Anti-semitism goes back for thousands of years. It's one of the most complex issues to understand. If we want to talk about micro-aggressions, all we need to do is look at anti-semitism for examples of just how micro those aggressions have become.
Yes. In fact, even Jews will miss some micro-aggressions that other Jews suffer based on their own experiences. But that in no way invalidates the aggression.
I do not understand what it is like to be you, and I will not pretend to know what it feels like to long for a homeland where I can feel safe.
Still waiting and we've been here six generations. I think that's what is so difficult about zionism for me as a black woman to understand. Blaxit will never happen. Maybe it's jealously? I'm gonna think about that.
For another example London Hospital had a Jewish ward separate from the main wards in 1900. Remind anyone of anything?
In my city, there was a separate hospital for the Jewish population bc they were discriminated against at the bigger hospital in town. Now they are part of the same system but that only happened like 20 years ago.
For another example London Hospital had a Jewish ward separate from the main wards in 1900. Remind anyone of anything?
In my city, there was a separate hospital for the Jewish population bc they were discriminated against at the bigger hospital in town. Now they are part of the same system but that only happened like 20 years ago.
I do not understand what it is like to be you, and I will not pretend to know what it feels like to long for a homeland where I can feel safe.
Still waiting and we've been here six generations. I think that's what is so difficult about zionism for me as a black woman to understand. Blaxit will never happen. Maybe it's jealously? I'm gonna think about that.
I do not understand what it is like to be you, and I will not pretend to know what it feels like to long for a homeland where I can feel safe.
Still waiting and we've been here six generations. I think that's what is so difficult about zionism for me as a black woman to understand. Blaxit will never happen. Maybe it's jealously? I'm gonna think about that.
And that is understandable but think of it from this perspective. Imagine that there was a Blaxit after the Civil War, a legitimate country that was recognized but because it took Texas, Texans refuse to recognize it and continuously fight to take it back and end its existence. How would you feel to have the existence of this safe place threatened and mostly by White Racists (though some legitimate issues exist)
Still waiting and we've been here six generations. I think that's what is so difficult about zionism for me as a black woman to understand. Blaxit will never happen. Maybe it's jealously? I'm gonna think about that.
And that is understandable but think of it from this perspective. Imagine that there was a Blaxit after the Civil War, a legitimate country that was recognized but because it took Texas, Texans refuse to recognize it and continuously fight to take it back and end its existence. How would you feel to have the existence of this safe place threatened and mostly by White Racists (though some legitimate issues exist)
Sins of the father man. Hopefully Blaxit wouldn't have taken an occupied place. I still feel guilty living in this country cause it was stolen.
And that is understandable but think of it from this perspective. Imagine that there was a Blaxit after the Civil War, a legitimate country that was recognized but because it took Texas, Texans refuse to recognize it and continuously fight to take it back and end its existence. How would you feel to have the existence of this safe place threatened and mostly by White Racists (though some legitimate issues exist)
Sins of the father man. Hopefully Blaxit wouldn't have taken an occupied place. I still feel guilty living in this country cause it was stolen.
Fair enough but I think that kind of greater ethics thinking is easier said then done for the majority of people. Especially When the existence of said country could have saved 6 million of those like you.
Also creating modern Israel where it is was practical. England was willing to walk away from the territory and let the Jews and Palestinians fight it out. Not much available territory in 1948 that was up for grabs. Yes the Zionist wanted it there but it was also the area that the world was willing to give them.
Sins of the father man. Hopefully Blaxit wouldn't have taken an occupied place. I still feel guilty living in this country cause it was stolen.
Fair enough but I think that kind of greater ethics thinking is easier said then done for the majority of people. Especially When the existence of said country could have saved 6 million of those like you.
It's not greater ethics. I just balance that against the 2 million slaves that died on the slave ships and the 300 years of slavery that followed.
I do not understand what it is like to be you, and I will not pretend to know what it feels like to long for a homeland where I can feel safe.
Still waiting and we've been here six generations. I think that's what is so difficult about zionism for me as a black woman to understand. Blaxit will never happen. Maybe it's jealously? I'm gonna think about that.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I am truly sorry that you feel this way. You also deserve to have a homeland and a place that you feel safe. It is unfair that you - and countless others - feel like this.
Fair enough but I think that kind of greater ethics thinking is easier said then done for the majority of people. Especially When the existence of said country could have saved 6 million of those like you.
It's not greater ethics. I just balance that against the 2 million slaves that died on the slave ships and the 300 years of slavery that followed.
I'm here not by choice but I'm staying.
I think you are missing the big difference that Palestine wasn't Palestinian. It Biblical Israel then it was Ottoman, then British then Israel again. There should be a Palestinian state but Israel should exist as well, something they won't agree to.
It's not greater ethics. I just balance that against the 2 million slaves that died on the slave ships and the 300 years of slavery that followed.
I'm here not by choice but I'm staying.
I think you are missing the big difference that Palestine wasn't Palestinian. It Biblical Israel then it was Ottoman, then British then Israel again. There should be a Palestinian state but Israel should exist as well, something they won't agree to.
No I'm aware of the difference. I was simply referring to an occupied versus unoccupied area.
Just another way in which history taught in the schools is woefully inadequate. Most of the background and nuance on these issues is lost on me. I just don't have enough context so even trying to educate myself feels like an uphill battle. I'm probably just as if not more than educated and aware than the "average" American and I still don't have even a real working understanding. But it's so important and so relevant to so much that's going on today.
Just another way in which history taught in the schools is woefully inadequate. Most of the background and nuance on these issues is lost on me. I just don't have enough context so even trying to educate myself feels like an uphill battle. I'm probably just as if not more than educated and aware than the "average" American and I still don't have even a real working understanding. But it's so important and so relevant to so much that's going on today.
(Sorry for the rambling tangent.)
My History of the Holocaust class in college was eye opening. Half the class was the history of Jews in Europe and it gave a lot of information I didn't know.
Most of the background and nuance on these issues is lost on me. I just don't have enough context so even trying to educate myself feels like an uphill battle.
In college I studied a lot about WWII on my own. Most of that study was to try to understand the why's/background of the concentration camps. I still don't feel like I know a lot of the history because there is just so much.
I've gone down many a wiki-hole, lol. I have watched documentaries and read books but the knowledge is so slippery because there is so much. I keep chipping away at it because I do find it fascinating and relevant, but it's hard because I was starting from scratch.
Coming out of high school my WWII knowledge was basically Hitler=bad. And Pearl Harbor happened. Lol. And that was AP history, too. So I didn't even take history in college.
I said this before in a thread about books on the Holocaust for children: there is so much more in the history of the Jewish people that helped shaped why the Holocaust happened and why the need for Israel is so great. It wasn't as if things were going so peachy for us until 1938 and then that dick Hitler showed up.
I think it is very important, if you want to understand what it means to be a Jew and why we yearn for our homeland, to start at the very beginning. I'm talking Abraham. I'm talking about the entire history of an ancient tribal and nomadic people. To have survived this long (somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 to 6,000 years) with so many aspects of our identity still intact, you have to wonder how and why.
I said this before in a thread about books on the Holocaust for children: there is so much more in the history of the Jewish people that helped shaped why the Holocaust happened and why the need for Israel is so great. It wasn't as if things were going so peachy for us until 1938 and then that dick Hitler showed up.
I think it is very important, if you want to understand what it means to be a Jew and why we yearn for our homeland, to start at the very beginning. I'm talking Abraham. I'm talking about the entire history of an ancient tribal and nomadic people. To have survived this long (5777 years as of a few weeks from now) with so many aspects of our identity still intact, you have to wonder how and why.
I completely agree. I think WWII is an entry point for a lot of people, but I know there's a lot more to it. I wish I had a better grasp of Jewish history and middle Eastern history, as I know they are separate but intertwined.
I said this before in a thread about books on the Holocaust for children: there is so much more in the history of the Jewish people that helped shaped why the Holocaust happened and why the need for Israel is so great. It wasn't as if things were going so peachy for us until 1938 and then that dick Hitler showed up.
I think it is very important, if you want to understand what it means to be a Jew and why we yearn for our homeland, to start at the very beginning. I'm talking Abraham. I'm talking about the entire history of an ancient tribal and nomadic people. To have survived this long (5777 years as of a few weeks from now) with so many aspects of our identity still intact, you have to wonder how and why.
I completely agree. I think WWII is an entry point for a lot of people, but I know there's a lot more to it. I wish I had a better grasp of Jewish history and middle Eastern history, as I know they are separate but intertwined.
Post by MrsAxilla on Sept 17, 2016 22:08:42 GMT -5
My MIL told us that when she was a child, her parents refused to allow her to wear glasses. It was obvious she needed them, but they never took her for an exam. When she was an adult and got them for herself, her mom would make derogatory comments ("you're much prettier withou them, they make you look old and tired, etc). This wasn't an uncommon attitude among MIL's community. Well, MIL recently discovered that the reason for this weird neglect of their child's health was because the Nazi's killed the weak, the old, the lame, and the four-eyes first. Have you seen the mountain of discarded glasses at the Holocaust Museum? They just could not shake the fear that weakness would eventually mean their death, and "protected" their child by letting her stumble blindly through her childhood. So. There's a lot to unpack with regard to anti-semitism and Jewish identity.
I completely agree. I think WWII is an entry point for a lot of people, but I know there's a lot more to it. I wish I had a better grasp of Jewish history and middle Eastern history, as I know they are separate but intertwined.
It's a personal story interwoven with biblical history. It is pretty up on the go-Jew rhetoric but I still found it very powerful.
Ooh, it's on Audible. Thanks!
Since the book gets into Esther be sure to read the book of Esther in the Bible. I did a bible study on it as an adult and I got a lot out of it that I missed as a kid. There is a lot there about this topic
In my city, there was a separate hospital for the Jewish population bc they were discriminated against at the bigger hospital in town. Now they are part of the same system but that only happened like 20 years ago.
St. Louis?
No I live inNew England in the state capital of a state founded on the basis of religious tolerance.
I think that condemning Jewish people as a whole for the crimes of the Israeli government is ridiculous. We can speak out against the atrocities and still support the Jewish people having a homeland. We can support Palestinians and still recognize that the Jews deserve and need a place to call home after all that they have survived throughout history. It's really not that difficult, but people certainly act like it is.
I hate that any of the women on this board feel marginalized and dismissed because of this thread. I do not understand what it is like to be you, and I will not pretend to know what it feels like to long for a homeland where I can feel safe. I already have that. I have always had that. Every human being deserves that.
This was really well said.
I'm sorry for my part in the "but Israel" response. I was thinking in context of creating safe places and dialogue. But if and when there's a time for that conversation, it's well after a condemnation of anti-Jewish sentiments and actions. I'm very sorry I neglected that part and the good will of the women on this board.
Still waiting and we've been here six generations. I think that's what is so difficult about zionism for me as a black woman to understand. Blaxit will never happen. Maybe it's jealously? I'm gonna think about that.
And that is understandable but think of it from this perspective. Imagine that there was a Blaxit after the Civil War, a legitimate country that was recognized but because it took Texas, Texans refuse to recognize it and continuously fight to take it back and end its existence. How would you feel to have the existence of this safe place threatened and mostly by White Racists (though some legitimate issues exist)
I know I am late to this, but this is the point I guess I don't understand. You admit that the land Israel wants belonged to someone else. Now there is a lot about Jewish history I don't know or understand. I do know the Biblical parts but after that I am lost. Anyway, if the land was someone else's and those people are still there, can you not understand why they just don't want to give it to Israel (even though it is considered Jewish homeland)? To me this is like Native Americans. They were here first and a more powerful people came to their land, killed, raped, pillaged, all the things that happened to Jews. And then left them on worse off and second-class citizens. I would think most American Jews (or Jews period) would be on the side of Native Americans. Why is this any different?
I mean given your example above, no I wouldn't want to leave Texas if that is where Blaxit was created, but I could certainly understand the Texans who wanted their damn land back. And like I said I don't know all the nuances and this is definitely a subject I try to learn more about. But this is the biggest part I just don't get. So what am I missing?
And that is understandable but think of it from this perspective. Imagine that there was a Blaxit after the Civil War, a legitimate country that was recognized but because it took Texas, Texans refuse to recognize it and continuously fight to take it back and end its existence. How would you feel to have the existence of this safe place threatened and mostly by White Racists (though some legitimate issues exist)
I know I am late to this, but this is the point I guess I don't understand. You admit that the land Israel wants belonged to someone else. Now there is a lot about Jewish history I don't know or understand. I do know the Biblical parts but after that I am lost. Anyway, if the land was someone else's and those people are still there, can you not understand why they just don't want to give it to Israel (even though it is considered Jewish homeland)? To me this is like Native Americans. They were here first and a more powerful people came to their land, killed, raped, pillaged, all the things that happened to Jews. And then left them on worse off and second-class citizens. I would think most American Jews (or Jews period) would be on the side of Native Americans. Why is this any different?
I mean given your example above, no I wouldn't want to leave Texas if that is where Blaxit was created, but I could certainly understand the Texans who wanted their damn land back. And like I said I don't know all the nuances and this is definitely a subject I try to learn more about. But this is the biggest part I just don't get. So what am I missing?
That to many Jews they didn't take the land so much as reclaim land that was already theirs that had been stolen from them by the Ottomans and should have been returned at the end of WWI when the Ottoman Empire fell.
I know I am late to this, but this is the point I guess I don't understand. You admit that the land Israel wants belonged to someone else. Now there is a lot about Jewish history I don't know or understand. I do know the Biblical parts but after that I am lost. Anyway, if the land was someone else's and those people are still there, can you not understand why they just don't want to give it to Israel (even though it is considered Jewish homeland)? To me this is like Native Americans. They were here first and a more powerful people came to their land, killed, raped, pillaged, all the things that happened to Jews. And then left them on worse off and second-class citizens. I would think most American Jews (or Jews period) would be on the side of Native Americans. Why is this any different?
I mean given your example above, no I wouldn't want to leave Texas if that is where Blaxit was created, but I could certainly understand the Texans who wanted their damn land back. And like I said I don't know all the nuances and this is definitely a subject I try to learn more about. But this is the biggest part I just don't get. So what am I missing?
That to many Jews they didn't take the land so much as reclaim land that was already theirs that had been stolen from them by the Ottomans and should have been returned at the end of WWI when the Ottoman Empire fell.
OK. Like I said I don't know the history, but your first post made it sound like it was basically said, here Jews you want a homeland take this over here and the Palestinians were there, but had no power to fight it. And so Jews started living there, made it their homeland and now don't want to give it up. I remember last time there was a serious discussion on this issue there being several dated maps about when land was occupied and by whom. I am going to try to look that up today. I just remember feeling a little sympathetic to Palestinians, but I don't remember why. This is definitely a subject I want to be more educated on but it is seriously hard to find unbiased information. But you have given me something to do with my boring day at work.
I said this before in a thread about books on the Holocaust for children: there is so much more in the history of the Jewish people that helped shaped why the Holocaust happened and why the need for Israel is so great. It wasn't as if things were going so peachy for us until 1938 and then that dick Hitler showed up.
the book Hitler's Willing Executioners is useful for this, a history of the Jewish relationship to Europe.
Also, even a Wikipedia read about the medieval anti-Jewish mobs or pogroms all over Eastern Europe in the 1800 and 1900's (long before Hitler).