I actually found an article referencing this park ranger and she mentions quite often the racism she faced and how she was very rare indeed and dealt with a ton of discrimination, both in her position and in the area in which she lived.
I also found at least two articles and two buzzfeed articles filled with picks of black women working in factories during the war, as nurses, etc. I don't think Rosie opened this door though. I think black women who were already working simply found more places to work.
For black women, the image of Rosie didn't inspire black women who had never considered working outside of the home to do so, it merely gave them just a wee bit more options.
As a side note, I was at the Mighty 8th Air Force Museum a few months ago and they have an entire section of it dedicated to black aviatrixes. To be honest, I nearly cried I was so overwhelmed by it. I felt pride for all they were able to accomplish. Many of them were the first to do various things in their aircraft. But I was saddened by the fact that at 34 this was the first I'd heard of any of them. I didn't realize what a great place in history these amazing black women held. And I was angry because when I got to the display detailing the programs the government and military instituted for women pilots, there wasn't a black face among them. The placard stated that black women were not permitted. So these fine ladies who were kicking ass and taking names at the forefront of a budding industry were pushed to the side because of the color of their skin.
And now I'm sitting here listening to other white women insist that they opened doors for these WOC who were already there and deny their part in these oppressions.
pinkdutchtulips please read this entire post and take special note of the bolded.
She's not saying that black women didn't work she's saying that Rosie opened doors to jobs that were not previously open to WOC. The proof is one black woman ranger.
To which I'm saying nope.
I actually found an article referencing this park ranger and she mentions quite often the racism she faced and how she was very rare indeed and dealt with a ton of discrimination, both in her position and in the area in which she lived.
I also found at least two articles and two buzzfeed articles filled with picks of black women working in factories during the war, as nurses, etc. I don't think Rosie opened this door though. I think black women who were already working simply found more places to work.
For black women, the image of Rosie didn't inspire black women who had never considered working outside of the home to do so, it merely gave them just a wee bit more options.
As a side note, I was at the Mighty 8th Air Force Museum a few months ago and they have an entire section of it dedicated to black aviatrixes. To be honest, I nearly cried I was so overwhelmed by it. I felt pride for all they were able to accomplish. Many of them were the first to do various things in their aircraft. But I was saddened by the fact that at 34 this was the first I'd heard of any of them. I didn't realize what a great place in history these amazing black women held. And I was angry because when I got to the display detailing the programs the government and military instituted for women pilots, there wasn't a black face among them. The placard stated that black women were not permitted. So these fine ladies who were kicking ass and taking names at the forefront of a budding industry were pushed to the side because of the color of their skin.
And now I'm sitting here listening to other white women insist that they opened doors for these WOC who were already there and deny their part in these oppressions.
THIS IS WHY WE HAVE TO HAVE A BLACK HISTORY MONTH!!!
Not directed at you, Habs. Just how sad is it that we ignore these parts of our history for 11 months of the year?
And how cool would an aviatrix movie be? I love period pieces costume porn movies and I love high speed exploding shit movies so how could this not be the funnest thing ever?
I'm on the app so I can't see who initially posted it but summer quoted someone who said, among other things, that you can be oppressed and still oppress others.
I think that's where white women lose the connection. "We" acknowledge slavery as an evil, and we know that we lacked full power in that era. So we sort of just excuse it in our minds by saying that we were oppressed too so what could we do?
But of course you can be oppressed and still oppress others. Of course you can lack power and control and still make it worse for others. And I think white women now forget that fact. We think that bc we lacked power we are not responsible for what happened over centuries. And you can obviously debate how much power we lacked, how much we had, where the line was, and so on.
It's the epitome of white privilege in many ways. It's ignoring our role in history. We were active participants to a very large extent.
I would imagine it makes some people even more likely to oppress than others. People like to have people they feel above or better than, it can be a powerful motivator.
I think it's also important to remember that even doing nothing is a way of contributing and continuing the oppression. How many white women stood (and continue to stand) by when woc are suffering? Dismissing something as "not our problem" doesn't always come from a place of conscious racism, but it certainly has deep roots in "othering" behaviors and ideas.
I would imagine it makes some people even more likely to oppress than others. People like to have people they feel above or better than, it can be a powerful motivator.
I think it's also important to remember that even doing nothing is a way of contributing and continuing the oppression. How many white women stood (and continue to stand) by when woc are suffering? Dismissing something as "not our problem" doesn't always come from a place of conscious racism, but it certainly has deep roots in "othering" behaviors and ideas.
Wearing my Feminist Killjoy tshirt today in honor of this thread.
I really like this comedian and how she explains intersectionality for dummies. It's way simplified, but unfortunately a lot of people need things simplified like this (I'm not saying anyone in this thread specifically... just people).
Wearing my Feminist Killjoy tshirt today in honor of this thread.
I really like this comedian and how she explains intersectionality for dummies. It's way simplified, but unfortunately a lot of people need things simplified like this (I'm not saying anyone in this thread specifically... just people).
I showed this to my husband because we were talking earlier about this thread. He said it was educational AND made him hungry.
Great clip, brookles. I do identify as a feminist and really appreciate all the time that went into this thread and conversation because I continue to learn a lot from the perspectives shared.
I can only imagine how infuriating it is for WOC to have white feminists try to claim you or make you feel like you "owe" the "movement" something.
I do identify as a feminist and say so loudly and proudly. I also know I'm imperfect and have, before I got better educated, been one of those young white feminists spending most of their energy on the small things that don't really impact anyone outside of that specific sphere. I'm grateful for the education I received in college where I started learning about the history of race and ethnicity in this country on a much deeper level than I ever had before. I'm also grateful to all the women of color here who share their stories so that women like me can learn. The fact that you have to do that bothers me, because it means your narratives are largely invisible. Your patience with us is admirable.
I'll read through the whole thread, but wanted to start by admitting where I am and how much I've learned and know I need to continue to learn. This board has helped me in trying to teach about a variety of social justice issues with the students I work with to make sure I'm checking my privilege going into those conversations and opening to other perspectives. I can't say thank you enough.
THIS IS WHY WE HAVE TO HAVE A BLACK HISTORY MONTH!!!
Not directed at you, Habs. Just how sad is it that we ignore these parts of our history for 11 months of the year?
And how cool would an aviatrix movie be? I love period pieces costume porn movies and I love high speed exploding shit movies so how could this not be the funnest thing ever?
It would be really cool, but George Lucas had to bootleg his movie about the Tuskeegee Airmen because Hollywood wouldn't support it because of the all-black cast (how the hell else would you make a movie about black airmen?!). So don't hold your breath waiting for a movie about black aviatrix.
Post by ChillyMcFreeze on Oct 19, 2015 8:38:30 GMT -5
Late but present! I took a bunch of women's studies classes in college, including Race and Gender in Media. That's when I first learned about intersectionality, and now I teach it as a unit in my own class. (I always start with an emphatic disclaimer that I will never be able to reliably tell the story of the black woman's experience.) I always emphasized sex as the first, big, defining descriptor, but it has become clear to me that race is what divides us first and foremost, so I'm altering my lesson this semester.
After hearing about #solidarityisforwhitewomen on this board, I mentioned it to our black student organization of campus. They were so on board, and it put into a concise phrase what they were already feeling. When we talk about promoting diversity on campus, they tell me they're tired of always having to be the ones promoting diversity. White students taking women's studies are so RAH RAH FEMINISM and ready to take on the fight. But Black women are already tired of fighting at 18.
Finally, to answer the question, I do consider myself a feminist. When I started reading this thread last week, I felt like those who didn't consider themselves feminists, even though they espouse big-picture feminist ideals, were hurting the movement. But I think I'm more conscientious now, and I really take to heart questioning to whom we want to be equal when we talk about equality, and what battle women are fighting first and foremost.
I'm back now having read the last 3 pages with enough time to give them consideration.
I absolutely struggle with how best to advocate for racial equality in my personal life because let's face it, I live in a pretty white area. I now wonder if the actual fact that I identify as a feminist, and fight for women's rights in my profession, comes across as off-putting to people who are focusing their fight on racism. It's certainly not my intent, but I've been wrong before.
Post by CallingAllAngels on Oct 19, 2015 11:13:49 GMT -5
I have been reading this thread and learning a lot from it. I realize now that, as a white person, I have always thought of slavery and Jim Crow as something that happened in the past. I have roots in the South, but I have never identified with the white plantation owner or his wife. I have never thought of them as my people. In my eyes, I'm just trying to do better than the generation before me and trying to raise my children to do better than me. The thought of someone associating me with the plantation owner's wife is shocking to me. I know this is naive and privileged, and not especially profound, but it's something that really resonated with me. I mean, people of color aren't able to separate themselves from their past, so why should I?
I'm back now having read the last 3 pages with enough time to give them consideration.
I absolutely struggle with how best to advocate for racial equality in my personal life because let's face it, I live in a pretty white area. I now wonder if the actual fact that I identify as a feminist, and fight for women's rights in my profession, comes across as off-putting to people who are focusing their fight on racism. It's certainly not my intent, but I've been wrong before.
Well, did you see the articles about feminists Erica Jong and Roxanne Gay at a forum in GA last month? That exchange was pretty clear that Erica Jong was behind the times for understanding intersectionality and that her most prominent work with "Arabs and other animals" as a title to a chapter might be outdated to feminism today. Roxanne Gay pretty much handed Jong her ass when she said (paraphrasing, not actual quote), "Well, WOC don't need to do the work to fix feminism now. We're all good."
I think there is a way to be conscious of your work's focus. Does it focus on second-string feminism or social justice feminism issues? I'd say if the focus is still on second-string feminism that it might be inadvertently hurting the intersectionality of feminism and people of color. If the issues are more social-justice based, you are likely to be more aware about the issues affecting WOC and others and as I said previously, we can all continue to relearn our historical context and realize how that helps move forward or hinder common issues.
I'm back now having read the last 3 pages with enough time to give them consideration.
I absolutely struggle with how best to advocate for racial equality in my personal life because let's face it, I live in a pretty white area. I now wonder if the actual fact that I identify as a feminist, and fight for women's rights in my profession, comes across as off-putting to people who are focusing their fight on racism. It's certainly not my intent, but I've been wrong before.
Well, did you see the articles about feminists Erica Jong and Roxanne Gay at a forum in GA last month? That exchange was pretty clear that Erica Jong was behind the times for understanding intersectionality and that her most prominent work with "Arabs and other animals" as a title to a chapter might be outdated to feminism today. Roxanne Gay pretty much handed Jong her ass when she said (paraphrasing, not actual quote), "Well, WOC don't need to do the work to fix feminism now. We're all good."
I think there is a way to be conscious of your work's focus. Does it focus on second-string feminism or social justice feminism issues? I'd say if the focus is still on second-string feminism that it might be inadvertently hurting the intersectionality of feminism and people of color. If the issues are more social-justice based, you are likely to be more aware about the issues affecting WOC and others and as I said previously, we can all continue to relearn our historical context and realize how that helps move forward or hinder common issues.
Saw this photo over the weekend in the freep for a Rosie the Riverter photo op. Guess what? They are all white. No surprise.
Uhm no. I see some ladies of color. Sister Juanetta second over from the right is definitely black and she looks like she holds down her pew at Beulah AME church too. But I've seen more color at the RNC so there's that.
Yes I identify as a feminist and if "I" was in charge of movements or activism after reading these posts I'd work hard to try to involve WOC in my movement. I think it's a damn shame that some WOC don't want to be involved. Their ideas and thoughts are enlightening, amazing and challenging. Women are missing out not having more of those perspectives in the mix.
Instead of leaving feminism because of the past, I guess I would wonder and ask, "How do we move forward to invite WOC in?" And that doesn't mean WOC answer that question. It's how does "Feminism" make itself more welcoming. It needs to fix the problems.
EDIT. I named people that I knew. I ammended to just be more global.
Part of it is the way many white feminists talk about it. "Oh it's a shame you don't want to be involved, if only you understood how we're trying to help."
It's trickle down feminism and we're not here for it. But even those of us who don't call ourselves feminists or aren't invested in the feminist movement are involved in furthering the cause of feminist. I think that's an important point to take note of. You don't have to call yourself a feminism to raise children to believe the genders are equal and behave accordingly. So perhaps the goal of white feminists shouldn't be to convince us to call ourselves feminists. Every effort to do so is only more paternalistic (ironically enough) than the last.
The goal should be to acknowledge the work that WOC of color have done and continue to do to further feminism regardless of what we call it.
Also, I meant to address this earlier but I disagree with those who say all of us are feminists whether we call ourselves such or not. For one, it's the height of assumption and paternalism to insist people are under a label they do not wish for themselves. It's insulting and dismissive of the experiences many of us have had. You're dismissing them as meaningless and deciding your worldview is the one we should ascribe to even if we don't feel that kinship. It would be like telling someone who is multiracial what race they are even if they feel closer to a different race or culture.
Secondly, I don't believe merely making choices makes one a feminist. How are you living your life? And I don't mean are you a SAHM or a working mother. I mean do you support policies that help equalize women? How are you raising your children? If you have sons and daughters, what messages do you convey to them regarding gender? If your boys mow the lawn and take out the trash while your daughters cook and clean, you may not be a feminist. If you encourage your sons to pursue whatever course they like but suggest your daughters become nurses, teachers, or other primarily female professions regardless of their interests, you likely aren't a feminist. If you assume your sons will go to the college but your daughters will get married and have babies, you aren't a feminist.
And even if you have children of just one gender, you still need to look at your expectations, how to raise those children to deal with the people around them. Do they know that women can be police officers, mechanics, and pilots? Do they know that men can be nurses, childcare providers, office managers, teachers? Are you teaching your sons to cook, to clean, to manage a household for themselves?
Sometimes I think the domestic front is where we need to make the most progress. We keep expecting the professional world to treat men and women equally but then once we step over the threshold of our own households, it's still the 50s.
How can we expect genders to view themselves equally when in the places that form them, the places where they spend the most time, relax, and are most open, we continue to support and cultivate distinct gender roles?
Feminism is more than believing the genders are equal. It's treating them equally both actively and passively.
I have been reading this thread and learning a lot from it. I realize now that, as a white person, I have always thought of slavery and Jim Crow as something that happened in the past. I have roots in the South, but I have never identified with the white plantation owner or his wife. I have never thought of them as my people. In my eyes, I'm just trying to do better than the generation before me and trying to raise my children to do better than me. The thought of someone associating me with the plantation owner's wife is shocking to me. I know this is naive and privileged, and not especially profound, but it's something that really resonated with me. I mean, people of color aren't able to separate themselves from their past, so why should I?
This is why we can't say "We got a black president!" Yay Color-Blind. We forget that the US spent a great deal of time reinforcing the status of blacks as second class citizens. When we won Brown vs. Board of Education and got the Civil Rights Act passed, it didn't end discrimination.
Discrimination simply morphed. It became block busting. It became redlining. It became white flight. It became throwing LaShaundra's resume into File 13. It became assuming that Trayvon was the person breaking into homes. I like this graph because it drives home the point that Jim Crow and Slavery were not that long ago:
People have fooled themselves into a false narrative and have the audacity to blink and stare and shout NO! YOU GOT IT ALL WRONG to the people who are saying - this still isn't right. You don't get to tell the oppressed that they aren't oppressed.