This is all driven by religion, not logic or reason. Political decision making driven by religious beliefs.
Does anyone even know of an atheist or an agnostic who supports abortion bans?
I feel like my head is going to explode when I read this stuff. Heartbreaking. Infuriating. Frightening.
Yes, I do. There are anti choice atheists. There are also atheist mras. I'm sure it's a lesser percentage than among fundagelicals, but people do have various reasons for being opposed.
I can actually see abortion as a moral issue vs. purely religious (though undoubtedly the religious are far more anti-choice than the non-religious). There are many people who have no religion that still believe life begins at conception or that are against the idea of terminating another life, no matter what stage it's in. I can actually understand someone who is not religious being against abortion more than someone who is not religious being against, say, homosexuality which really has no argument against it besides a religious one.
I'm trying not to make this a 17-page long debate.
For all classification purposes, I am pro-life but I see abortion as not cut and dry but 2 separate theories that affect each other. 1) How we define life 2) A women's choice.
My theories of life are based from religion, science and inconsistencies in law.
I'm trying not to make this a 17-page long debate.
For all classification purposes, I am pro-life but I see abortion as not cut and dry but 2 separate theories that affect each other. 1) How we define life 2) A women's choice.
My theories of life are based from religion, science and inconsistencies in law.
I'm a little confused on what you're saying here. Are you pro-life? Or do you believe in a woman's choice? I don't understand how a woman's choice is a theory.
For me, a life trumps choice; inside and outside the womb. But I understand better why some choose abortion (e.g., this article).
I state it's a theory because the foundation of choice is that it should not do harm to others. Whether or not an abortion does "harm" can be debated.
I'm a little confused on what you're saying here. Are you pro-life? Or do you believe in a woman's choice? I don't understand how a woman's choice is a theory.
For me, a life trumps choice; inside and outside the womb. But I understand better why some choose abortion (e.g., this article).
I state it's a theory because the foundation of choice is that it should not do harm to others. Whether or not an abortion does "harm" can be debated.
The thing is, legally speaking, there is no way to recognize a fetus as a "person" to whom harm can be done without necessarily making a pregnant woman legally less than a full person.
For me, a life trumps choice; inside and outside the womb. But I understand better why some choose abortion (e.g., this article).
I state it's a theory because the foundation of choice is that it should not do harm to others. Whether or not an abortion does "harm" can be debated.
The thing is, legally speaking, there is no way to recognize a fetus as a "person" to whom harm can be done without necessarily making a pregnant woman legally less than a full person.
When the fetus is a "person", is the argument for life. If we define loosing a choice means your less than a person, than that could be said for many things in our society.
But also legally speaking, fetuses can be reconigized as a person. If a mother is Murdered, the murderer can be charged with 2 counts. The law is not consistent.
What I'm getting at is that life and choice are 2 distinct arguments. Their often grouped. For you personally, when do you define life?
centralsquare I tell people I miscarried too. I feel weird about the lie. I am really open about it places like this but not IRL. It's hypocritical of me because I am very vocally pro choice but have have to be public about my experience.
@cookiemonster03, I'm sorry for your loss -- and for feeling like you have to hide it. It feels hypocritical to me as well, but I know I have to protect myself first and be vocal second. I have been very vocal about abortion access, and those following along at home can likely guess why. But I haven't come out on FB and said it specifically.
Fwiw, I found telling people "we lost the baby" or "we had a nonviable pregnancy" made me feel like I was being more up front than specifying a miscarriage. I hate it when people assume I miscarried, b/c it doesn't at all represent the hell and anguish of being the one who made the decision. I don't in any way thing a m/c is easy, but sometimes I feel it would have been "lucky" if it resolved without my having a hand in it.
At the same time, I feel confident that we made the merciful choice. If this were a brain dead living person on life support, most wouldn't bat an eye and would praise us for donating organs and saving lives. When it's a brain dead fetus, people go crazy in protest, even though that life is not a life and fetal tissue saves lives (and I imagine that research ultimately saves more lives than one person's organs.)
/rant
One day I will be courageous enough (and less afraid of exposing myself to pain from loved ones who judge me) to speak out about this to anyone and everyone. I will say, the 20 or so friends/family I have told have been INCREDIBLY supportive and nonjudgmental, which is encouraging.
Thank you for giving me a safe space to talk about it here.
Post by tacosforlife on Sept 22, 2015 10:03:54 GMT -5
centralsquare, I am glad the people you have chosen to talk about this with IRL have been supportive. I understand (as best I can) why you use vague terms in talking to others. As you said, you have to protect yourself. I cannot imagine the pain you have endured, and the thought of anyone judging or condemning you for the choice you made is enraging.
Post by penguingrrl on Sept 22, 2015 10:20:42 GMT -5
I just want to send hugs to those in here who have experienced losses. I can't imagine the pain of having to experience that and then to also have to hide the truth from loved ones for fear of judgement. I'm sorry for all you ladies (and your partners) have been through.
I cannot get past calling a woman's choice a theory. Theory = a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something. Choice = an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
If you want to call when life begins a theory, then fine. That is a debate. But to call a woman's choice a theory is downright degrading. Does that idea of a theory change when a woman has to make a choice of whether or not to have a double mastectomy if she has breast cancer? Or when a man has to decide to have his prostate removed when faced with prostate cancer?
This is all driven by religion, not logic or reason. Political decision making driven by religious beliefs.
Does anyone even know of an atheist or an agnostic who supports abortion bans?
I feel like my head is going to explode when I read this stuff. Heartbreaking. Infuriating. Frightening.
Yes, actually. We have a former poster, pgh, who is atheist and pro-life. While I don't think that's the norm, she isn't a unicorn.
Thank you. I have literally never encountered such a person so in my world they are unicorns! I'd be very interested to pick someone's brain who holds these beliefs.
Post by dawnzersong on Sept 22, 2015 10:49:44 GMT -5
It's not about when life begins, it's about when personhood begins. Sperm and egg cells are living things with human DNA before they merge to form a zygote, but you'd have a hard time finding anyone claiming that they are human beings with all the rights of personhood. Deciding that personhood begins at conception is no less arbitrary than deciding it begins at birth, since the foundation of that determination is factually incorrect.
ETA: And whether a person can be charged with murder for committing a violent crime that results in the death of a fetus varies by jurisdiction. In many states, the perpetrator can be held responsible for crimes against the mother only.
The thing is, legally speaking, there is no way to recognize a fetus as a "person" to whom harm can be done without necessarily making a pregnant woman legally less than a full person.
When the fetus is a "person", is the argument for life. If we define loosing a choice means your less than a person, than that could be said for many things in our society.
But also legally speaking, fetuses can be reconigized as a person. If a mother is Murdered, the murderer can be charged with 2 counts. The law is not consistent.
What I'm getting at is that life and choice are 2 distinct arguments. Their often grouped. For you personally, when do you define life?
ttt was speaking from a constitutional perspective on the "less" point. It's not a reflection on society. It's that treating a fetus as life that trumps all, you just ARE taking away a woman's rights.
Also, whether someone who kills a pregnant woman is charged with 1 or 2 counts or murder varies greatly with jurisdiction, iirc.
Honestly, the older I get, the more militant I am becoming about my pro-choice stance. When I was running around having pre-marital sex, being pro-choice was a somewhat selfish thing...no fucking way was a baby going to be interfering with my law school plans, ya know? I mean sure, there was the whole big picture aspect of it, people who couldn't afford a kid at that point in their lives, or rape victims, or what have you, but really, to a large degree, it just boiled down to me not wanting a kid at that point in time, so go fuck yourself, TYVM.
As I've grown older, and have been confronted with real life examples of people who need abortions, people that don't fit the stereotype of a young woman with graduate school plans and a broken condom, and it's absolutely heartbreaking. Stories like the ones that are shared here are good reminders of why these rights are so needed. It's sad that in our society today, a young woman's ability to define her own life is not enough of a reason to convince the public to make these rights sacrosanct, but I hope that brave people who put their heart wrenching personal, private decisions out there like this can change minds.
So thank you to those of you who are coming forward, and know that you are inspiring at least one more additional donation to PP from me by doing so.
Post by tacosforlife on Sept 22, 2015 11:49:02 GMT -5
ESF, I have had a similar progression in my thinking. I've been growing slowly more militant, and over the last year, it's ramped up. We are probably going to TTC in a year or two. I'm staring down the barrel of being a 36-year-old - or older - first-time mom. And I know that the risks of something going wrong, while still small, go up the closer I get to 40. And the idea that some man in Congress who has never met me can decide my family's future is truly horrifying.
I don't think politicians should be able to have a say in something that they don't understand. Woman and their family's should be able to have a say in what happens to a woman's body not the government. I couldn't imagine making that decision after a doctor tells you the child that you're so excited to bring into this world will never survive the pregnancy let alone the next few weeks.
I couldn't imagine being the woman who carries a baby to term because the government told me it was illegal to terminate. All those people who want to touch your belly, ask you about EDD, the gender of the child, is the name chosen yet? I couldn't last 1 day like that.
@cookiemonster03- it was hard enough people wanting to touch my stomach after my 15 week loss and I had to tell them I miscarried. What would you say if you were 34 weeks and someone was asking all those questions I mentioned above? "The government sucks, my babies dying and I can't do anything about it?"
I couldn't imagine being the woman who carries a baby to term because the government told me it was illegal to terminate. All those people who want to touch your belly, ask you about EDD, the gender of the child, is the name chosen yet? I couldn't last 1 day like that.
My sister went through this. She found out at 23 weeks that her son was missing most of his internal organs and had no hope of surviving. At the time, she wasn't comfortable terminating, so she carried him for four more weeks, until they induced her at 27 weeks. They got to spend about ten minutes with him before he passed- had she been forced to carry him to term, he likely would have died in utero. She still says those four weeks were some of the worst she has ever gone through, and if she had it to do over again, she'd terminate the minute they got an "incompatible with life" diagnosis
Fuck anyone who wants to try and tell someone they have to go through that, that they don't even have a choice
I couldn't imagine being the woman who carries a baby to term because the government told me it was illegal to terminate. All those people who want to touch your belly, ask you about EDD, the gender of the child, is the name chosen yet? I couldn't last 1 day like that.
Fuck anyone who wants to try and tell someone they have to go through that, that they don't even have a choice
I am so sorry that she went through that. I don't know if I could make the decision to terminate right away after getting the diagnosis. So many hugs to your family. I am glad though that she got to meet her baby.
The thing is, legally speaking, there is no way to recognize a fetus as a "person" to whom harm can be done without necessarily making a pregnant woman legally less than a full person.
When the fetus is a "person", is the argument for life. If we define loosing a choice means your less than a person, than that could be said for many things in our society.
But also legally speaking, fetuses can be reconigized as a person. If a mother is Murdered, the murderer can be charged with 2 counts. The law is not consistent.
What I'm getting at is that life and choice are 2 distinct arguments. Their often grouped. For you personally, when do you define life?
I think maybe you don't completely understand this issue, which is fine because it's so complex, but maybe what you don't realize is that the two arguments you are making aren't actually life v. choice. What you're actually confusing are philosophical personhood v. legal personhood. Philosophical personhood is very difficult. What does it mean to be conscious, to be alive, to be a human, to be a person in an abstract referent-based way? That's a question and it's a hard one. Legal personhood is what should inform our laws and it's divided into two categories: natural personhood (humans who are born), and juridical personhood (entities that are extended limited legal rights that are generally reserved solely for natural persons, eg. corporations and sometimes pre-born humans). I am fine with juridical personhood. It makes sense to sometimes extend rights generally reserved to natural persons to a person-at-law for the sake of serving some State interest. However, under the law, a natural person's legal rights should always trump a juridical person's legal rights. Always. We've seen the erosion of that hierarchy as it pertains to women ONLY. So only where the woman's personhood rights are at stake do we see juridical personhood overcome natural personhood. That is why the abortion debate is so problematic. Because in order to extent a "right to life" to a pre-born human, you have to accord it juridical personhood (which arguably, but not universally is fine) but then you have to elevate juridical personhood above natural personhood which is an inversion of the law and should not be permitted.
So, what I would say based on your comments above is that you are right that this debate is extraordinarily complex, but I would invite you to read more and listen to the challenges to your arguments because I'm not sure you're quite getting the terms of the debate or what is at stake.
Our last loss was due to Triploidy it's a genetic abnormality where the child receives a full extra set of chromosomes. After hearing her diagnosis I'm in a way grateful (yes that's extremely hard to say) that she passed soon instead of being born to the pain that Triploidy causes and is in all cases fatal either before or a few days after birth. If our daughter had made it to 20 weeks we would have had a decision on our hands. Something we both think about from time to time even now. Loosing her earlier we felt was best for her she didn't have to suffer like she would have if she was born and endured umpteen painful problems that ultimately would have taken her life. The choice is important no one knows what the future could bring or the reasons why someone needs to have the procedure (nor is it really anyone's business).
This women is so amazing to share her story. Thank you for sharing with us!
This is exactly my story. My second child - a very much wanted and loved child - had triploidy. He passed and I am grateful that I didn't have to make that heart-wrenching choice. But I am also grateful that it is a choice.
After going through that I am even more pro-choice and am glad that woman are brave enough to share their stories.
Tritto. My first loss, after years of infertility and then conception via IUI, was due to triploidy. Knowing that we got "lucky" in his heart stopping on its own vs facing both his suffering and our own makes me adamantly, vehemently pro choice.
Mine happened at 21 weeks too, and my would-be EDD is in 3 days. I hate that our stories have to be put out there so people don't think we're monsters and see the need for choice, but people suck. I didn't just wake up at 21 weeks and decide to get an abortion for shits and giggles. I'd much rather be preparing for a newborn right now.
Huge hugs to you. I found the anticipation of my EDD with V was worse than the day itself. I hope you have a peaceful day.
Post by WanderingWinoZ on Sept 22, 2015 17:15:14 GMT -5
Thank you so much everybody who shared your personal stories here - I think this discussion is so important. I'm so very sorry that so many here have faced heartbreak & anguish.
centralsquare that is an important distinction - now that I think of it, I use "loss" much more than miscarriage. Feels less like lying. I also have no question at all we made the right decision. And agree entirely with your comparison. Only probably half a dozen people in our lives know, and they've all been very supportive as well.
I am also sorry for your loss, and the others here. Life is so unfair.
I also use 'loss' or say my daughter was stillborn, since I did have to go through labour after the injection to stop her heart. I don't feel the need to explain our choice or care to hear anyone else's opinion on the matter. Our close family and friends know, and have been incredibly supportive, and that's enough.
I couldn't imagine being the woman who carries a baby to term because the government told me it was illegal to terminate. All those people who want to touch your belly, ask you about EDD, the gender of the child, is the name chosen yet? I couldn't last 1 day like that.
Termination at 24 weeks is a 2 step process. They stop the baby's heart, and then give you a pill to prepare your body for labour. They don't induce right away, you have to wait a couple of days, go about life knowing you are carrying a dead child. It's horrible.
I still have a very clear memory of running into an acquaintance right after we had the injection to stop V's heart. She said, "I hear you're pregnant! Congratulations! When are you due?" I just muttered "Not long now," and ran away.