(sorta @)The invisible workload that drags women down

[persa]

Dec 31, 2016 14:28:52 GMT -5 greeneggs said:

This is my miserable life. I do all the fucking responsible adulting in the house and it's killing me. I'm on the verge of a nervous and physical breakdown from all the stress of trying to manage every fucking thing all the goddamn time and I don't know how much longer I can keep this up.

Hugs. I'm sorry. I feel you.

[aurora]

Dec 31, 2016 16:50:51 GMT -5 AJL said:

What will happen if you stop managing it all? What will happen if you stop worrying about all the minutia of your family lives and just take things as they come?

I challenged myself with these questions a few years ago and what I found out is that it lightened my mental load, things still got done, my partner started to pick up part of the mental load and we're both much happier for it.

This. Beyond of course making sure any children are fed and healthy (and I realize this is non-trivial), there is a lot of stuff that can be let go.

It really bugs me to wake up and not have coffee supplies, so I make sure we're stocked. That dent in the hood of our car? It doesn't bother me. If he wants to get it fixed, he knows how to do so.

[georgeharrison]

I must be extra emotional, but this made me cry. Sometimes I feel so overwhelmed. My husband cooks dinner almost every night, but other than that, I do pretty much everything. Thakfully, I only work about 25 hours\week. I almost took a job working full time about a year ago, and the thought of that had me terrified. My hat is off to women who work full time and do it all at home, too.

[bitsandpieces]

These articles always make me feel terrible. Especially when you ladies add your own experiences. I am the husband in my household in many ways right now. We do okay, but I know it is a burden to DH sometimes. There are definitely things that I am more mentally on top of than he is, but I know he feels the mental burden of running the household and finances. All I can say is that I don't take it for granted and I'm always working on being better involved at supporting him/us.

[LanaLang]

It really is so hard. DH tries, I know he does. But he just doesn't do the mental stuff or the small stuff. He grew up in a less than desirable childhood, to put it mildly, and he just doesn't see a lot of this stuff. What would happen if I didn't do it? We'd eat McDonald's every day. Literally. Things would fall apart. We'd miss appointments. He's come a long long way and worked hard to get here, so I'm patient and it's getting better.

[Jalapeñomel]

In addition to my DH stepping up, I've learned to just not sweat the small stuff.

Granted, I only have one kid, but we have a good system. My home life doesn't really stress me out right now.

I do think that my life would be flipped upside down if we had another, and I do wonder if my marriage could handle another child.

[greeneggs]

Jan 1, 2017 11:06:42 GMT -5 LanaLang said:

It really is so hard. DH tries, I know he does. But he just doesn't do the mental stuff or the small stuff. He grew up in a less than desirable childhood, to put it mildly, and he just doesn't see a lot of this stuff. What would happen if I didn't do it? We'd eat McDonald's every day. Literally. Things would fall apart. We'd miss appointments. He's come a long long way and worked hard to get here, so I'm patient and it's getting better.

Exactly.  I go out of town for a weekend two to three times a year by myself and a few trips with DS and I have to plan that shit like a D-Day invasion because DH cannot be trusted to act like an adult without supervision.  Even if I leave plenty of high value leftovers in the fridge for a weekend at least two meals are going to be takeout.  If he has to go to the store for a small thing toilet paper, milk, or toothpaste he's guaranteed to buy at minimum $30 worth of shit we don't need.  He and DS just sit around in his office watching TV and playing video games for all day long.  If there's someplace they need to be while I'm out of town, like a birthday party, soccer game, or Sunday school, I have to nag the hell out of him and remind him that I have a mama network everywhere and will know if they don't do what needs to be done.  

It's exhausting because I'm always responsible to making everything happen all the time.  He manages to do the dishes after dinner with minimal fuss from me but dishes outside of mealtimes, taking out the trash and recycling, cleaning the cat boxes, scooping the backyard, or just general tidying and helping me with anything requires a direct request.  So far today I've had to nag him to pick up the floor so I can vacuum, sweep the kitchen (I gave up on mopping), and had our third conversation this month about adding his personal card to the family Prime account so his hobbies don't fuck our budget more than they already do.  I had to remind him to go visit his sick and elderly mother and will probably have to nag him twice a week to drive 10 minutes across town to her house to check up on her for the rest of her life.  He did clean out the whole garage this weekend on his own but filled our trash and recycling bins to capacity so I'm not sure what we're going to do with our day to day waste since pickup's not until Thursday.  I wonder who's going to be responsible for figuring that out...

[aurora]

greeneggs, you sound exhausted. What would happen if you choose not to nag him to do Sunday school or birthdays when you were gone? Would it really be so bad if they just didn't go? It would be a load off your back. Similarly, why do you feel like you have to nag him re. his mom? Let him either go help her or not. This is not your responsibility. He doesn't pick up? Then you don't have to vacuum.

Some of the rest of the stuff sounds like a money issue, not so much who's responsible. Most people would say no big deal if they have two take out meals while you're gone, but then I got to the point about him blowing your budget with Amazon Prime, which makes me wonder if take out is a problem because you can't afford it. Things that are money issues will take more work/communication than just letting other things go. But if you can isolate these issues, the list won't feel so overwhelming.

[wanderlustmom]

I think for us it's been about communication. I am always going to see when the house is dirty before DH. But we both dislike clutter. At first, I only saw the laundry. Now we both do. He handles all the bills and all of the kids sports. I cook and buy gifts. Our patterns work for us and when they don't--we talk

[pinkdutchtulips]

Jan 1, 2017 12:07:51 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

In addition to my DH stepping up, I've learned to just not sweat the small stuff.

Granted, I only have one kid, but we have a good system. My home life doesn't really stress me out right now.

I do think that my life would be flipped upside down if we had another, and I do wonder if my marriage could handle another child.

if you take away xh' addiction issues, this was the primary reason I was OAD.

I could function fine w one but 2 would have sent me over the edge.

[Jalapeñomel]

Jan 1, 2017 17:31:04 GMT -5 pinkdutchtulips said:

Jan 1, 2017 12:07:51 GMT -5 Jalapeñomel said:

In addition to my DH stepping up, I've learned to just not sweat the small stuff.

Granted, I only have one kid, but we have a good system. My home life doesn't really stress me out right now.

I do think that my life would be flipped upside down if we had another, and I do wonder if my marriage could handle another child.

if you take away xh' addiction issues, this was the primary reason I was OAD.

I could function fine w one but 2 would have sent me over the edge.

We're trying for another, but I think we are armed with better ammo to prepare this time. I hope.

[persa]

Dec 31, 2016 16:50:51 GMT -5 AJL said:

What will happen if you stop managing it all? What will happen if you stop worrying about all the minutia of your family lives and just take things as they come?

I challenged myself with these questions a few years ago and what I found out is that it lightened my mental load, things still got done, my partner started to pick up part of the mental load and we're both much happier for it.

What will happen is DS's meds and supplies won't get refilled on time. His doctors appointments won't get made.

The kids won't get picked up on time when I'm working evenings. The laundry won't get done. The household supplies won't get bought. Dinner won't get made. Bedtime will be even more of a shit show than it already is.

On and on. And yes, I suppose if I died or magically disappeared from those duties, *eventually* he would figure it out but I can't manage to live through that. And I can't jeopardize DS's health to make a point.

[AJL]

persa you have a unique and new situation in your family, so one wouldn't suggest you simply just let those things go and hope your husband just gets it. But that doesn't mean there are not other things that can be let go and left for ones spouse to pick up.

(not directed at you, persa, but just in general response to this topic)
I think we as women have a tendency to take on so many things in a relationship without really discussing our needs with our partner and expressing our expectations to them.  When we do express our needs and expectations and are met with a less than satisfactory response, we simply take up our duties again, not realizing that we can let things go even if they never get picked up by our partners. If we don't want to let those things go, at some point we have to come to accept that we're self imposing those burdens. 

Now don't infer that I'm saying this is an easy thing to do. It's certainly not!  I am loathe to let just about anything go and not "sweat the small stuff."  But I've found so much relief and happiness at realizing that a) my spouse is capable of "adulting" and taking care of things and b) it's OK to look out for my needs and managing the minutiae of our lives is typically a poor use of my time and causes me to sacrifice my happiness.

[goldengirlz]

I think the better question is why are so many DHs so useless?

Maybe because I've always had a heavy work travel schedule but DH does not miss a beat without me. Laundry, meal planning, doctor's appointments, bills, various school and aftercare events and supplies -- he's on top of it all. He's even traveled alone with DD, by plane, multiple times, including packing for her.

I don't know if I married well, or I just never expected any less, or what. But for a board with so many self-proclaimed feminists, I find the above responses sad and surprising.

[fancynewbeesly]

This is spot on for me. Although DH helps out and does a lot--he brings DD to her oncologist appointments more than me, he still asks me what questions. When she needed her daily chemo-he would give it to her but I had to measure it. (she had to take while sleeping). For the holidays, I do all the shopping. I remember birthday parties, showers and other gift giving things.

My mind is always turning with internal reminders, things that need to get done.

[eddy]

Jan 2, 2017 9:33:37 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

I often wonder if any of this has generational context.
Kirk is 31. He (and our relationship) doesn't fit the mold when these husband conversations pop up. Neither do the men in our peer groups.
The descriptions that the texts alludes to being universal doesn't compute at all. He's way more domestic than I am, and always has been.

I do the social calendaring, packing of travel bags, and day to day school stuff, but other than that, I don't do any home related tasks. Sometimes I'll fold laundry to keep him company. Either he does things on the homefront (he's great at that sort of stuff), or we outsource.

It's part of our balance as partners.
I bring the generational thing up because I remember reading texts (and seeing in parenting circles) about how millennial fathers are more hands on(adjusting career paths to be home, proudly wearing baby carriers, SAHDs, etc. ).

I wonder this too. We are on the millennial cusp. Also H's dad did all of the parenting for quite a few years as MIL had a night job. So H grew up watching the father play an increasingly active role in the family.

I will always be grateful to my mom. The only advice she gave me and gave it to me several times was to expect greatness out of my husband. Also not to spoil him by taking on the brunt of the work. My mom did do this and it was very hard for her to unravel that dynamic. I watched it and I was hell bent on not putting myself through this.

We aren't perfect. We have to revisit our rolls often. But right now we are in a really good place as far as workload dynamic.

[chedifuen]

I can't relate to this article. Long ago, we divided up the household and I don't think about his responsibilities at all. For example, I'm responsible for well-child checks and he is in charge of dentist appointments. I don't waste mental space worrying about if he's making appointments and taking the kids because I married an adult and he's fully capable of handling it without my intervention. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be my husband.

I took us a bit of time to find that the arrangement of dividing up tasks works best for us and I would say it's pretty even and generally we both do what we prefer and outsource the rest. Our kids are old enough to have a lot of things they help with, including handling the majority of the laundry and kitchen cleanup.

[persa]

I don't know if it's generational or not. My H is 38, so older than a millennial. And he grew up with a working mother but she was a working mother that still did everything for the family.

When he does clean up and grocery shop and cook, he's very good at it. He's actually better at it than me. But I have the schedule that allows for cooking, etc. since I get home befoe he does.

To AJL's point, that probably proves that there are probably some things I could just stop doing and let him pick up but we also have some communication issues we have to work on and I suspect he has some ADHD issues he needs to address also.

[redwino]

Jan 2, 2017 9:33:37 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

I often wonder if any of this has generational context.
Kirk is 31. He (and our relationship) doesn't fit the mold when these husband conversations pop up. Neither do the men in our peer groups.
The descriptions that the texts alludes to being universal doesn't compute at all. He's way more domestic than I am, and always has been.

I do the social calendaring, packing of travel bags, and day to day school stuff, but other than that, I don't do any home related tasks. Sometimes I'll fold laundry to keep him company. Either he does things on the homefront (he's great at that sort of stuff), or we outsource.

It's part of our balance as partners.
I bring the generational thing up because I remember reading texts (and seeing in parenting circles) about how millennial fathers are more hands on(adjusting career paths to be home, proudly wearing baby carriers, SAHDs, etc. ).

The men in my circle fall on the cusp and just outside of millennials, 35-40, but I see more balanced relationships and responsible fathers. I've attributed these things to culture and SES but generation is likely a component too. My MIL worked nights and FIL was in the military so DH and BIL were responsible for a lot of their daily needs when they became teens. Most of the people I know were responsible for laundry and meals for themselves and siblings as teens. They have continued to do these things for their families. I also know quite a few guys who are/have been single fathers. They manage their kids schedules and keep them fed just fine. All of the fathers with daughters can do decent hair too.

I frequently wonder how does the balance get off in the relationships in the article. Were these men never living alone, feeding themselves, and paying their own bills? If they were, why can't they do it now? Something I've had to accept is that I can't complain about DH not doing something if I won't let him do it his way. I'm responsible for all the clothes in the house because DH would have dd dressed in the toddler equivalent of a Polo and khakis. I make the shopping list because I like variety, and I'm in charge of the social calendar because he's a true introvert and only wants to see people when necessary. Likewise, he's responsible for cars, house maintenance, and finances because he doesn't like how I take care of those things.

[mrspez07]

I'm in a profession that is both design and production based. I work with engineers, architects and landscape architects on behalf of private clients to submit drawing packages to cities for approvals. In offices of all sizes, the majority of these "coordinator/conductor" roles fall to the women in the profession because we are naturally good at multi-tasking, anticipating the issues and playing coordinator between developer and city staff. That rolls into our at-home roles too, with or without kids. We are naturally programmed to multitask and that includes the mental side as well.

The article notes that once we give up that mental tracking and share it, things would be equal. I'm not sure I want that, at least for me, being the one to track these things assures they are being done, and double-checking DH does neither of us any good. Maybe that's my control-freak side coming thru.

[kicks]

Jan 2, 2017 11:50:04 GMT -5 redwino said:

Jan 2, 2017 9:33:37 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

I often wonder if any of this has generational context.
Kirk is 31. He (and our relationship) doesn't fit the mold when these husband conversations pop up. Neither do the men in our peer groups.
The descriptions that the texts alludes to being universal doesn't compute at all. He's way more domestic than I am, and always has been.

I do the social calendaring, packing of travel bags, and day to day school stuff, but other than that, I don't do any home related tasks. Sometimes I'll fold laundry to keep him company. Either he does things on the homefront (he's great at that sort of stuff), or we outsource.

It's part of our balance as partners.
I bring the generational thing up because I remember reading texts (and seeing in parenting circles) about how millennial fathers are more hands on(adjusting career paths to be home, proudly wearing baby carriers, SAHDs, etc. ).

The men in my circle fall on the cusp and just outside of millennials, 35-40, but I see more balanced relationships and responsible fathers. I've attributed these things to culture and SES but generation is likely a component too. My MIL worked nights and FIL was in the military so DH and BIL were responsible for a lot of their daily needs when they became teens. Most of the people I know were responsible for laundry and meals for themselves and siblings as teens. They have continued to do these things for their families. I also know quite a few guys who are/have been single fathers. They manage their kids schedules and keep them fed just fine. All of the fathers with daughters can do decent hair too.

I frequently wonder how does the balance get off in the relationships in the article. Were these men never living alone, feeding themselves, and paying their own bills? If they were, why can't they do it now? Something I've had to accept is that I can't complain about DH not doing something if I won't let him do it his way. I'm responsible for all the clothes in the house because DH would have dd dressed in the toddler equivalent of a Polo and khakis. I make the shopping list because I like variety, and I'm in charge of the social calendar because he's a true introvert and only wants to see people when necessary. Likewise, he's responsible for cars, house maintenance, and finances because he doesn't like how I take care of those things.

Yes I often wonder what these men were like while dating.

I think it's a combination of my laid back personality and being up front about my expectations while dating. I refuse to be with a man who doesn't do at least half the cooking, cleaning and household tasks like paying bills. And if a partner isn't like that while dating, don't expect them to change once you get married and/or have kids.

My boyfriend has lived pretty successfully for 40 years, so I don't need to micromanage him and the house in my mind. If he didn't notice things needed replacing or cook most of the meals or do his laundry and keep common areas clean, then I would get out of the relationship with a quickness. I wouldn't expect him to change in to a different person.

Lastly, I do think women do make it harder on themselves and sweat the small stuff. For example, the past few weeks there have been so many posts about being stressed out around the holidays. Someone posted about being worried about their kids present getting delivered and it was 2 weeks before Christmas. I think those kind of things do take up too much mental energy that some people put on themselves.

[marriedfilingjoint]

Our first assignment in marriage counseling was to write out our expectations of ourselves and each other and the idea was to get us talking about these imbalances.

@@@

DH chips in with a lot of this invisible workload--he meal plans, he does ALL the grocery shopping, he keeps up with the pets' and kid's well visit appointments and medications. His blind spot was that since he has an hour commute, any time J wakes up sick or school calls and sends her home sick, J has a dental or vision appointment in the middle of the day, a pet needs to go to the vet, a repair person needs to come over, etc., it falls on me by default and I miss a ton of work being the only one dealing with these little things as they pop up.

He's better than he used to be but I was harboring a ton of resentment that I saw this coming way before J was born and I went part time. He resented me working part time so I upped my hours. I was part time on paper but I got asked to work extra so much that I was working almost full time hours for less pay and no benefits, plus I wanted to be fully invested in my career, so I went full time. And when stuff around the house stopped getting done, I was very clear that we were both working full time and we both shared responsibility for household matters now.

In my observation, nothing was going to be good enough for him unless I worked full time and did everything his mom did for his family, even though my career is more demanding and I don't have family offering free daycare. His dad did not do anything related to the household or child care. He was just fun dad when he was home. Sorry, glad that worked for your mom and dad but it's not working for me. You want a household, you want a marriage, you want children, you help, and you do it without being asked all the time.

[marriedfilingjoint]

Jan 2, 2017 12:11:23 GMT -5 kicks said:

Jan 2, 2017 11:50:04 GMT -5 redwino said:

The men in my circle fall on the cusp and just outside of millennials, 35-40, but I see more balanced relationships and responsible fathers. I've attributed these things to culture and SES but generation is likely a component too. My MIL worked nights and FIL was in the military so DH and BIL were responsible for a lot of their daily needs when they became teens. Most of the people I know were responsible for laundry and meals for themselves and siblings as teens. They have continued to do these things for their families. I also know quite a few guys who are/have been single fathers. They manage their kids schedules and keep them fed just fine. All of the fathers with daughters can do decent hair too.

I frequently wonder how does the balance get off in the relationships in the article. Were these men never living alone, feeding themselves, and paying their own bills? If they were, why can't they do it now? Something I've had to accept is that I can't complain about DH not doing something if I won't let him do it his way. I'm responsible for all the clothes in the house because DH would have dd dressed in the toddler equivalent of a Polo and khakis. I make the shopping list because I like variety, and I'm in charge of the social calendar because he's a true introvert and only wants to see people when necessary. Likewise, he's responsible for cars, house maintenance, and finances because he doesn't like how I take care of those things.

Lastly, I do think women do make it harder on themselves and sweat the small stuff. For example, the past few weeks there have been so many posts about being stressed out around the holidays. Someone posted about being worried about their kids present getting delivered and it was 2 weeks before Christmas. I think those kind of things do take up too much mental energy that some people put on themselves.

Yes. We all have different priorities so if something is important to you and not important to me, that's cool, you do you. But you have to recognize when it's adding unnecessary stress to your life and ask yourself if it's worth it, because you can't do it all. My coworker just had a baby and she said everyone is getting gift cards for Christmas. She gets it.

People seem to get really mad about the advice "sleep when the baby sleeps" when you have a newborn and you're on maternity leave and it's your first (or older child is at school). "That's when I get stuff done!" Ok, but your partner should be doing a lot of it, even if it means (God forbid) he or she is doing more than half the workload for a bit while you recover.

[goldengirlz]

Jan 2, 2017 11:59:36 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

I'm in a profession that is both design and production based. I work with engineers, architects and landscape architects on behalf of private clients to submit drawing packages to cities for approvals. In offices of all sizes, the majority of these "coordinator/conductor" roles fall to the women in the profession because we are naturally good at multi-tasking, anticipating the issues and playing coordinator between developer and city staff. That rolls into our at-home roles too, with or without kids. We are naturally programmed to multitask and that includes the mental side as well.

The article notes that once we give up that mental tracking and share it, things would be equal. I'm not sure I want that, at least for me, being the one to track these things assures they are being done, and double-checking DH does neither of us any good. Maybe that's my control-freak side coming thru.

The bolded is what I refuse to believe. I don't believe we are innately better at these things because we are women -- to the extent we may be better at them, it's because we're told we need to be. If the house is dirty, if the kids forget to bring in money for the book fair, who gets judged for that? The husband?

There's a strong element of "boys will be boys" I'm hearing here, like an '80s sitcom of the adorably inept husband who can't figure out which end of the baby to diaper.

The cynical part of me also wonders if these "coordinator/conductor" roles pay as much as the engineering jobs.

[kicks]

Jan 2, 2017 11:59:36 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

The article notes that once we give up that mental tracking and share it, things would be equal. I'm not sure I want that, at least for me, being the one to track these things assures they are being done, and double-checking DH does neither of us any good. Maybe that's my control-freak side coming thru.

See for me I want to be with a partner that I don't feel as though I need to double check to make sure things are done. We are both adults. If you're in charge of groceries and cooking, I don't need to double check that we have food in the house and you have a menu planned.

Sure we both remind each other of things that need to get done but I feel that's just the natural flow of things, not that either of us have to be constantly checking up on the other one or being the one who does the majority of tasks because you don't trust the other person. I want an equal partner, not a child.

So I agree that once you give up the mental tracking and share it, things will (or at least in theory) be equal. If you (universal you) don't want to live that way, then I think that's on you, which is why I said I do think that some women make it harder on themselves and unfortunately have no one else to blame but themselves.

[marriedfilingjoint]

Jan 2, 2017 12:58:09 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jan 2, 2017 11:59:36 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

I'm in a profession that is both design and production based. I work with engineers, architects and landscape architects on behalf of private clients to submit drawing packages to cities for approvals. In offices of all sizes, the majority of these "coordinator/conductor" roles fall to the women in the profession because we are naturally good at multi-tasking, anticipating the issues and playing coordinator between developer and city staff. That rolls into our at-home roles too, with or without kids. We are naturally programmed to multitask and that includes the mental side as well.

The article notes that once we give up that mental tracking and share it, things would be equal. I'm not sure I want that, at least for me, being the one to track these things assures they are being done, and double-checking DH does neither of us any good. Maybe that's my control-freak side coming thru.

The bolded is what I refuse to believe. I don't believe we are innately better at these things because we are women -- to the extent we may be better at them, it's because we're told we need to be. If the house is dirty, if the kids forget to bring in money for the book fair, who gets judged for that? The husband?

There's a strong element of "boys will boys" I'm hearing here, like an '80s sitcom of the adorably inept husband who can't figure out which end of the baby to diaper.

The cynical part of me also wonders if these "coordinator/conductor" roles pay as much as the engineering jobs.

Yeah, it's not biological, but it is culturally ingrained from childhood. Maybe I'm too optimistic but can this start to change as husbands and fathers share this type of work at home, children in play settings don't strictly adhere to role-playing games that previous generations would assign to one sex or the other, etc.?

I work in a male-dominated field so I get being asked to do the party planning, etc. The firm where I work has a person dedicated to that sort of thing so it's not an issue here, but outside the office, within our professional society, it's always women planning events. If we didn't do it, it wouldn't get done. And for socials, that's fine. I have no problem saying "plan your own social." But important things like scholarship night wouldn't happen if women weren't doing the legwork. We delegate all we can but it would be nice not to have to be in charge, just one year, even. It takes time away from billable work, and men aren't the only ones who have a charge hour goal.

[steamboat185]

I don't see any of this in our relationship. We are 37 so not millennial. DH doesn't do everything, but neither do I. Reading this it just seems so over the top.

[Deleted]

Some of y'all need to 1.) let things go or 2.) start flipping tables.

[redwino]

Jan 2, 2017 13:18:16 GMT -5 marriedfilingjoint said:

Jan 2, 2017 12:58:09 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

The bolded is what I refuse to believe. I don't believe we are innately better at these things because we are women -- to the extent we may be better at them, it's because we're told we need to be. If the house is dirty, if the kids forget to bring in money for the book fair, who gets judged for that? The husband?

There's a strong element of "boys will boys" I'm hearing here, like an '80s sitcom of the adorably inept husband who can't figure out which end of the baby to diaper.

The cynical part of me also wonders if these "coordinator/conductor" roles pay as much as the engineering jobs.

Yeah, it's not biological, but it is culturally ingrained from childhood. Maybe I'm too optimistic but can this start to change as husbands and fathers share this type of work at home, children in play settings don't strictly adhere to role-playing games that previous generations would assign to one sex or the other, etc.?

I work in a male-dominated field so I get being asked to do the party planning, etc. The firm where I work has a person dedicated to that sort of thing so it's not an issue here, but outside the office, within our professional society, it's always women planning events. If we didn't do it, it wouldn't get done. And for socials, that's fine. I have no problem saying "plan your own social." But important things like scholarship night wouldn't happen if women weren't doing the legwork. We delegate all we can but it would be nice not to have to be in charge, just one year, even. It takes time away from billable work, and men aren't the only ones who have a charge hour goal.

My husband is active in his a grad chapter of his fraternity. They plan fundraisers, community service events, and all of membership events without the help of women. Sure some of these things are rituals and traditions that have remained the same for generations but there are new initiatives and events that they create and coordinate yearly. Men are capable of these things and do them when necessary.

[fancynewbeesly]

marriedfilingjoint,

That is interesting. DH works with mostly women, and he says all the social planning falls on him--because they either a) don't care or b) can't decide.

He said that if he didn't make arrangements, there would be no birthday celebrations, holiday parties etc. And most of the "parties" are simple--just deciding a day/time/restaurant to go to. (since there are only about 7 people in the branch)