Trying to collect my thoughts here. It's interesting that WRT an article that talks about students actively being discriminated against because of their identity, and about how that group is a highly disproportionate target of hate crimes, many of the initial responses here weren't about showing empathy or allyship but rather focusing on "But Israel." .
I don't see where anyone said anything to that effect.
Trying to collect my thoughts here. It's interesting that WRT an article that talks about students actively being discriminated against because of their identity, and about how that group is a highly disproportionate target of hate crimes, many of the initial responses here weren't about showing empathy or allyship but rather focusing on "But Israel." .
I don't see where anyone said anything to that effect.
That's how I read a few of the responses as well. There was definitely a tone of 'but Isreal' in a few early posts. ETA: That it appears have now been deleted or edited out.
I don't see where anyone said anything to that effect.
That's how I read a few of the responses as well. There was definitely a tone of 'but Isreal' in a few early posts.
I think we can all agree that tone is a bit difficult to discern on the Internet. The author mentioned how "But on the first day there, she was horrified when the discussion became an attack on Israel — and soon devolved into attacks on the Jews."
My concern was that Israel was not a safe space subject. And I disagreed with the authors assertion that sending Americans to Israel is the answer.
I don't see where anyone said anything to that effect.
That's how I read a few of the responses as well. There was definitely a tone of 'but Isreal' in a few early posts. ETA: That it appears have now been deleted or edited out.
Do you remember what it said? I read it last night and can't recall.
That's how I read a few of the responses as well. There was definitely a tone of 'but Isreal' in a few early posts. ETA: That it appears have now been deleted or edited out.
Do you remember what it said? I read it last night and can't recall.
Post by barcelonagirl on Sept 17, 2016 19:02:28 GMT -5
I'm not Jewish so maybe I am missing anti-semetismdar but this quote
"It should be troubling to everyone that an SJP member at Temple University physically assaulted a pro-Israel Jewish student two years ago, calling him a “Zionist baby killer.”"
This seems to me to be more pro-Palestine vs. Pro-Israel and not anti-semetic.
I don't condone the violence I just want to know what I'm missing???
I'm not Jewish so maybe I am missing anti-semetismdar but this quote
"It should be troubling to everyone that an SJP member at Temple University physically assaulted a pro-Israel Jewish student two years ago, calling him a “Zionist baby killer.”"
This seems to me to be more pro-Palestine vs. Pro-Israel and not anti-semetic.
I don't condone the violence I just want to know what I'm missing???
Being anti-zionist is at the heart of anti-semitism throughout history dating back to Hertzel, the father of modern zionism. Turn of the century Jew hating had nothing to do with Palestine or Israel, it was mostly all rooted in a anti-zionist sentiment.
Zionism isn't really about Israel in a modern sense. Zionism is an ideal, a dream which permiated throughout European Jewry amongst deep seeded Jew hatred.
Hope it's ok if I jump in. I'm a very dirty lurker.
I'm not Jewish so maybe I am missing anti-semetismdar but this quote
"It should be troubling to everyone that an SJP member at Temple University physically assaulted a pro-Israel Jewish student two years ago, calling him a “Zionist baby killer.”"
This seems to me to be more pro-Palestine vs. Pro-Israel and not anti-semetic.
I don't condone the violence I just want to know what I'm missing???
Also the phrase baby killer has a very anti-Semitic history. Whole sale attacks on Jewish communities leading to murders, rapes, physical attacks were started over claims that Jews killed Christian children
I'm not Jewish so maybe I am missing anti-semetismdar but this quote
"It should be troubling to everyone that an SJP member at Temple University physically assaulted a pro-Israel Jewish student two years ago, calling him a “Zionist baby killer.”"
This seems to me to be more pro-Palestine vs. Pro-Israel and not anti-semetic.
I don't condone the violence I just want to know what I'm missing???
Also the phrase baby killer has a very anti-Semitic history. Whole sale attacks on Jewish communities leading to murders, rapes, physical attacks were started over claims that Jews killed Christian children
I didn't know about the baby killing connection. That's quite deplorable.
Also the phrase baby killer has a very anti-Semitic history. Whole sale attacks on Jewish communities leading to murders, rapes, physical attacks were started over claims that Jews killed Christian children
I didn't know about the baby killing connection. That's quite deplorable.
It isn't something most non-Jewish Americans would know unless exposed to it. We learned about it in my History of the Holocaust class as part of the background.
Post by imimahoney on Sept 17, 2016 19:24:09 GMT -5
If one if knowledgeable about the history of anti-semitism it's incredibly easy to pick out the all of the "bad phrases".
I think it's actually pretty easy to miss if you don't know the history, that's why anti-semitism is on the rise again (although it never really went away).
People think it's just anti-Israel, when in reality it's pure Jew hatred language cleaned up to seem progressive.
I'm not Jewish so maybe I am missing anti-semetismdar but this quote
"It should be troubling to everyone that an SJP member at Temple University physically assaulted a pro-Israel Jewish student two years ago, calling him a “Zionist baby killer.”"
This seems to me to be more pro-Palestine vs. Pro-Israel and not anti-semetic.
I don't condone the violence I just want to know what I'm missing???
See also Christ killer. Jews have long been accused of killing various innocents as sacrifices to our "bloodthirsty" g-d.
I'm not Jewish so maybe I am missing anti-semetismdar but this quote
"It should be troubling to everyone that an SJP member at Temple University physically assaulted a pro-Israel Jewish student two years ago, calling him a “Zionist baby killer.”"
This seems to me to be more pro-Palestine vs. Pro-Israel and not anti-semetic.
I don't condone the violence I just want to know what I'm missing???
Being anti-zionist is at the heart of anti-semitism throughout history dating back to Hertzel, the father of modern zionism.
As a borderline atheist current agnostic I disagree.
Post by hopecounts on Sept 17, 2016 19:29:59 GMT -5
It is very difficult to separate Anti-Zionism from Anti-Semitism. The reasons for desiring their own country are so inherently tied up in Anti-Semitism that separating the two is not easy. It is hard to separate Zionism from the pogroms, passion plays, segregation into their own quarters, expulsions, etc that led to it.
Being anti-zionist is at the heart of anti-semitism throughout history dating back to Hertzel, the father of modern zionism.
As a borderline atheist current agnostic I disagree.
As the 1800's, early 1900s progressed people began to associate anti-Jewish sentiment with anti-Zionist sentiment. Basically they became one and the same. While Hertzel wasn't a well known figure in many parts of the world, he was known for trying to give the Jewish people a homeland and became a face to hate and associate with the "Jewish problem".
Post by pixy0stix on Sept 17, 2016 19:31:01 GMT -5
Anti-semitism goes back for thousands of years. It's one of the most complex issues to understand. If we want to talk about micro-aggressions, all we need to do is look at anti-semitism for examples of just how micro those aggressions have become.
It is very difficult to separate Anti-Zionism from Anti-Semitism. The reasons for desiring their own country are so inherently tied up in Anti-Semitism that separating the two is not easy. It is hard to separate Zionism from the pogroms, passion plays, segregation into their own quarters, expulsions, etc that led to it.
Right. At its core, Zionism for Jews is about having a safe space, a literal safe space in the context of geopolitics, after hundreds of years of oppression and violence and murder. If you are anti-Zionist, not in the sense of criticizing Israeli policies or the problems surrounding the founding of the modern state, but in the sense of opposing the very notion that Jews deserve a safe place in the world that is theirs, it's very hard to convincingly separate that from anti-Semitism.
It is very difficult to separate Anti-Zionism from Anti-Semitism. The reasons for desiring their own country are so inherently tied up in Anti-Semitism that separating the two is not easy. It is hard to separate Zionism from the pogroms, passion plays, segregation into their own quarters, expulsions, etc that led to it.
Right. At its core, Zionism for Jews is about having a safe space, a literal safe space in the context of geopolitics, after hundreds of years of oppression and violence and murder. If you are anti-Zionist, not in the sense of criticizing Israeli policies or the problems surrounding the founding of the modern state, but in the sense of opposing the very notion that Jews deserve a safe place in the world that is theirs, it's very hard to convincingly separate that from anti-Semitism.
Yes and the voyage of the St. Louis is a key example of why this matters.
Post by imimahoney on Sept 17, 2016 19:47:36 GMT -5
I can say as an American Jew it can very hard to be anti-Israel, especially if you feel attacked or hated because of your faith. At times, Israel can seem as the only place to be Jewish and feel accepted.
I am from NYC, grew up among Jews, went to camp and still felt anti-semitism almost daily.
On my first trip to Israel we flew in on a Friday afternoon and the announcement said simply "good shabbos everyone!". I can not tell you how it felt in simple words. It felt as though I was finally at home and safe.
Recognizing the crimes of Israel is so hard because of that but progressive Jewish communities are working very hard to speak against Israel's atrocities.
When we tell you that Anti-zionism = anti-Semitism, why are our experiences discounted?
I don't believe anti-zionism = anti-semetism, especially considering there are anti-Zionist Jewish organizations.
It is a very very fine line and very very few who are anti-Zionist are not anti-Semitic. During the Holocaust 1 country made a large effort to support and save the Jewish population, one (Denmark) While there were mild efforts in other countries most were small and limited. Read up on the round up of the Jews in France by the French police, the voyage of the St. Louis where a ship full of Jews could not find a single country to take them in and ended up in Camps and half died, Dreyfuss and how he was assumed to be the spy because he was Jewish and couldn't be a loyal Frenchman because of that and so on. There is a very long history of Jews being made unwelcome and endangered by their lack of a home state.
It's kind of like Alllivesmatter on the surface fine but due to context not so much.
I think that condemning Jewish people as a whole for the crimes of the Israeli government is ridiculous. We can speak out against the atrocities and still support the Jewish people having a homeland. We can support Palestinians and still recognize that the Jews deserve and need a place to call home after all that they have survived throughout history. It's really not that difficult, but people certainly act like it is.
I hate that any of the women on this board feel marginalized and dismissed because of this thread. I do not understand what it is like to be you, and I will not pretend to know what it feels like to long for a homeland where I can feel safe. I already have that. I have always had that. Every human being deserves that.