Conversely, i get told I "look Jewish" often. It's because of my schnauz, I can only assume.
I got that a lot growing up too, nose not withstanding.
I also had a lot of jewish friends' parents say they thought I was jewish. (it was a compliment, I think. I never thought it was derogatory in any way coming from them.) my BF's mom told me she'd give me an "in" with their temple if I married a jewish guy, lol.
I think this is one of those things I was COMPLETELY insulated from until much later in life. I never heard anything negative about jewish people growing up. my town had a good percentage of jewish people. hell, half my block was jewish (the other half being Italian).
Thank you rvan0905 and @kirkette for coming to my defense.
@littlemoxie , my comment about not knowing the Arab perspective was regarding a Biblical context for the modern day Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I don't think the religious explanation for why we have this current conflict is appropriate. I said as much in my response to andwhat. If you had read more closely, I also said:
"The Biblical explanation wouldn't necessarily be the Arab perspective because Arab people are any number of religions: Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Druze, B'aha'i, and so on."
My point, which was either unclear to you or you happened to gloss over because of your bias, was that a religious explanation (because that's what andwhat and I were discussing) for the Arab POV on the conflict involves many religions. Perhaps Christian and Jewish and B'aha'i Arabs would have a different religious perspective on the conflict than Muslim or Druze or other religious Arabs.
So to get to my point, I was telling andwhat that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not a religious one. It is a geopolitical one. Therefore the information she is seeking to help better understand the history of the conflict needs to come from historical sources and not Biblical sources.
It's clear to see you made a mistake in your comprehension of what I wrote because of YOUR admitted bias towards the Palestinian POV of the modern conflict.
So are you saying that it is not true (or most likely not true) that black people were saying that Jewish landlords were charging them more or that store owners were charging them higher prices? Like I said this is not something I am very familiar with. I looked it up and .2% of my county identifies as religiously Jewish (and that is rounding up). I would assume that the culturally Jewish population is not much higher, but I may be mistaken since I have only gone to Christian schools. Either way I don't like the idea of disregarding what people are saying as "racist trope" because it does not align with the common belief. I still want to do more research and I will.
There is also part of that same wiki page that discusses the racism that went from Jewish towards black people. So it is not like black people were just saying negative stuff about Jewish people and it was all because they were racist or bought into racist beliefs.
If you want to believe that Jewish people and black people are at odds and will always be at odds, no one can stop you. I'm sure there are racist Jews, and I know there are black people who are anti-semitic. (Louis Farrakhan and his admiration for Hilter comes immediately to mind.)
All I can tell you is that we are taught in synagogue to fight racism and bigotry in all its forms. Jewish social organizations for children teach tolerance and acceptance of all people. In my childhood Sunday School class, Black leaders, Asian leaders, Arab leaders, Latino leaders, and white leaders who preached justice and tolerance were explained to us as people to look up to. We learned about their struggles and their successes, and were taught to emulate those who fought against oppression.
There is an element of selfishness to those teachings, in that they were supposed to inspire us to stand up for our own people. But at the end of the day, the overall message of Tikkun Olam (aka Healing the World) is present in all versions of Judaism. Not every Jew practices it, but as a group we are not responsible for the actions of the few.SaveSaveSaveSave
Where are you getting that from what I am asking? I must say though that when I don't know about a subject and everyone says that it is complicated and nuanced, I do want to hear/read what the other side of the argument is. Is that wrong? I mean other people have mentioned in this very thread that depending on where you lived the relationship between black and Jewish people could have been a strained one.
And I never said that you weren't black enough for your knowledge or opinion, imobviouslystaying. Way to jump to an absurd conclusion. I just have a problem thinking that everyone who thought that the relationship between black and Jewish people wasn't harmonious was/is anti-Semetic. Maybe I am wrong. But that is why I want to look into it further.
Many hear are acting like it is not ok to ask questions about the ins and outs of this conflict.
But I must say, while I am not discounting AJL 's knowledge because she didn't know the Palestinian view of this conflict, that I agree with @littlemoxie there. I was surprised that people saying that they would like a compromise to this situation don't even know what the position of the other side is. How can you reach a compromise if you don't even know?
Edited to fix a tag and to say I haven't finished reading the whole thread only to what I responded to here.
I was telling you that the Biblical perspective of the conflict is moot. I was telling you that I didn't know the Arab point of view within the Biblical perspective because that was the context in which you and I were discussing. I was making a statement that the link you gathered your information from was an unsound source.
andwhat, you and @littlemoxie are playing "gotcha!" and it's not cool.
AJL I will say that I interpreted your response the same way @littlemoxie did. I was not discounting your opinion on knowledge on the subject, but I did not take it as you were just referring to the religious aspect. I let it go because I didn't want to argue about it, but it did make me go hmm. But now that I see your response to littlemoxie I see that you were only referring to the religious question I asked and that makes sense.
Also I thought this thread was about antisemitism and the Jewish experience, NOT the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I'm going to start a new thread about that specifically and we can all have it out there.
I was telling you that the Biblical perspective of the conflict is moot. I was telling you that I didn't know the Arab point of view within the Biblical perspective because that was the context in which you and I were discussing. I was making a statement that the link you gathered your information from was an unsound source.
andwhat , you and @littlemoxie are playing "gotcha!" and it's not cool.
I'm not playing gotcha. I think we were responding at the same time. I am not trying to agrue. I am just trying to find out much more information on the entire subject.
1. I thought perhaps this was a blind spot and you didn't realize how an offhand comment like that in the midst of a response somewhat undermines the response itself. (Of course, it's possible you do realize it and don't care, which is totally your prerogative).
2. In case there were others out there like me who generally assumed you to be unbiased, but glossed over that - I thought it needed to be highlighted.
I do not mean to derail a thread filled with such good information and experiences - I did not want you to think I'd ignored you. I phrased the comment poorly, and I apologize. Further, I will refrain from any similar comments in the future.
Bitch, please. Did you just check someone for tone in a thread that is talking about personal experiences and knowledge?
Also I thought this thread was about antisemitism and the Jewish experience, NOT the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I'm going to start a new thread about that specifically and we can all have it out there.
It is, the only people that keep dragging it back seem to have issues with talking about the Jewish experience.
Listen, I said this in the WOC intersectional feminist thread - y'all that aren't sharing your personal experiences, but are questioning what is being said ABOUT PERSONAL EXPERIENCES need to shut up. Fucking "your experience has blind spots!" bullshit.
If you want to believe that Jewish people and black people are at odds and will always be at odds, no one can stop you. I'm sure there are racist Jews, and I know there are black people who are anti-semitic. (Louis Farrakhan and his admiration for Hilter comes immediately to mind.)
All I can tell you is that we are taught in synagogue to fight racism and bigotry in all its forms. Jewish social organizations for children teach tolerance and acceptance of all people. In my childhood Sunday School class, Black leaders, Asian leaders, Arab leaders, Latino leaders, and white leaders who preached justice and tolerance were explained to us as people to look up to. We learned about their struggles and their successes, and were taught to emulate those who fought against oppression.
There is an element of selfishness to those teachings, in that they were supposed to inspire us to stand up for our own people. But at the end of the day, the overall message of Tikkun Olam (aka Healing the World) is present in all versions of Judaism. Not every Jew practices it, but as a group we are not responsible for the actions of the few.SaveSaveSaveSave
Where are you getting that from what I am asking? I must say though that when I don't know about a subject and everyone says that it is complicated and nuanced, I do want to hear/read what the other side of the argument is. Is that wrong? I mean other people have mentioned in this very thread that depending on where you lived the relationship between black and Jewish people could have been a strained one.
And I never said that you weren't black enough for your knowledge or opinion, imobviouslystaying . Way to jump to an absurd conclusion. I just have a problem thinking that everyone who thought that the relationship between black and Jewish people wasn't harmonious was/is anti-Semetic. Maybe I am wrong. But that is why I want to look into it further.
Many hear are acting like it is not ok to ask questions about the ins and outs of this conflict.
But I must say, while I am not discounting AJL 's knowledge because she didn't know the Palestinian view of this conflict, that I agree with @littlemoxie there. I was surprised that people saying that they would like a compromise to this situation don't even know what the position of the other side is. How can you reach a compromise if you don't even know?
Edited to fix a tag and to say I haven't finished reading the whole thread only to what I responded to here.
Then you need to fucking go back and read what I goddamned said because I was pretty fucking clear on acknowledging everything you're goddamned saying up there but you're choosing to read whatever you fucking choose to and then have the fucking nerve to remark that you've read what I've had to say but you're gonna go ask some WOC.
WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK I AM?
Not the goddamned one, that's who.
I made it ABUNDANTLY FUCKING CLEAR for your reading comprehension challenged ass that there have been historical difficulties interpersonally and among communities between blacks and Jews but that there is also a rich history of assistance and fighting for equality. But time after time your simple ass wants to come back and tell me it's not fucking good enough and dismiss my entire responses out of hand.
You can fuck off with all of that.
Go back and read what I said one more goddamned time and don't bother with a fucking apology when it finally washes over you because your silly ass is blocked.
So? What do you want me to say to this? You know sometimes these statements are best left unsaid until you've read through ALL 14+ pages of a very dense thread.
I never got a chance to finish this thread, but I didn't want you to think I'd ignored this.
First off, I want to be clear that I'm only talking about your position on the history and geopolitical aspect. In no way did I mean that I would discount your experiences as a Jewish woman with antisemitism, or any knowledge with respect to the Jewish culture and religion. I understand that you know a hell of a lot more than me (hell, I had no idea about the anti-semitic connection to the term "baby killer" - I always thought that was an anti-choice thing) and wouldn't question your knowledge there. I apologize for not making that clear and any hurt or offense that my words caused.
Why I said something... well, it seemed to me that andwhat wanted unbiased information, and you responded to her, so I assumed that was what you were responding with. I've always considered you to be somewhat of an authority on this issue (on our board, that is) and it's clear you care about it and seem well informed on the topic, so I was surprised at your statement. In general I think it's a good idea to acknowledge bias. There are some situations where it's so obvious no comment is necessary (such as lawyers - of course each is only trying to help his or her side, or bunny talking about capitalism), but this wasn't the case for me here, as your comment came as a surprise to me.
In any event, I commented for two reasons beyond the general "it's good to acknowledge biases."
1. I thought perhaps this was a blind spot and you didn't realize how an offhand comment like that in the midst of a response somewhat undermines the response itself. (Of course, it's possible you do realize it and don't care, which is totally your prerogative).
2. In case there were others out there like me who generally assumed you to be unbiased, but glossed over that - I thought it needed to be highlighted.
I do not mean to derail a thread filled with such good information and experiences - I did not want you to think I'd ignored you. I phrased the comment poorly, and I apologize. Further, I will refrain from any similar comments in the future.
If you want to believe that Jewish people and black people are at odds and will always be at odds, no one can stop you. I'm sure there are racist Jews, and I know there are black people who are anti-semitic. (Louis Farrakhan and his admiration for Hilter comes immediately to mind.)
All I can tell you is that we are taught in synagogue to fight racism and bigotry in all its forms. Jewish social organizations for children teach tolerance and acceptance of all people. In my childhood Sunday School class, Black leaders, Asian leaders, Arab leaders, Latino leaders, and white leaders who preached justice and tolerance were explained to us as people to look up to. We learned about their struggles and their successes, and were taught to emulate those who fought against oppression.
There is an element of selfishness to those teachings, in that they were supposed to inspire us to stand up for our own people. But at the end of the day, the overall message of Tikkun Olam (aka Healing the World) is present in all versions of Judaism. Not every Jew practices it, but as a group we are not responsible for the actions of the few.SaveSaveSaveSave
Where are you getting that from what I am asking? I must say though that when I don't know about a subject and everyone says that it is complicated and nuanced, I do want to hear/read what the other side of the argument is. Is that wrong? I mean other people have mentioned in this very thread that depending on where you lived the relationship between black and Jewish people could have been a strained one.
And I never said that you weren't black enough for your knowledge or opinion, imobviouslystaying. Way to jump to an absurd conclusion. I just have a problem thinking that everyone who thought that the relationship between black and Jewish people wasn't harmonious was/is anti-Semetic. Maybe I am wrong. But that is why I want to look into it further.
Many hear are acting like it is not ok to ask questions about the ins and outs of this conflict.
But I must say, while I am not discounting AJL 's knowledge because she didn't know the Palestinian view of this conflict, that I agree with @littlemoxie there. I was surprised that people saying that they would like a compromise to this situation don't even know what the position of the other side is. How can you reach a compromise if you don't even know?
Edited to fix a tag and to say I haven't finished reading the whole thread only to what I responded to here.
I know you said you are trying to learn more, but this response seems very gotcha, interjecting a false/unknown experience here.
annieblah, what false/unknown experience? I really don't see a gotcha here. I am not discounting anyone's experiences in this thread. Is it wrong to want to hear another perspective though? And I don't expect to find that here, which is completely understandable.
annieblah , what false/unknown experience? I really don't see a gotcha here. I am not discounting anyone's experiences in this thread. Is it wrong to want to hear another perspective though? And I don't expect to find that here, which is completely understandable.
Its wrong to want another perspective in this thread. Not in other situations. Does that make sense? By wanting to hear another perspective HERE where people are opening up, it is being dismissive of what is being shared.
annieblah , what false/unknown experience? I really don't see a gotcha here. I am not discounting anyone's experiences in this thread. Is it wrong to want to hear another perspective though? And I don't expect to find that here, which is completely understandable.
Its wrong to want another perspective in this thread. Not in other situations. Does that make sense? By wanting to hear another perspective HERE where people are opening up, it is being dismissive of what is being shared.
annieblah , what false/unknown experience? I really don't see a gotcha here. I am not discounting anyone's experiences in this thread. Is it wrong to want to hear another perspective though? And I don't expect to find that here, which is completely understandable.
Its wrong to want another perspective in this thread. Not in other situations. Does that make sense? By wanting to hear another perspective HERE where people are opening up, it is being dismissive of what is being shared.
I agree with this...I don't know if I can completely put my finger on it, but it feels off?
annieblah, what false/unknown experience? I really don't see a gotcha here. I am not discounting anyone's experiences in this thread. Is it wrong to want to hear another perspective though? And I don't expect to find that here, which is completely understandable.
I don't think this is your intention, but it feels very much like you are trying to discount or offset the existence of anti-Semitism.
It's possible I've missed it, but I haven't seen you empathize with any of the women in this thread. Mostly you've argued about the relationships between people of color and of the Jewish faith and on behalf of the Palestinians.
While you may have worthy or valid points, it's very hard to agree with or connect with them in a thread that should be one of empathy towards people who have experienced anti-Semitism.
Definitely not my intention. I am not arguing anything on behalf of Palestinians or anyone else because I don't know anything about their point of view. I am not going to be posting here anymore because I feel like my words are not coming across as I intend them to.