Post by underwaterrhymes on Feb 7, 2016 12:32:45 GMT -5
There is no room for racism here, I agree. And there should be zero tolerance for it.
But for me there is a difference between "mean girl" behavior and discussions in which we may disagree and people express their opinions in smart, but occasionally acerbic ways.
I have no interest in being a part of a board that is only unicorns and rainbows. I appreciate what many of the missing posters bring to the board, and although I largely understand their absences, I also feel the board is lacking without most of them.
There is no room for racism here, I agree. And there should be zero tolerance for it.
But for me there is a difference between "mean girl" behavior and discussions in which we may disagree and people express their opinions in smart, but occasionally acerbic ways.
I have no interest in being a part of a board that is only unicorns and rainbows. I appreciate what many of the missing posters bring to the board, and although I largely understand their absences, I also feel the board is lacking without most of them.
Yes. And I'm honestly sorry I posted this to begin with, because there are some people who are still insisting on conflating "mean girls" and racists, and I am pretty sure that fight has been fought and we are all clearly not going to agree and I for one am sick of it.* KOKO, herself, was hardly puppies and rainbows. And I liked her because of it.
I understand entirely if this isn't a good place for her. And I obviously missed the post in which she said she was taking off because of more generalized underlying racism and not primarily because of the penises. Regardless, if I had left, I would want people to miss me and would want to know people wanted me to come back. And I have enough respect for KOKO to be pretty damn certain she isn't going to miscontrue this as a royal command for her return.
*Not as sick of it as hearing certain ML'ers congratulate themselves for their new racial sensitivity about three months after last patting themselves on the back for the exact same realization (which apparently didn't stick long). This whole Reading Rainbow Racism goes into the same category for me as H congratulating himself for doing a load of laundry when there are still five loads upstairs. Grown ups don't get gold stars for doing their job.
I am bummed that she left but don't impute your feelings of squikiness to me. I can't speak to my role in implicit racism, but my conscious is pretty fucking clear on the causative events on this one. You won't find any posts from me defending Boobie, nor do I feel an outsized need to self-flagellate over penises I didn't send (or to join the collective board self-congratulations over our Second Great Awakening).
If KOKO doesn't want to be here, that's her decision to make, and I certainly am not suggesting she owes me or anyone else anything, but the bottom line is neither of us knows why she left, and I do want her to know her absence if noted and she is missed. That's all.
Well, I think that was the main point here. Implicit racism (and general mean girl behavior) exists because people aren't actively speaking against every time it happens. It's not enough that any of us chose not to participate in it. We didn't stand up against it every time. So, in that regard, unless you can say that you spoke up every single time anything like that went down and called out the people involved and demanded it stop, you are as guilty as the rest of us. I'm just a long time lurker that didn't visit the board very often, but I can see this clearly now.
I believe part part of why this board is/will be different going forward is because either these call outs will happen or people will just leave. It's already started.
Let's be clear about something- what happened to Kirkette was not implicit racism nor was it mean girl behavior. That was pretty explicit and obvious, and as soon as I saw it happening I stood behind her. As should happen in any case of overt and obvious racism.
As for calling out EVERY act of implicit racism- how exactly do you think that is going to work? From my perspective, the idea that I, a white woman, ought to be wading into conversations without context and calling people whose background I don't know out for implicit racism sounds pretty untenable. I don't have context for implicit racism- I don't think I've ever had it directed at me. So my only analog is sexism, and I know for a fact that I would not want a man jumping into a conversation I was having with my girlfriends to tell me I was being sexist. In that regard, when dealing with more subtle forms of racism, I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting people for calling it out while recognizing I myself do not have the context to identify - let alone call people out- for each and every act of it.
Finally, I absolutely do not agree that, because I am unable to identify every act of implied racism, or would feel uncomfortable calling someone out for it without knowing the background of the person posting or the context for the post, that I am somehow as responsible as the woman who sent dicks to someone's job, or even as responsible as the people who were ridiculing and questioning Kirkette's background. That's just stupid.
There is no room for racism here, I agree. And there should be zero tolerance for it.
But for me there is a difference between "mean girl" behavior and discussions in which we may disagree and people express their opinions in smart, but occasionally acerbic ways.
I have no interest in being a part of a board that is only unicorns and rainbows. I appreciate what many of the missing posters bring to the board, and although I largely understand their absences, I also feel the board is lacking without most of them.
Well, I think that was the main point here. Implicit racism (and general mean girl behavior) exists because people aren't actively speaking against every time it happens. It's not enough that any of us chose not to participate in it. We didn't stand up against it every time. So, in that regard, unless you can say that you spoke up every single time anything like that went down and called out the people involved and demanded it stop, you are as guilty as the rest of us. I'm just a long time lurker that didn't visit the board very often, but I can see this clearly now.
I believe part part of why this board is/will be different going forward is because either these call outs will happen or people will just leave. It's already started.
Let's be clear about something- what happened to Kirkette was not implicit racism nor was it mean girl behavior. That was pretty explicit and obvious, and as soon as I saw it happening I stood behind her. As should happen in any case of overt and obvious racism.
As for calling out EVERY act of implicit racism- how exactly do you think that is going to work? From my perspective, the idea that I, a white woman, ought to be wading into conversations without context and calling people whose background I don't know out for implicit racism sounds pretty untenable. I don't have context for implicit racism- I don't think I've ever had it directed at me. So my only analog is sexism, and I know for a fact that I would not want a man jumping into a conversation I was having with my girlfriends to tell me I was being sexist. In that regard, when dealing with more subtle forms of racism, I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting people for calling it out while recognizing I myself do not have the context to identify - let alone call people out- for each and every act of it.
Finally, I absolutely do not agree that, because I am unable to identify every act of implied racism, or would feel uncomfortable calling someone out for it without knowing the background of the person posting or the context for the post, that I am somehow as responsible as the woman who sent dicks to someone's job, or even as responsible as the people who were ridiculing and questioning Kirkette's background. That's just stupid.
Why is this still a question? Yes, call out racism when you see it. It's like the Supreme Court and porn. You may not be able to exactly define it but you know it when you see it. Work from there and you'll be in good shape. I know, who the fuck am I? Someone who lurks and would love to see the script change from the "regulars."
Let's be clear about something- what happened to Kirkette was not implicit racism nor was it mean girl behavior. That was pretty explicit and obvious, and as soon as I saw it happening I stood behind her. As should happen in any case of overt and obvious racism.
As for calling out EVERY act of implicit racism- how exactly do you think that is going to work? From my perspective, the idea that I, a white woman, ought to be wading into conversations without context and calling people whose background I don't know out for implicit racism sounds pretty untenable. I don't have context for implicit racism- I don't think I've ever had it directed at me. So my only analog is sexism, and I know for a fact that I would not want a man jumping into a conversation I was having with my girlfriends to tell me I was being sexist. In that regard, when dealing with more subtle forms of racism, I don't think there is anything wrong with supporting people for calling it out while recognizing I myself do not have the context to identify - let alone call people out- for each and every act of it.
Finally, I absolutely do not agree that, because I am unable to identify every act of implied racism, or would feel uncomfortable calling someone out for it without knowing the background of the person posting or the context for the post, that I am somehow as responsible as the woman who sent dicks to someone's job, or even as responsible as the people who were ridiculing and questioning Kirkette's background. That's just stupid.
Why is this still a question? Yes, call out racism when you see it. It's like the Supreme Court and porn. You may not be able to exactly define it but you know it when you see it. Work from there and you'll be in good shape. I know, who the fuck am I? Someone who lurks and would love to see the script change from the "regulars."
No, actually, I don't know implicit racism when I see it. Overt racism is easy. But covert racism is hard, particularly because it is often shaped by the motivation of the speaker and because reasonable minds can disagree.
Just in the context of this post, there are dozens of situations that could reflect covert racism. Is the idea that WOC need white people to speak up for them implicitly racist? Is someone saying they can speak for a WOC an expression of implicit racism? Is me thinking a WOC would care if I miss her implicitly racist? Is assuming that, if a WOC left last week, it was because of this fiasco, a racial stereotype? Is turning this post into a continuation of the prior debate racist because it deprives Nugget of an individual identity?
What if I had told Sonrisa I thought it was condescending of her to purport to speak on behalf of Nugget, and that her assumption that Nugget left because of the racial atmosphere reflected implicit racism? After all, no one is purporting to speak on behalf of Toledo, nor is anyone assuming she left because of discomfort with the racial atmosphere. But if I had called Sonrisa out for that, I would have been a jackass, because Sonrisa was actually speaking based on something Nugget herself wrote- I just lacked the context to know that until she told me. And even if she hadn't been speaking based on something Nugget wrote, maybe I was actually the one being implicitly racist for not recognizing the obvious effect this atmosphere must have had on her.
So no, it is not like porn. Overt acts are always more clear and obvious than covert motivations. And honestly, I am more than a little uncomfortable both with the idea of ML volunteering itself as arbiter of covert racism and with the expectation (expressed in other posts, not this one) that the WOC who still remain should volunteer to either identify it or educate the rest of us.
I am not saying people shouldn't speak up if they see something that genuinely strikes them as reflecting racist assumptions. Or that we shouldn't work harder and be more alert to these issues. OF COURSE we should all be trying to work harder at this. But the accusation made in this post - that someone who does not call out every comment that may reflect covert racism is as culpable as the person who literally committed a hate crime, or the people who accused a WOC for lying about her background because the way she referred to it wasn't WASPy enough- is nuts.
Why is this still a question? Yes, call out racism when you see it. It's like the Supreme Court and porn. You may not be able to exactly define it but you know it when you see it. Work from there and you'll be in good shape. I know, who the fuck am I? Someone who lurks and would love to see the script change from the "regulars."
No, actually, I don't know implicit racism when I see it. Overt racism is easy. But covert racism is hard, particularly because it is often shaped by the motivation of the speaker and because reasonable minds can disagree.
Just in the context of this post, there are dozens of situations that could reflect covert racism. Is the idea that WOC need white people to speak up for them implicitly racist? Is someone saying they can speak for a WOC an expression of implicit racism? Is me thinking a WOC would care if I miss her implicitly racist? Is assuming that, if a WOC left last week, it was because of this fiasco, a racial stereotype? Is turning this post into a continuation of the prior debate racist because it deprives Nugget of an individual identity?
What if I had told Sonrisa I thought it was condescending of her to purport to speak on behalf of Nugget, and that her assumption that Nugget left because of the racial atmosphere reflected implicit racism? After all, no one is purporting to speak on behalf of Toledo, nor is anyone assuming she left because of discomfort with the racial atmosphere. But if I had called Sonrisa out for that, I would have been a jackass, because Sonrisa was actually speaking based on something Nugget herself wrote- I just lacked the context to know that until she told me. And even if she hadn't been speaking based on something Nugget wrote, maybe I was actually the one being implicitly racist for not recognizing the obvious effect this atmosphere must have had on her.
So no, it is not like porn. Overt acts are always more clear and obvious than covert motivations. And honestly, I am more than a little uncomfortable both with the idea of ML volunteering itself as arbiter of covert racism and with the expectation (expressed in other posts, not this one) that the WOC who still remain should volunteer to either identify it or educate the rest of us.
I am not saying people shouldn't speak up if they see something that genuinely strikes them as reflecting racist assumptions. Or that we shouldn't work harder and be more alert to these issues. OF COURSE we should all be trying to work harder at this. But the accusation made in this post - that someone who does not call out every comment that may reflect covert racism is as culpable as the person who literally committed a hate crime, or the people who accused a WOC for lying about her background because the way she referred to it wasn't WASPy enough- is nuts.
You are doing it again. By going on and on and on and on and on, you are basically beating down dialogue.
Question? Do you even want to be educated about implicit racism? Because if you did, you wouldn't be posting this obtuse and real defensive stuff in a post that was meant to come off as concerned. You asked a question, you got an answer/answers you didn't like and now you are pissed? Why?
Again, who the fuck am I? I don't matter and my thoughts are just that of a lurker.
Why is this still a question? Yes, call out racism when you see it. Â It's like the Supreme Court and porn. You may not be able to exactly define it but you know it when you see it. Â Work from there and you'll be in good shape. Â I know, who the fuck am I? Someone who lurks and would love to see the script change from the "regulars."
If you dislike the people who regularly post here why keep reading/coming back?
This is the perfect post. You are trying to make ME feel bad for telling Elle she is contributing to a problem. Nope. This is what happens on different issues. You don't like what I'm saying so instead of reflecting you say, "if you don't like it, leave." On this type of serious stuff, I'm saying what I think.
This is the perfect post. You are trying to make ME feel bad for telling Elle she is contributing to a problem. Nope. This is what happens on different issues. You don't like what I'm saying so instead of reflecting you say, "if you don't like it, leave." On this type of serious stuff, I'm saying what I think.
I'm trying to make you feel bad? Nope. As you've said no one here knows you. I don't care enough to try to make you feel bad. And elle doesn't need me to defend or speak for her. She does that far better than I could attempt. I'm not saying the board doesn't have its issues. I'm saying that if you don't post here, don't know anyone here, and don't like what's being said, maybe it's not a good place for you to be. What's the point?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Let's not make this about you. And don't try to legislate where I'm going to read the Internet.
Its pretty generic with no identifying info. Unless she's really Carrie Bradshaw.
It's still an email address. I've already signed her up for Humorless Trolls Quarterly.
Again, it's the same shit from you guys. Feel free to give me a hard time instead of examining a real problem with someone actually saying it's not her problem to deal with. Instead you are going to come at me, it's cool.
It's still an email address. I've already signed her up for Humorless Trolls Quarterly.
Again, it's the same shit from you guys. Feel free to give me a hard time instead of examining a real problem with someone actually saying it's not her problem to deal with. Instead you are going to come at me, it's cool.
No one is disputing that there is a problem, though. We are all in agreement.
You're shaming people in a thread where shaming doesn't need to happen.
Again, it's the same shit from you guys. Feel free to give me a hard time instead of examining a real problem with someone actually saying it's not her problem to deal with. Instead you are going to come at me, it's cool.
No one is disputing that there is a problem, though. We are all in agreement.
You're shaming people in a thread where shaming doesn't need to happen.
I don't agree but that's ok. I'm not shaming anyone. I'm just pointing out that amid a wall of text from Elle nothing has changed when challenged In my opinion. That's all. The people who are now showing their ass because I said something are trying to shame me. It's fine. I mean, fucking Dick Move even came out. That's kind of special. I have to go journal.
It's still an email address. I've already signed her up for Humorless Trolls Quarterly.
Again, it's the same shit from you guys. Feel free to give me a hard time instead of examining a real problem with someone actually saying it's not her problem to deal with. Instead you are going to come at me, it's cool.
It's times like this that I wish "who are you" hadn't become a banned phrase. *-)
Post by marlenabell on Feb 7, 2016 20:28:42 GMT -5
Elle coming in here all doe eyed and asking "where did she goooo and whyyy?" just seems so disingenuous. I mean come on, it's really hard to believe she has been living under a rock.
Perhaps she should just stick to the brag posts as those are more in her wheelhouse. It's been a while since we got one of those disguised as a problem the board can "help" her to solve. lol.
And before anyone tries to legislate my internet usage. No, I am not a troll and yes I've even met a GCBNer!
No one is disputing that there is a problem, though. We are all in agreement.
You're shaming people in a thread where shaming doesn't need to happen.
I don't agree but that's ok. I'm not shaming anyone. I'm just pointing out that amid a wall of text from Elle nothing has changed when challenged In my opinion. That's all. The people who are now showing their ass because I said something are trying to shame me. It's fine. I mean, fucking Dick Move even came out. That's kind of special. I have to go journal.
Is the problem that you don't know the difference between covert and overt? I understand my response might have been hard to understand without that context.
From Webster's:
Covert: made, shown, or done in a way that is not easily seen or noticed : secret or hidden
Overt: easily seen : not secret or hidden
Does that help? Or do you need a further explanation of how something that is "not easily seen or noticed" might, you know, be hard to see or notice?
I don't agree but that's ok. I'm not shaming anyone. I'm just pointing out that amid a wall of text from Elle nothing has changed when challenged In my opinion. That's all. The people who are now showing their ass because I said something are trying to shame me. It's fine. I mean, fucking Dick Move even came out. That's kind of special. I have to go journal.
Is the problem that you don't know the difference between covert and overt? I understand my response might have been hard to understand without that context.
From Webster's:
Covert: made, shown, or done in a way that is not easily seen or noticed : secret or hidden
Overt: easily seen : not secret or hidden
Does that help? Or do you need a further explanation of how something that is "not easily seen or noticed" might, you know, be hard to see or notice?
[
omg the dictionary. You are too much. The poster above me captured you perfectly. But thank you for continuing to live up to expectations.
Is the problem that you don't know the difference between covert and overt? I understand my response might have been hard to understand without that context.
From Webster's:
Covert: made, shown, or done in a way that is not easily seen or noticed : secret or hidden
Overt: easily seen : not secret or hidden
Does that help? Or do you need a further explanation of how something that is "not easily seen or noticed" might, you know, be hard to see or notice?
[
omg the dictionary. You are too much. The poster above me captured you perfectly. But thank you for continuing to live up to expectations.
I'm done here. There's no point in arguing with someone who thinks using the dictionary definition of a word is "too much."
omg the dictionary. You are too much. The poster above me captured you perfectly. But thank you for continuing to live up to expectations.
I'm done here. There's no point in arguing with someone who thinks using the dictionary definition of a word is "too much."
Treating me like I'm stupid when other people felt the exact same way and quoting the dictionary to me to drive the point home is what's too much. Be done on this subject. My thoughts didn't come out of no where. I'm smart enough to "read the room." Now the game is back on and I need to yell at my tv.
I'm done here. There's no point in arguing with someone who thinks using the dictionary definition of a word is "too much."
Treating me like I'm stupid when other people felt the exact same way and quoting the dictionary to me to drive the point home is what's too much. Be done on this subject. My thoughts didn't come out of no where. I'm smart enough to "read the room." Now the game is back on and I need to yell at my tv.
Well, see, there's your problem. I think you'd be in a better mood if you were watching the commercials.
Again, it's the same shit from you guys. Feel free to give me a hard time instead of examining a real problem with someone actually saying it's not her problem to deal with. Instead you are going to come at me, it's cool.
Could you maybe point me to your call outs so I can just see how I should have been doing it? I'm just interested in what kind of input you've had in changing the narrative of the regulars.
oh no that's a good one too. I wouldn't dare call anyone out because look what's happening. There's a social hierarchy that I have respect for. And look what's happening. The classic pile on is happening to me instead of Elle reflecting on her words of "I'm not in charge of calling out "covert" racism." I'm not thrilled to be involved right now but I read both of those threads and they were difficult. Added to experiences in my own life that aren't appropriate to share now, this post rubbed me the wrong way so I waited to see if I was reading it wrong. We all make mistakes but there are others who seem to be reading it the same way. So there you go.
Well but. You can't criticize everyone else for not speaking up if you've been lurking and quiet. If you didn't have ties to people on the board it should be easier to speak up, no?