I haven't seen this discussed here: the controversy about Gal Gadot who was an Israeli soldier and her support of Israeli troops, particularly during the 2014 assault on Gaza that killed almost 500 Palestinian kids and over 250 women. I will admit that I'm not that well versed in Israeli-Palestinian relations other than the very basics. I know that the film has been banned in Lebanon and I personally know folks who are not palestinians who will not see this movie because of her background. Would love to know thoughts on this to expand my own knowledge.
Dang! I'm just about to leave to pick-up DD from camp. I'm book marking this to read when I get back.
As a little background, and I don't know how much you've lurked around here, but this is a subject, the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, that can get pretty touchy and passionate.
Dang! I'm just about to leave to pick-up DD from camp. I'm book marking this to read when I get back.
As a little background, and I don't know how active you are on this board, but this is a subject, the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, that has been very touchy around here.
I mean, as a person in the military, sure, someone has every right to dislike me based on actions our military has taken that I personally took no (or minimal) part in. I've participated in military campaigns that I'm sure several people disagree with based on political, moral, ethical, or religious grounds.
I believe that I am a good person doing my duty to our nation. If people take issue with that, then whatever. Fine, it's their right (that I put my life on the line to defend).
OK, so I've read all the articles while waiting for my daughter's camp at the JCC to finish for the day, so I'm ridiculously biased right now.
First, she served just as all her fellow Israeli citizens served. It's compulsory and few Israelis ever opt out of that service. So, no, her IDF service doesn't bother me at all. Neither does her support for the soldiers in the IDF.
Second, her IG post praying for the safety of her fellow soldiers did not seem to advocate for the killing of Palestinian civilians. She was condemning Hamas.
Third, I dismiss anyone's commentary when they make claims that the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government is an Apartheid state. It is not. Period.
Every single one of those articles is anti-Semitic.
Article 1
"But this isn’t new, Israel maintains a brutal grip on Palestinians and their daily lives. It is a settler colonialist power and feminists who support it are not feminists if they give zero fucks about Palestinian civilians being brutally oppressed on a daily basis."
This is such a bullshit point of view that it causes heartburn. Are you a feminist if you feel proud to be an American? By this logic, you shouldn't because here in America the collective we allow the murder of its black citizens by our militarized police force daily. How about the laws that actively discriminate against POC and LGBT people? How about the fact that we once practiced slavery?
Also, I don't personally know a single Israeli who calls for the destruction of Palestine. I'm sure there are renegades filled with hate on the outskirts, but generally Israelis want peaceful co-existance. I know for a fact that most pro-Palestian organizations, like BDS and Hamas, want the destruction of Israel to occur, and they don't care if Jews are murdered in the process. After all, we should all be pushed into the sea, right?
Article 2
"As reported by Amnesty International, there’s no shortage of evidence that occupation of Palestinian land has resulted in an Apartheid state."
I've gone off on this before. Suffice to say, if you say the word Apartheid relating to Israel, I am convinced that you are an ignorant fool.
Article 3
"The post, which has since been resurrected on social media, was met with immense backlash, calling Gadot out as a Zionist (which is defined as someone who supports the occupation of Palestinian land by Israel, which includes the war crimes committed by the Israeli military.)"
FUCK ALL Y'ALL trying to take the dream of a place where we can be Jews and not EXTERMINATED and reframe it as an act of war against a neighboring people. I am a Zionist; I believe in the need for a Jewish state. Why, because ignorant fucks will use me until they get what they want, and then kill me out of jealousy, despair, or for fucking fun.
None of these fucking things in these articles are true. Gadot posted her pro-IDF Instagram post when the IDF went into Gaza to stop CONSTANT FUCKING ROCKETS BEING RAINED DOWN ON ISRAEL BY HAMAS. HAMAS, THE FUCKING TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THAT OPPRESSES THE PALESTINIANS AND CALLS ON THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL IN ITS FUCKING CHARTER.
I'm so fucking sick of this shit. You can have a problem with Israel when you show that you have the same or bigger problems with other countries who perpetuate worse things daily, including the Palestinian government. No one is innocent in the Middle East conflict, the US and Europe included. When you blame only the Jews, you are a bigot. End of story.
Post by claudiajean on Jun 22, 2017 17:04:58 GMT -5
Also, there is a movie depicting A strong female hero, and we are supposed to discredit it because the star was in her country's military while rapist Casey Affleck can win an Oscar. No thank you.
Post by sugarglider on Jun 22, 2017 17:15:30 GMT -5
I don't consider myself a Zionist per se, and I have often found myself cringing at Israeli propaganda posted by friends on social media. But I find it difficult to fault Gadot for serving the minimum requisite time in the IDF.
Question generally: is it possible to be anti-Zionist without being antisemetic? If so is it rare?
I don't consider myself a Zionist per se, and I have often found myself cringing at Israeli propaganda posted by friends on social media. But I find it difficult to fault Gadot for serving the minimum requisite time in the IDF.
Question generally: is it possible to be anti-Zionist without being antisemetic? If so is it rare?
. In reality I have yet to know someone who identifies as Anti-Zionist that wasn't also anti-Semitic.
It might could happen but the Anti-Semites have taken the Anti-Zionist thing to the point I don't think so.
Partly because so much of the Anti-Zionist position is against the existence of Israel and so much of that position comes back to Anti-Semitism at its base.
Anti-Zionist is just the acceptable way of saying Anti-Semitic.
I believe it is possible to support the existence and well-being of Israel and her citizens and the peaceful co-existence with a Palestinian state while at the same time denouncing questionable policies the Israeli government puts in to place that have a negative impact on Palestinians in *occupied territories (*I know that can be problematical verbiage.)
It's the difference between being a patriot and being a nationalist. I am not an Israeli nationalist but I would consider myself an Israeli patriot. I also find that some actions against Palestinians in Israel's history are antithetical to Jewish tenets.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
Apologies if it seems I was jumping on the OP. I intended my comments to be expressing my opinions on the articles, not the OP.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
The posts read more to me like they're attacking/disagreeing with the articles linked in the OP, rather than the OP herself. I could be wrong though.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
I think we're jumping on the viewpoints in the articles she posted, not her personally.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
Apologies if it seems I was jumping on the OP. I intended my comments to be expressing my opinions on the articles, not the OP.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
The posts read more to me like attacking they're attacking/disagreeing with the articles linked in the OP, rather than the OP herself. I could be wrong though.
Sorry. I misunderstood then. It definitely felt to me like the issue was with OP or that the OP agreed with the content of what was in the articles.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
Well, she presented extremely anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish, biased material and she got told about it. We're angry at the articles presented and have said as much.
I'm pretty sure when people come on to this board with material that is very biased in some way, they get the heat strongly. It's not just on this subject.
And if we're going to talk about your experience the last time we had a talk about the middle east, you spent a lot of time being willfully ignorant and asking us to teach you about something you could have looked up yourself. It's not our, Jews on this board, job to teach anyone about Isreali-Palestinian geopolitical issues.
This same kind of reaction happens when white posters waltz into threads about racism and don't do their homework. You can't have it both ways.
Ignorant question: does Zion refer to having a Jewish state or does it refer to specific borders in Isreal (namely including the whole of Jerusalem)?
I realize it's no one's job to educate me, but I'm worried that googling would produce biased results.
Honestly, start with Wikipedia. It's not perfect but it's going to be more neutral than anything else. Modern Zionism was first introduced during the late 1890s. Theodr Hertzel is considered the founder of modern Zionism. Start there.
I feel like the OP is being jumped all over for asking a question in which she expressed no personal opinion and said she wanted to expand her knowledge. OP this is how all threads on this topic go. It is a complicated woven history but if you have any questions they are seen negatively at least in my experience.
Well, she presented extremely anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish, biased material and she got told about it. We're angry at the articles presented and have said as much.
I'm pretty sure when people come on to this board with material that is very biased in some way, they get the heat strongly. It's not just on this subject.
And if we're going to talk about your experience the last time we had a talk about the middle east, you spent a lot of time being willfully ignorant and asking us to teach you about something you could have looked up yourself. It's not our, Jews on this board, job to teach anyone about Isreali-Palestinian geopolitical issues.
This same kind of reaction happens when white posters waltz into threads about racism and don't do their homework. You can't have it both ways.
Well other than the medium which I wouldn't rely on an objective opinion of anything, I don't think it is easy to tell what is considered biased on this subject. I am not familiar with the other two sources she posted. I took her post as this is what I have been hearing some people say and these articles are like what I have been hearing. Not that she agreed or disagreed with them. If this is a subject you know nothing about, you may not see the anti-Jewish language as easily as someone who is familiar with the topic. And I am not talking about relating it to apartheid, but some other subtle language that may not be obvious to outsiders.
I didn't spend a lot of time doing anything in the past. I asked a question based on the very little bit of information I had heard. I didn't want people to think I was just making stuff up off the top of my head and I was trying to show that there are clearly people out there who have the same wrong understanding that I did and that this information was out there and clearly people are believing it. It is not any Jewish person's job to teach anyone anything, but if you go looking for sources again it is hard to decipher what is credible and what isn't. Even when I tried to look up books on the subject I was told by posters that the authors were biased. Nothing that I read about the synopsis of the book or anything in their bios would have led me to see that. And then there were people with Palestinian heritage posting what they felt were credible sources but was in complete contradiction with what Jewish posters were posting.
At this point there are tons of non-biased article on the plight of black people in America. I don't think there are as many or easily decipherable sources on this conflict.
But you have already made your decision about me regarding this topic so I am sure nothing I posted will matter. I knew how this post was going to go from the OP as soon as I saw medium as one of the articles. I just don't personally think that was the OPs intent.
Ignorant question: does Zion refer to having a Jewish state or does it refer to specific borders in Isreal (namely including the whole of Jerusalem)?
I realize it's no one's job to educate me, but I'm worried that googling would produce biased results.
Honestly, start with Wikipedia. It's not perfect but it's going to be more neutral than anything else. Modern Zionism was first introduced during the late 1890s. Theodr Hertzel is considered the founder of modern Zionism. Start there.
Honestly, start with Wikipedia. It's not perfect but it's going to be more neutral than anything else. Modern Zionism was first introduced during the late 1890s. Theodr Hertzel is considered the founder of modern Zionism. Start there.
Hold up. Why are you being nice to this poster, when you just jumped on another poster for "being willfully ignorant and asking us to teach you about something you could have looked up yourself." You telling me that she couldn't look up what Zion is? I'm just saying.
She could have and I told her to. I said start with Wikipedia. I also said roughly the same thing to andwhat the last time this topic came up.
Post by hopecounts on Jun 22, 2017 18:28:36 GMT -5
andwhat the best place to start is Wikipedia as mentioned. Then read up on the expulsions of Jews from France, Spain, and England. Then read up on the Pogroms in Russia. Then read up on The Dreyfus Affair The voyage of the St. Louis Read up on Blue Laws and why Jewish summer retreats (Kellerman's in Dirty Dancing is a great fictional example of a Jewish resort) existed Read up on Jewish right of return to Israel
The reality is you can't see the Israel/Palestine issue clearly if you don't get WHY it's so important to the Jewish people. It's a touchy subject for Jews because they have always been at risk of being scapegoated, attacked and kicked out of any country they live in. They need Israel to have a safe harbor the next time that happens. Given the current environment that might be sooner the later so yes when the right of existence for Israel is challenged they get touchy.
Honestly, start with Wikipedia. It's not perfect but it's going to be more neutral than anything else. Modern Zionism was first introduced during the late 1890s. Theodr Hertzel is considered the founder of modern Zionism. Start there.
Hold up. Why are you being nice to this poster, when you just jumped on another poster for "being willfully ignorant and asking us to teach you about something you could have looked up yourself." You telling me that she couldn't look up what Zion is? I'm just saying.
Because we have been nice and made the same suggestion more then once before,to andwhat
This is not the first time we have had this conversation with her.
Because we have been nice and made the same suggestion more then once before,to andwhat
But she didn't ask for it this time, unless I'm missing something.
She has a history of refusing to listen to Jewish posters. That's why they (and I) are testy with her. That's my point. We have gone around on this with her multiple times in different threads.
So yes a poster asking a real question looking for a real answer gets a nicer response then someone who has been given multiple suggestions of how to learn more about this.
Because we have been nice and made the same suggestion more then once before,to andwhat
But she didn't ask for it this time, unless I'm missing something.
No, she didn't. You're right and it is unfair of me to feel irritated by her comments about the OP. I'm sorry for that andwhat .
I just went through and read again that epic thread where our disagreement stemmed. I provided her with information then as well. But again, my tone was an irritated one and not very helpful. I did treat mouse more helpfully here than I did andwhat in the past.
Again, I'm sorry for being bitchy to you, andwhat.
She has a history of refusing to listen to Jewish posters. That's why they (and I) are testy with her. That's my point. We have gone around on this with her multiple times in different threads.
So yes a poster asking a real question looking for a real answer gets a nicer response then someone who has been given multiple suggestions of how to learn more about this.
K. But FTR, while I don't engage in these topics because I know less than shit about them and therefore Homer-in-bush on out usually, I also was taking the tone as yelling AT the OP than ABOUT what she posted. Y'all might not care but maybe coming from somebody who isn't "willfully ignorant"....
I can see where that would happen. And we probably are jumping harder on her then we would most for pointing that out because of the history here. andwhat I apologize for being harsher then was appropriate.