to homeschooling advocates is this: how do you propose that these cases be prevented? And do you strongly believe that your right to school your children however you please, with whatever standards (or not) you please, outweighs these children's right to have some sort of protection from abuse?
Or are you in the mindset of the HSLDA that what happens to other people's children is of zero concern to you and if children are being abused and killed, well, it's not your kids so it doesn't matter?
The answer to your second question is no, which is why I feel do strongly about abortion. If we're really worried about children being killed by their parents, homeschooling parents are just a fraction of the problem.
Ok, even giving you this point, its still a fraction that can be addressed. Why not address it?
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected.
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
Please don't teach argumentation. "People will break the law so we might as well not pass it!" is (yet another) logical fallacy.
See also: the majority of the anti-gun control arguments.
Hey, this is a pretty good argument against banning abortion, though!
Those hoors will get abortions anyway, so why bother banning it? I believe I just proved that AW is pro-choice.
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected. I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
I don't understand this logic. If abusers will always have a way to get around the law and there's no way to prevent abuse, then why even have a law at all?
No law is perfect, but saying it's better to just not have laws at all is...baffling.
And honestly, I was pretty much in favor of homeschooling (not for my family but for those who do it in a thoughtful and thorough manner) until I started reading about the things that these homeschooling advocates are pushing for. That group has made me seriously reconsider my stance on it.
Homeschoolers make up such a small portion if society. Even smaller us the number of abusive homeschoolers. I feel like these few cases of neglect are used every year to psint sll homeschoolers as bad and to further the snti-homeschooling agenda. It's like people uding PP videos to take down abortion. Using extremes to take away law-abiding citizens' rights.
Every year we hear a few stories in the news about publuc school teachers abusing children, too. When they are caught, they are prosecuted. When abusive parents are caught, they are prosecuted. But abuse always falls through the cracks.
Because certain teachers are pedophiles and abusers, should all teachers be subject to surveillancein the classroom and intrusive searches into their home life (I was part of ghe fight against mandated CPS evaluations in all homeschoolers' homes a few years ago in Ohio). No. Public teachers are subject to the background checks of their employers. As a homeschool parent I'm not asking to be employed by anyone. I don't need a license to be a parent. The Constitution guarantees my right to homeschool as religious freedom. The government can stay out of my business and spend their energy on fixing the current system that is failing these kids due to a lack if resources.
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected.
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
How is oversight 'punishment'? Per your definition, does this mean all laws are punishment?
You know what, let's scrap all the laws. Let's just make a blanket assumption everyone is a law-abider. I'm tired of laws! I don't wanna be inconvenienced by them anymore! DOWN WITH LAWS! I AM A LAW ABIDER, BECAUSE I SAY I AM A LAW ABIDER!
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
Please reassure me this isn't something you're teaching your child...
The irony is also not lost on me about the numbers of homeschoolers increasing so they don't have to comply with "being punished" by public education vaccine requirements. Which, ya know, should be criminal and considered abuse.
LOL that all the fetuses have a right to life that the state must protect, but actual children's right to education is apparently dependent entirely on what their parents think should be provided and the state better back the fuck off.*
*Ironically, I get riled about how far the state goes in education and infringing on what I see as parental decisions, but seriously. Kids are entitled to education. Since they can't ensure that they get that themselves, the state does have a role to play in ensuring they are being educated. Get over it.
sparkythelawyer no I am advocating for the current system which allows colleges and universities to decide on their own whether or not kids are prepared. We all know a government school transcript isn't a good indicator that kids know everything they need to know at 18. Kids graduate barely literate in some districts.
Colleges can decide on their own admission policies - SAT scores, interviews, entrance exams, portfolios of work, whatever.
Homeschoolers make up such a small portion if society. Even smaller us the number of abusive homeschoolers. I feel like these few cases of neglect are used every year to psint sll homeschoolers as bad and to further the snti-homeschooling agenda. It's like people uding PP videos to take down abortion. Using extremes to take away law-abiding citizens' rights.
Every year we hear a few stories in the news about publuc school teachers abusing children, too. When they are caught, they are prosecuted. When abusive parents are caught, they are prosecuted. But abuse always falls through the cracks.
Because certain teachers are pedophiles and abusers, should all teachers be subject to surveillancein the classroom and intrusive searches into their home life (I was part of ghe fight against mandated CPS evaluations in all homeschoolers' homes a few years ago in Ohio). No. Public teachers are subject to the background checks of their employers. As a homeschool parent I'm not asking to be employed by anyone. I don't need a license to be a parent. The Constitution guarantees my right to homeschool as religious freedom. The government can stay out of my business and spend their energy on fixing the current system that is failing these kids due to a lack if resources.
But see, almost nobody in this thread is actually advocating that homeschooling should be illegal.
What they are saying, however, is that there is a risk with this particular subset of society of harm due to isolation. Isn't it worth it, especially for someone who is so determinedly trying to circle this back to abortion and "protecting the life of a child" to protect these children by making sure there is some outside observation by a mandated reporter? Isn't it worth it, to "protect that child" to make sure that they actually ARE receiving an education, and not just sitting around all day in dire straits?
And homeschooled students are rising in numbers quickly. It was estimated that there was approximately 1.8 million students in the US being homeschooled in 2011 alone. That number is rising.
tl;dr No improvements can be made. Ever. Homeschooling is perfection. Abuse? C'es la vie. It happens elsewhere, and my parents didn't teach me that people can have multiple priorities so no one else can either. So since we can only pick one, focus on the public school system instead.
lurkingaw, are there a lot of older kids in your homeschool co-opt or parents of kids that have graduated from homeschooling and have either entered college or a professional workforce? how are those kids doing? have they felt they were given every opportunity to learn and fit in, in the real world?
I see a mix. I have friends who are second-generation homeschoolers and they loved their experience. They attended college and have nothing bad to say about their experience. My BFF was homeschooled and chose not to do it with her kids. She feels she received a good efucation, but that it isn't the lifestyle for her. Her parents were also heavily involved in ATI and she has hang-ups about that.
But I know public and private school graduates who hated their experiences or felt ill-prepared for life also. They chose to homeschool for those reasons.
Homeschooling is nothing like it used to be when we were kids though. The network and resources available are amazing now.
Homeschoolers make up such a small portion if society. Even smaller us the number of abusive homeschoolers. I feel like these few cases of neglect are used every year to psint sll homeschoolers as bad and to further the snti-homeschooling agenda. It's like people uding PP videos to take down abortion. Using extremes to take away law-abiding citizens' rights.
Every year we hear a few stories in the news about publuc school teachers abusing children, too. When they are caught, they are prosecuted. When abusive parents are caught, they are prosecuted. But abuse always falls through the cracks.
Because certain teachers are pedophiles and abusers, should all teachers be subject to surveillancein the classroom and intrusive searches into their home life (I was part of ghe fight against mandated CPS evaluations in all homeschoolers' homes a few years ago in Ohio). No. Public teachers are subject to the background checks of their employers. As a homeschool parent I'm not asking to be employed by anyone. I don't need a license to be a parent. The Constitution guarantees my right to homeschool as religious freedom. The government can stay out of my business and spend their energy on fixing the current system that is failing these kids due to a lack if resources.
But at least there is SOME sort of oversight in public schools - principals and school psychologist often observe classes, so could spot teacher abuse. Kids in public schools are seen by several different teachers throughout the day. There's a LOT more opportunity to spot potential abuse, whether the abuse is caused by teachers or parents.
I just don't see, and will never see, how it's so awful and intrusive to have SOME sort of evaluation of your kids once a year.
The way it currently works, parents just have to submit info from the doctor, right? It's nor like the school district holds its own physical exams where wvery child is present. Medical forms could easily be faked in the same way. First, there would be the question of what counts as a legit doctor. I think there have been cases with vaccine forms where certain doctors or chiros are willing to falsify info. Does the Christian Science fairh healer (who is covered by insurance) count as someone who can sign off on medical forms? If not, there's a whole religious liberty issue yo desl with. And if they and any other healer can count, forms can be filled out without abuse being detected.
I think criminals and abusers will always have a way to get around the law. So why punish the law-abiders?
Yeah. Except they show up at school. Where lots of people actually, physically, see them. Ding, ding, ding.
Homeschoolers make up such a small portion if society. Even smaller us the number of abusive homeschoolers. I feel like these few cases of neglect are used every year to psint sll homeschoolers as bad and to further the snti-homeschooling agenda. It's like people uding PP videos to take down abortion. Using extremes to take away law-abiding citizens' rights.
Every year we hear a few stories in the news about publuc school teachers abusing children, too. When they are caught, they are prosecuted. When abusive parents are caught, they are prosecuted. But abuse always falls through the cracks.
Because certain teachers are pedophiles and abusers, should all teachers be subject to surveillancein the classroom and intrusive searches into their home life (I was part of ghe fight against mandated CPS evaluations in all homeschoolers' homes a few years ago in Ohio). No. Public teachers are subject to the background checks of their employers. As a homeschool parent I'm not asking to be employed by anyone. I don't need a license to be a parent. The Constitution guarantees my right to homeschool as religious freedom. The government can stay out of my business and spend their energy on fixing the current system that is failing these kids due to a lack if resources.
At my daughter's school the teachers are on video feed and have observation booths for all rooms except bathrooms which no student is allowed to have an unaccompanied adult with them in (if a child needs assistance they have to use the bathroom with the door open so that the other staffers can be aware) because as it serves a 50% SN population and the risk of abuse in that group is insanely high due to their inability to self report they are proactively taken precautions to reduce the risk to the children. That is no different then what the homeschool population is like. while many home school parents are fine because these children are not exposed to mandated reporters regularly which puts them at greater risk it makes moral and legal sense to protect them by adding an additional layer of protection by requiring them to be checked on by a mandated reporter (doctor/teacher/social worker) yearly to make them safer.
LOL that all the fetuses have a right to life that the state must protect, but actual children's right to education is apparently dependent entirely on what their parents think should be provided and the state better back the fuck off.*
*Ironically, I get riled about how far the state goes in education and infringing on what I see as parental decisions, but seriously. Kids are entitled to education. Since they can't ensure that they get that themselves, the state does have a role to play in ensuring they are being educated. Get over it.
Even better, it's not the "government's business" what her children's level of education/proficiency is, but the government can (and should) be all up in my uterus and reproductive choices.