@246baje ,you were not an offender. It's the people being all "how can you call yourself feminists?!??!!" I already forgot who said that and am too lazy to look it up.
I made that comment (or at least one of those comments) and it wasn't my intention to shame anyone here, and I apologize for that. I "liked" some of the posts saying as much to acknowledge that I've read and understood the point.
My girlfriends often ask me how I "got" DH to be so involved, and truthfully ... who knows.
-I do know I married someone whose parents had a very egalitarian relationship -- and I also know my parents had a very 1950s-style (and tumultuous) marriage that deeply affected me.
-I distinctly remember the moment I decided that being a woman was for the birds. DH and I had just moved in with each other, but weren't married (or even engaged yet.) He was out with friends and I was folding laundry -- both our laundry. I was like, no, I'm not doing this. I still rarely fold his laundry.
-I can be a bad mother, by societal standards anyway. For instance, I hated the infant period. From the time DD was 6 weeks old, I was leaving them alone together about once a week while I went to happy hour with my friends. This was a kid who had colic, who refused to take a bottle (especially at home, and only grudgingly at daycare). So there were definitely days when I came home to a screaming infant and/or a cranky husband. That sounds terrible, right? But because I needed that me-time, DH had no choice. And now they're better bonded because of it.
-I may be broken. I can't manage to load a dishwasher properly (I do it like the picture above and DH is always fixing it) and I ruin pasta. I love my child but have minimal maternal instinct. Half the time her hair is a mess and sometimes I get distracted and forget to feed her until she reminds me. DH, OTOH, has endless patience. He knows the names of all her favorite toys. He remembers to pack the snacks when we travel. He's definitely our rock.
So ... I don't know. Maybe getting to 50-50 means you don't fit society's mold in some way. The answer is likely unique to each couple. It's definitely been interesting reading the responses.
I'm happy for all of the women in here who have 50-50 splits. I really am! The research shows that split is SO rare that scholars can't even find enough of them (or enough even 55-45 couples) to do more than just small-scale studies. But, I also think we need to be more considerate of the women who are feeling taken advantage of. Structural constraints, socialization, and cultural expectations are REALLY hard to overcome. If someone can't do that, the answer isn't to say some version of, "What's wrong with you that you haven't made things equal yet?!?" but to offer suggestions and ask how we can help. Think if we treated other forms of inequality that way...."Why don't you, structurally oppressed person, just unilaterally fix it?"
I'll say that I'm a feminist who heads a gender studies program and studies the division of labor, for God's sake, and things are still 60/40 or 65/35 me at my house! I am married to a fabulous, feminist man, who will do anything I ask. But, that's the key---I still have to do the asking when it comes to the irregular, invisible labor. The remembering part all falls to me. I am able to be super Type A because I have a Type B husband who is willing to be a trailing spouse. The trade-off is that I'm the one who has to remember to put "dog needs more heartworm meds" and "buy light bulbs" on his list. We come from different social class backgrounds, so I have a vastly different expectation of retirement (i.e., before age 75+) than he does and have to allocate resources accordingly. Otherwise, we'd live in the moment. I am the one who sees that the blueberries have gone bad and need to be tossed, in large part because I am the one who makes sure we eat blueberries. If he meal planned, he would quite literally be OK with the 7 meal rotation (lasagna with salad-steak and potatoes-burgers and hot dogs with chips-salsbury steak and raw veggies-pot roast with carrots and potatoes-vegetable soup from leftover pot roast-take out pizza) that his dad cooks.
I don't want to have to make a to-do list for my adult husband. The biggest fight of our marriage was one in which I ended up shooting out a snot bubble while sobbing, "You.never.buy.stamps!" (at which point we both started laughing.) BUT, he's kind, and thoughtful, and sweet, and sexy. And, he is completely comfortable with me being me, supports my career 100% (to the point where he changed his own profession 180 degrees to be able to follow me to wherever my job takes me,) and puts up with just the right amount of my shit. So, if the trade off is that I have to literally write down on a sheet of paper "bring in the flower pots" or "wade through old magazine stack," I'm OK with that. After all- he's probably thinking, "She's great, but I have to eat vegetarian several times a week and see her (difficult) parents monthly and she's so lazy that she takes a nap pretty much every day."
The good news is that relationship satisfaction is not related to equality so much as equity in household chores. It doesn't matter if it's truly 50-50. It matters if, overall, for whatever reason, it feels fair. I hope everyone can find an arrangement that feels fair.
I'm so with you here. I also really thing that our upbringings really influence our expectations and what we are patterned to do. My sister's DH grew up in a military family and he is a complete stickler. They never have a speck of dirt anywhere and he's OCD about it. (like diagnosable) For quite a while he made her do all of it until she had a CTJ with him and now they split it evenly, mental included.
My DH grew up with no father and sometimes no mother. He lived in shacks, crappy apartments, and was homeless for a few years. When there was a place to live, there wasn't cooking or housework, and she was a hoarder. The changes he has made in his expectations are phenomenal.
But I grew up in the Beaver Cleaver household where mom grew our food in the garden and sewed our clothes and the house was always mostly clean, so my expectations of what the place is going to look like are different. If I want us to eat healthy, I have to make it happen because he'll default to doritos in a heartbeat. I'm the one who grew up weeding gardens and doing preventative work on the house, etc. After 13 years there are still so many things he's learning, like regrouting tile and such.
My DH is the most loving, caring husband and father ever, and he works so hard to be a great man, both for his family and professionally. There are just many ways of living that will never be natural to him, which means I have to pick up a lot of that extra mental workload. He'll do it if I give him a list, but yes, it's that list that can be cumbersome.
My H and I are millennials and he's a super involved parent - always the first person I talk about our kids to and that helps a lot I think. I process and mentally unload things on him as much as possible if I feel like I need it even though a lot of kid stuff falls to me since I SAH. I keep him in the loop so I think he sees a lot of the invisible work I do. He does the same with his areas (finances, car stuff, etc.) Several things said in the course of this post resonated with me, in particular ESF and @kirkette posts.
I think it's important to work to your strengths and be self aware. And place value on all the things going on in the house that each of you do. That was something we struggled with early on - both of us seeing what we did but not the other. And accepting the strengths of the other and adapting as needed when life changes. For example, I had dinner ready when that fool came home today and he was sure he'd get home (late even) and still have to cook dinner even though I'd been home all day because I hate cooking and he does it more than I do (I do meal planning and grocery shopping though). Over the years I've taken on more and more cooking because he gets home later and his job is more demanding while mine (SAHM) has gotten less with two kids school aged.
Another example of how our dynamic works and the invisible things he thinks of or handles: Him: did you turn up the water heater? Me (dead serious): uh no, where is the water heater? Him: BETH!!! What would you do if I died? (He was also dead serious) Me: sell the house, and either move in with your parents or buy a townhome that comes with no maintenance from me.
So yeah. I do all kid stuff and a lot of housework stuff and even many things for him. But he does a lot too and I don't even know where that shit is.
I'm not saying people's complaints aren't valid but I think we (humans) often get this idea of how things should look and which jobs we should do and on and on - reality is different. Lots of things we do in this house track with gender roles or our jobs (with me being a SAHM) but that's never the root reason. It's because of where our individual strengths lie.
I also agree with the "not a mind reader thing". How are they supposed to know? I wouldn't like it much if my H went around in a huff and I had no idea why and finally after days of cajoling I discovered he really wanted me to buy XYZ when I was at the store and I forgot to.
Why do we women do these things to ourselves?
Generally my H is good but there have been times when I've had to talk to him and say "I do the cooking every night and you are supposed to vacuum/dust/mop etc. and you haven't been doing that enough and I'm certainly not getting out the vacuum and there is a lot of dog hair .." and he'll say sorry, I'll try harder, and get up and vacuum.
What would it achieve if I just huffed and took out the vacuum myself and starting doing all his work and my own? well he'd just think, oh great, I can keep relaxing here then! NO SIR.
This is obnoxious.
Hmm you are right. I guess I was trying to be kind of flippant but reading back it didn't come off that way. I can see how this would seem like I was patting myself on the back .. but really I am including myself in the "we women" because I still do those things. And I know my H would be happy to kick back while I did it all so I was picturing him doing it and getting annoyed ...
Anyway I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings. Even though my H does housework we have issues too and I doubt it's a 50/50 split for us either.
Also I don't think I am maternal at all. Life just worked out this way and the best situation for our family is me at home, so I make the best of it. I have a feeling those of you who say you aren't maternal are excellent mothers. I know I am Being naturally maternal (or maternal period) isn't what matters. Nor is being what we traditionally see as a mother either.
Also I don't think I am maternal at all. Life just worked out this way and the best situation for our family is me at home, so I make the best of it. I have a feeling those of you who say you aren't maternal are excellent mothers. I know I am Being naturally maternal (or maternal period) isn't what matters. Nor is being what we traditionally see as a mother either.
This is true.
And yet empirical data show that women are still primarily the default parent and do extra work to run households (even starting as early as wedding planning). So it must be part nature and part society expectations for men/women.
I guess my point is that with a lot of data and studies showing it's still uneven, it seems like it should be on men to get it by now... not just a select few, like some of the kick ass husbands here, but a majority at least, right?
My H and I talked about this at length yesterday. He is the type of partner that is fully involved in "second shift." He seemed to think the reason for him being that way is because his parents required him to be very independent. They are both workaholics and so he had to care for himself starting around age 10. He was expected to make himself basic meals, do laundry, etc. He often arranged his own rides home from school activities. We talked about how it's somewhat interesting that his little brother is NOT as independent. My H proposed that it was because he did that kind of thing *for* his little brother.
IDK. Anecdotes, I know. But I thought I'd relay the conversation we had.
This is why I advocate so hard for Ben's independence and maybe hold him to a higher standard than DH does. DH was the younger brother and I don't think he was expected to do much.
My H and I talked about this at length yesterday. He is the type of partner that is fully involved in "second shift." He seemed to think the reason for him being that way is because his parents required him to be very independent. They are both workaholics and so he had to care for himself starting around age 10. He was expected to make himself basic meals, do laundry, etc. He often arranged his own rides home from school activities. We talked about how it's somewhat interesting that his little brother is NOT as independent. My H proposed that it was because he did that kind of thing *for* his little brother.
IDK. Anecdotes, I know. But I thought I'd relay the conversation we had.
This is why I advocate so hard for Ben's independence and maybe hold him to a higher standard than DH does. DH was the younger brother and I don't think he was expected to do much.
Thank you.
This is going to sound petty as hell but I don't care. DH has a cousin who has a son and a daughter. The son is a little shit. Always has been. I think he's 11 now. He can do no wrong and he's their little baseball star who is going to go pro :eye roll:. They are so hard on the little girl. The boy picks a fight with her, they start arguing, she gets called out, he gets nothing. She has to clear the table after dinner. She has to do all the chores.
So when they are at our house, I ask him to clear the table. When we all opened Christmas presents, I asked him to pick up all the trash. I even had him help me load the dishwasher. What are his parents going to say? I dare them to say something. Their daughter was keeping all the little kids occupied so they weren't going to make her stop.
persa you have a unique and new situation in your family, so one wouldn't suggest you simply just let those things go and hope your husband just gets it. But that doesn't mean there are not other things that can be let go and left for ones spouse to pick up.
(not directed at you, persa, but just in general response to this topic) I think we as women have a tendency to take on so many things in a relationship without really discussing our needs with our partner and expressing our expectations to them. When we do express our needs and expectations and are met with a less than satisfactory response, we simply take up our duties again, not realizing that we can let things go even if they never get picked up by our partners. If we don't want to let those things go, at some point we have to come to accept that we're self imposing those burdens.
Now don't infer that I'm saying this is an easy thing to do. It's certainly not! I am loathe to let just about anything go and not "sweat the small stuff." But I've found so much relief and happiness at realizing that a) my spouse is capable of "adulting" and taking care of things and b) it's OK to look out for my needs and managing the minutiae of our lives is typically a poor use of my time and causes me to sacrifice my happiness.
Yes, but as a young woman, you are applauded for doing it all. Starting a career, house, chores, etc. It's sort of a thing that we teach girls from early on the "have it all mentality." It's not intentional, it's just that they see their moms doing a lot (cleaning, cooking, shopping, full-time work, going out with friends, etc.) - then we hide the struggles from the girls and applaud them for being able to letter in sports while keeping straight A's. It's ingrained in girls to do a lot - or even more - than boys.
Maybe it's generational, but then you do that early in a relationship with a male, who also has these strong women roll-models maybe, and they always see women getting ish done and then it's 10 years into a relationship with a house and three kids and all of a sudden you realize how uneven things really are. A decade of that is tough to counter in 12 months ... and usually is tough when it's wrapped up in emotions about kids and careers too. And not sweating the small stuff is not the key - and not supportive to people who are in an uneven situation. Talking a lot, some fighting/come-to-Jesus talks, and some real consequences (maybe having a bill sent to collections or a bad credit report or a call from the school) is what might have to happen. It's more that partners need to feel the consequences and realize how to fix it in their relationship.
I'm super laid back about dishes and cleaning, but really... it feels big when you leave for a week of work and return to kids who missed appointments, a call from the school because your kid was so late that they were unexcused (no, they didn't call my DH - me only and I made them call him after they called me), and a house that looks like a tornado. It feels like your spouse doesn't care or acknowledge the work that needs to be done and therefore doesn't value you. That's a big thing IMO and feeling devalued is not fixed by getting over the small stuff or trying to just ignore that issue.
YES!!! I've always been very proud of the fact that I can do it all and don't "need" a man to help me. But even though I can do it all myself doesn't mean that it's healthy for me to do so, or that I want to anymore. I know some of it is personality based, but there are just certain things that I can't drop because if I do then they don't happen. Including dr appts, new clothes and shoes that fit the kids, etc. My H does a lot, but there are just some things he doesn't seem super aware of and it's very possible that's my fault.
This is hard to quantify in my relationship. I think we're pretty close to 50/50, especially now that I'm working full time so picking up some financial slack while not doing any more chores than before (I'm the lazy spouse where cleaning is concerned).
I am absolutely the primary parent. I did all motn wake ups when the kids were babies and, 4yrs layer, they still follow me around the house like ducklings whenever they see me. I rarely have a quiet moment. There are always errands to run, more meals to plan and more laundry to do...This weekend he fixed one of the drawers that broke in Ds2's dresser and made a comment about how it should be switched to be the bottom drawer in case it breaks again. I just looked at him and said "you do realize that the sliders on the current bottom drawer are completely broken off? That's why it's on the bottom." So, you can guess how often he gets the kids dressed or goes through their clothes at all.
But I've realized dh always has a lot on his mind too. I can see he does the dishes, cleans the toilets and takes out the trash, but he's also planning car maintenance, buying antifreeze, paying our bills and projecting our savings, shovelling snow, planning when he can mow the lawn in our busy weekends...
We were chatting last night and the subject came up that if he needs to take 4 bags of trash/recycling + compost bin to the road, the reason it takes forever is because he's trudging back and forth over 1.5km by the time he goes up and down our driveway 3 times. So I decided to try to be less annoyed about him taking forever (in my mind) when I'm stuck alone with fighting kids.
I also agree with pp who said that different standards for cleanliness can cause a lot of issues*. If I don't care about clutter I'm not going to deal with it when I have free time. I grew up in cluttered houses, I don't even see it. But dh sees me ignoring clutter and assumes that I assume that he'll do it if I ignore it because he can't unsee clutter. So he feels like he's doing more than his fair share of the work and I feel like I'm doing a reasonable amount and that he has unreasonable expectations of cleanliness and order. We've been working on this issue a lot since the kids were born, and I think we're in a good place where he's relaxed a bit on some things and I've made a conscious effort to be somewhat tidier out of respect for him.
*obviously in cases where the anal partner is also the partner doing less work, this doesn't apply.
downtoearth and ijack - re being applauded for doing it all....this manifests in my relationship by my occasionally just shouting, "I AM A DELICATE FLOWER GODDAMMIT"
I half-jokingly whine sometimes that I made a terrible tactical error by establishing myself as a strong independent woman early in my relationship (and life). Because now I'm expected to be both strong and independent all the damn time and sometimes I just don't fucking want to. it came up a lot during our reno, when people would be surprised that it wasn't MH doing all the work while I did lady stuff. On one hand, fuck that, half of those power tools are MINE. WHICH I OWNED BEFORE I MET HIM. Also I'm a goddamn engineer too. And also I'm tough and strong and HEAR ME ROAR. But on the other hand....No, I don't want to help you carry that couch up and down the stairs, I'M A DELICATE FLOWER. No, I don't want to dig a 30 ft trench across the backyard to fix our drainage, I'M A DELICATE FLOWER. No I don't want to install tile in three bathrooms while 7 months pregnant, I'M A DELICATE FLOWER. But I dated guys before MH that treated me like a delicate flower and 90% of the time it drove me batshit insane, so I accept that I can't have my cake and eat it too on this one.
I might be decorative, but I am in fact some sort of super-hardy self-propagating perennial. I might even be a mint varietal. Dammit.
In my circle of friends and family, I know that the men feel some level of stress to be it all-bread winner, successful career, great father, great husband, productive member of society, etc.
There is a culture shift happening, albeit slowly. H took 3 months off of work (at various chunks within 6 months of the boys being born) and although it is allowed, has not been encouraged. He is lucky enough to be high enough in rank that he can somewhat make his own rules. Its not everywhere though. His BF is a Big Law partner. He took 3 days off after his kids' births although he was allowed 2 weeks because, "It's a known expectation that you don't really take it."
The desire to want to have it all extends to men too.
downtoearth and ijack - re being applauded for doing it all....this manifests in my relationship by my occasionally just shouting, "I AM A DELICATE FLOWER GODDAMMIT"
I half-jokingly whine sometimes that I made a terrible tactical error by establishing myself as a strong independent woman early in my relationship (and life). Because now I'm expected to be both strong and independent all the damn time and sometimes I just don't fucking want to. it came up a lot during our reno, when people would be surprised that it wasn't MH doing all the work while I did lady stuff. On one hand, fuck that, half of those power tools are MINE. WHICH I OWNED BEFORE I MET HIM. Also I'm a goddamn engineer too. And also I'm tough and strong and HEAR ME ROAR. But on the other hand....No, I don't want to help you carry that couch up and down the stairs, I'M A DELICATE FLOWER. No, I don't want to dig a 30 ft trench across the backyard to fix our drainage, I'M A DELICATE FLOWER. No I don't want to install tile in three bathrooms while 7 months pregnant, I'M A DELICATE FLOWER. But I dated guys before MH that treated me like a delicate flower and 90% of the time it drove me batshit insane, so I accept that I can't have my cake and eat it too on this one.
I might be decorative, but I am in fact some sort of super-hardy self-propagating perennial. I might even be a mint varietal. Dammit.
THIS !!! Everyone just expects me to be self sufficient and independent and able to get stuff done on my own w/o anyone's help. It was at its worst when I had dd bc literally no one offered to help, everyone just assumed that I'd manage a newborn like I managed everything else ... damn it ! The ONE time I truly needed help, it fell on totally deaf ears including my then husband's. No woman should be grocery shopping 3 days after delivery ! Of course, now I'm single and it's all on me again but I'm realizing that this self sufficiency has a way of scaring guys away if that makes sense ?!? I dont NEED a guy, I want one ... which is creating all sorts of problems but I digress ....
Hmmm - not sure what to think yet. I vacillate between wanting to react like this...
because men don't have much mental health support, or communicate this level of stress
and this...
because it seems to be saying that women can't complain about unequal relationship work to men since men are so bad at communicating their needs.
This.
I would care more about this guy's plight if it wasn't written as a reactionary piece trying to take away from the validity of the other piece. If it was a stand-alone, I could be more sympathetic, because these are valid concerns. But instead, it reads like "wha wha wha wha men suffer toooooooo." Shut up, dude.
Post by marriedfilingjoint on Jan 9, 2017 15:26:40 GMT -5
I don't know what to make of this Josh Levs guy. I'm reading his Twitter, and he goes from saying completely reasonable things, like paid family leave benefits all of us, to sounding like the Man Who Has it All parody account, but not in an ironic way.
Post by wesleycrusher on Jan 9, 2017 20:50:29 GMT -5
From the article about men: I did more than 150 hours of interviews with fathers from different walks of life. I asked them how “stretched out” they feel on a scale of 1 to 10. Virtually all said 10; two said eight.
So I asked and my husband said 4. I have really hard time believing no man said less than an eight. I wondered how he worded this that made men answer that way? DH and I both work FT, he is in the process of getting his masters degree, and we have 2 kids- one of whom we are in the process of adopting from foster care.
ETA: And it's not because I'm the stretched one, I would probably rate myself a 6.
From the article about men: I did more than 150 hours of interviews with fathers from different walks of life. I asked them how “stretched out” they feel on a scale of 1 to 10. Virtually all said 10; two said eight.
So I asked and my husband said 4. I have really hard time believing no man said less than an eight. I wondered how he worded this that made men answer that way? DH and I both work FT, he is in the process of getting his masters degree, and we have 2 kids- one of whom we are in the process of adopting from foster care.
ETA: And it's not because I'm the stretched one, I would probably rate myself a 6.
Besides, it was all self-reported and it was clear what his purpose was in asking. How scientific.
From the article about men: I did more than 150 hours of interviews with fathers from different walks of life. I asked them how “stretched out” they feel on a scale of 1 to 10. Virtually all said 10; two said eight.
So I asked and my husband said 4. I have really hard time believing no man said less than an eight. I wondered how he worded this that made men answer that way? DH and I both work FT, he is in the process of getting his masters degree, and we have 2 kids- one of whom we are in the process of adopting from foster care.
ETA: And it's not because I'm the stretched one, I would probably rate myself a 6.
My husband gave himself a 4 too. And doubted that the majority of men are attached 8 and above.
From the article about men: I did more than 150 hours of interviews with fathers from different walks of life. I asked them how “stretched out” they feel on a scale of 1 to 10. Virtually all said 10; two said eight.
So I asked and my husband said 4. I have really hard time believing no man said less than an eight. I wondered how he worded this that made men answer that way? DH and I both work FT, he is in the process of getting his masters degree, and we have 2 kids- one of whom we are in the process of adopting from foster care.
ETA: And it's not because I'm the stretched one, I would probably rate myself a 6.
My husband would rate himself a 10 but that's because he has "severe anxiety disorder" that I consider the man flu of mental health since most of his anxiety triggers seem to be doing things he doesn't want to do like commuting to his office, going to his parent's houses to help care for them, going to my dad or mutual friends' homes for social gatherings, or taking DS to do something fun for more than 30 minutes. We've had numerous fights where I've been called ableist for demanding that he put on his damn pants and act like a fucking adult instead of pushing everything on me while he takes his sweet time "getting better".
He saw this article over my shoulder and I'm sure he's read it and will refer back to points made in it next time I start trying to force him to leave the damn house.
From the article about men: I did more than 150 hours of interviews with fathers from different walks of life. I asked them how “stretched out” they feel on a scale of 1 to 10. Virtually all said 10; two said eight.
So I asked and my husband said 4. I have really hard time believing no man said less than an eight. I wondered how he worded this that made men answer that way? DH and I both work FT, he is in the process of getting his masters degree, and we have 2 kids- one of whom we are in the process of adopting from foster care.
ETA: And it's not because I'm the stretched one, I would probably rate myself a 6.
My husband would rate himself a 10 but that's because he has "severe anxiety disorder" that I consider the man flu of mental health since most of his anxiety triggers seem to be doing things he doesn't want to do like commuting to his office, going to his parent's houses to help care for them, going to my dad or mutual friends' homes for social gatherings, or taking DS to do something fun for more than 30 minutes. We've had numerous fights where I've been called ableist for demanding that he put on his damn pants and act like a fucking adult instead of pushing everything on me while he takes his sweet time "getting better".
He saw this article over my shoulder and I'm sure he's read it and will refer back to points made in it next time I start trying to force him to leave the damn house.
Has your H been diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is he in treatment? Anxiety is a real thing that can be treated with therapy and medication, but both of you have to recognize it as an illness or nothing is ever going to get better. Having anxiety doesn't excuse him from his responsibilities but it can help identify tools that will work for him.
My husband would rate himself a 10 but that's because he has "severe anxiety disorder" that I consider the man flu of mental health since most of his anxiety triggers seem to be doing things he doesn't want to do like commuting to his office, going to his parent's houses to help care for them, going to my dad or mutual friends' homes for social gatherings, or taking DS to do something fun for more than 30 minutes. We've had numerous fights where I've been called ableist for demanding that he put on his damn pants and act like a fucking adult instead of pushing everything on me while he takes his sweet time "getting better".
He saw this article over my shoulder and I'm sure he's read it and will refer back to points made in it next time I start trying to force him to leave the damn house.
Has your H been diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is he in treatment? Anxiety is a real thing that can be treated with therapy and medication, but both of you have to recognize it as an illness or nothing is ever going to get better. Having anxiety doesn't excuse him from his responsibilities but it can help identify tools that will work for him.
His anxiety is real and he is on medication but is not currently in therapy. I'm not disputing his diagnosis but I'm pissed as hell that I have to be an endless and non-judgmental source of support while my already precarious mental and physical health are crumbling under the stress of taking care of the whole household and him. I also suffer from anxiety, severe depression, chronic pain but the basic shit still has to get done even if it's hard. I'd be far more sympathetic if I was seeing more effort into developing some kind of coping skills to be able to handle the stressors of everyday life instead of being told to be more patient and understanding while he plays his video games to relax. We've been dealing with this since April and I'm long past my breaking point.
Has your H been diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is he in treatment? Anxiety is a real thing that can be treated with therapy and medication, but both of you have to recognize it as an illness or nothing is ever going to get better. Having anxiety doesn't excuse him from his responsibilities but it can help identify tools that will work for him.
His anxiety is real and he is on medication but is not currently in therapy. I'm not disputing his diagnosis but I'm pissed as hell that I have to be an endless and non-judgmental source of support while my already precarious mental and physical health are crumbling under the stress of taking care of the whole household and him. I also suffer from anxiety, severe depression, chronic pain but the basic shit still has to get done even if it's hard. I'd be far more sympathetic if I was seeing more effort into developing some kind of coping skills to be able to handle the stressors of everyday life instead of being told to be more patient and understanding while he plays his video games to relax. We've been dealing with this since April and I'm long past my breaking point.
I'm sorry greeneggs, your H needs to decide if he is going to be an active participant in the family he has helped create. My brother and SIL divorced after 16 years of marriage and 3 kids. A lot of it was ex SIL's depression and anxiety. My brother tried to be supportive, but he got very overwhelmed and frustrated because he felt like she wasn't doing work to get better. According to him, she lied during couples therapy sessions, would work really hard to put on a good show for people outside the house then crumble and stay in bed for days. He felt like he was always her last priority. It might sound whiney but he just felt like she wasn't committed to the marriage, just to putting on a show of a happy family. Everyone in the family felt the loss when they did divorce. But, he is happier than he has been in a long time. He is remarried and she is engaged. I think the divorce ended up being the best thing for both of them. While I'm not saying that you and H should get divorced, I think it is important to recognize that you have the right to be happy.
H and I do pretty much split things 50/50, or as 50/50 as you can get given my job (its super flexible and I telework 3 days a week, so I'm usually the one to stay home with a sick kid or whatever. It's not because I'm the mom, it's because I have an obscene amount of leave and no one cares if I take a random day off.) so more of some kid-related stuff does fall on me because of that. Daycare is at my work so I end up doing more of the daycare communication.
But for me, it's not just the actual workload. I do feel like my mind is going more about the kids. I keep a mental list of what clothes they need, when to switch the clothes over, when they need something for daycare,what activities they might do in the spring or summer, etc. H thinks about these things too but I don't think it's as constant in his head as it is in mine. I sent him a similar article a few years ago and he read it and then said to me - "okay, I see what this article is saying. How can we change this?" And the answer is I don't really know.
But part of the issue is that H will come to me in a month and say "hey! I thought of a great idea for DS1 for the summer" and I'll be like OMG I'VE BEEN THINKING OF SUMMER FOR 4 MONTHS AND THAT IS NOT IN MY PLANS. And that's......not his fault, lol.
We ran out of milk this AM so H said "I'll stop on the way home and get more milk" before I realized we were out. So that kind of stuff falls pretty equally on both of us. I don't track when we're out of TP. Whoever notices we are getting low orders more TP. He does the grocery shopping so he is better attuned to their peanut butter needs or whatever.
But there is a mental aspect to it that I can't turn off, and like I said, it's not his fault. I sometimes wonder if social media feeds into it. I see other moms post things and think "oh crap! I hadn't even thought of that!" I'm not so self-confident to just say "well I'm doing me, so I'll ignore that." Even if someone posts something about their 2 year old in soccer I stress about whether my two year old should be in soccer too, etc. I need to learn to process those things differently. Sometimes I wonder if this is anxiety-related but I'm not sure.
A lot of our struggles with this issue come from the fact that my husband has pretty severe ADD. It's better now that he's medicated, but some of the adulting is super hard for him and very easy for me. We try to divide things up that play to our strengths, so that unfortunately puts a lot of the mental work on me.
bex , I have long thought that MMM is basically a place where people go to convince themselves that anxiety = love. It seems like that is a common thought process amongst UMC white women. I don't know if it stems from the need to fit in/keep up or what, but with a few posters gone (tambcat, starry, this, vicmo) that seems to have died down a bit. Or maybe there is just a smaller proportion of FTM on the board with young kids. In any event, I do think that many moms seem to think that constantly worrying about their kids is a sign of love, and so they compete to see who can be the most stressed/anxious about everything.
I'm not putting down anyone with real anxiety disorders, btw. I'm talking about all the weird competitions on who could be the least breezy about the most amount of things. Then if someone didn't care as much, there was weird judgment. Maybe it's just "Mean Girls: Mom Edition."
I've only recently put my toe in the water of the parenting boards here. When I was pg with DD and soon after her birth, I was sort of active on the old "Bump" boards. Sometimes they are just too much. I do think that social media has exacerbated many mom's feeling of inadequacy and anxiety. Just because one person does something doesn't mean that it's normal or expected or whatever. There have always been moms who had uber-clean, uber-organized houses. The difference is that until 2005, they weren't posting pictures and sharing their meal plans and cleaning schedules with the world.
Hmmm - not sure what to think yet. I vacillate between wanting to react like this...
because men don't have much mental health support, or communicate this level of stress
and this...
because it seems to be saying that women can't complain about unequal relationship work to men since men are so bad at communicating their needs.
This.
I would care more about this guy's plight if it wasn't written as a reactionary piece trying to take away from the validity of the other piece. If it was a stand-alone, I could be more sympathetic, because these are valid concerns. But instead, it reads like "wha wha wha wha men suffer toooooooo." Shut up, dude.
Yes.
Look, my H is the breadwinner, but I would say 75% of our issues with money stem from the fact that he just buys what he wants when he wants it and then goes "oh, I guess I should sell some stuff so we can pay our bills this month." Meanwhile, I wear boots that have leather peeling off them and shop for clothes for myself and the kids solely at the thrift store and discount stores because I'm too worried about being able to pay the bills for the next 6 months.
I love my husband greatly, but his long-term vision, with regards to spending and most basic household stuff, is kind of poor. It's taken 11 years of prodding and reminding that turns into nagging to get it to where I can say "hey, can you stop at the store after work and pick up x, y and z" and it actually happens. (Thanks to Siri, because I told him to use his goddamn phone to remember shit I ask him to do.)
Has your H been diagnosed by a psychiatrist? Is he in treatment? Anxiety is a real thing that can be treated with therapy and medication, but both of you have to recognize it as an illness or nothing is ever going to get better. Having anxiety doesn't excuse him from his responsibilities but it can help identify tools that will work for him.
His anxiety is real and he is on medication but is not currently in therapy. I'm not disputing his diagnosis but I'm pissed as hell that I have to be an endless and non-judgmental source of support while my already precarious mental and physical health are crumbling under the stress of taking care of the whole household and him. I also suffer from anxiety, severe depression, chronic pain but the basic shit still has to get done even if it's hard. I'd be far more sympathetic if I was seeing more effort into developing some kind of coping skills to be able to handle the stressors of everyday life instead of being told to be more patient and understanding while he plays his video games to relax. We've been dealing with this since April and I'm long past my breaking point.
sub chronic lower back pain for anxiety and you have my xh. I was in pretty much your shoes having to take care of everyone AND everything bc stuff needed to get done and there wasn't anyone else to do it. I know how you're feeling and it's stressful to say the least. I constantly felt like I was at the breaking point and god forbid i said anything bc then I wouldn't be the supportive wife he needed. Major hugs and hair pats and a very stiff drink your way - you deserve it !