Hold up. Why are you being nice to this poster, when you just jumped on another poster for "being willfully ignorant and asking us to teach you about something you could have looked up yourself." You telling me that she couldn't look up what Zion is? I'm just saying.
She could have and I told her to. I said start with Wikipedia. I also said roughly the same thing to andwhat the last time this topic came up.
Right and I went there. Looked at the sources to read books on the matter and then I was told those sources were biased. Then I reevaluate my level of caring. I thought the subject was interesting and realized how little I knew but the vitriol diminished my interest.
Well, she presented extremely anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish, biased material and she got told about it. We're angry at the articles presented and have said as much.
I'm pretty sure when people come on to this board with material that is very biased in some way, they get the heat strongly. It's not just on this subject.
And if we're going to talk about your experience the last time we had a talk about the middle east, you spent a lot of time being willfully ignorant and asking us to teach you about something you could have looked up yourself. It's not our, Jews on this board, job to teach anyone about Isreali-Palestinian geopolitical issues.
This same kind of reaction happens when white posters waltz into threads about racism and don't do their homework. You can't have it both ways.
Well other than the medium which I wouldn't rely on an objective opinion of anything, I don't think it is easy to tell what is considered biased on this subject. I am not familiar with the other two sources she posted. I took her post as this is what I have been hearing some people say and these articles are like what I have been hearing. Not that she agreed or disagreed with them. If this is a subject you know nothing about, you may not see the anti-Jewish language as easily as someone who is familiar with the topic. And I am not talking about relating it to apartheid, but some other subtle language that may not be obvious to outsiders.
I didn't spend a lot of time doing anything in the past. I asked a question based on the very little bit of information I had heard. I didn't want people to think I was just making stuff up off the top of my head and I was trying to show that there are clearly people out there who have the same wrong understanding that I did and that this information was out there and clearly people are believing it. It is not any Jewish person's job to teach anyone anything, but if you go looking for sources again it is hard to decipher what is credible and what isn't. Even when I tried to look up books on the subject I was told by posters that the authors were biased. Nothing that I read about the synopsis of the book or anything in their bios would have led me to see that. And then there were people with Palestinian heritage posting what they felt were credible sources but was in complete contradiction with what Jewish posters were posting.
At this point there are tons of non-biased article on the plight of black people in America. I don't think there are as many or easily decipherable sources on this conflict.
But you have already made your decision about me regarding this topic so I am sure nothing I posted will matter. I knew how this post was going to go from the OP as soon as I saw medium as one of the articles. I just don't personally think that was the OPs intent.
I agree that Jews can more easily pick up on anti-Semitic language than non-Jews. Which is why it's so helpful that rvan0905 took the time to pull excerpts from each article and respond to them. If you still don't understand why those excerpts are anti semetic, then ask for a further explanation. And if you do understand, then look for that language in other articles on the subject to help you gauge if it's non-biased.
She could have and I told her to. I said start with Wikipedia. I also said roughly the same thing to andwhat the last time this topic came up.
Right and I went there. Looked at the sources to read books on the matter and then I was told those sources were biased. Then I reevaluate my level of caring. I thought the subject was interesting and realized how little I knew but the vitriol diminished my interest.
It's a very touchy subject on both sides. It is a fascinating and insanely complex issue with justifiably strong feelings on both sides. That's why knowing the background is an important starting point. If Israel had existed in 1935 after the Zionist movement was successful millions of Jewish lives would have been saved, among them those of the Jews on the St. Louis, and possibly Dreyfus' granddaughter. That piece can't be ignored in understanding why this is such a difficult issue.
She has a history of refusing to listen to Jewish posters. That's why they (and I) are testy with her. That's my point. We have gone around on this with her multiple times in different threads.
So yes a poster asking a real question looking for a real answer gets a nicer response then someone who has been given multiple suggestions of how to learn more about this.
K. But FTR, while I don't engage in these topics because I know less than shit about them and therefore Homer-in-bush on out usually, I also was taking the tone as yelling AT the OP than ABOUT what she posted. Y'all might not care but maybe coming from somebody who isn't "willfully ignorant"....
I think andwhat is correct that it's hard to understand the issues and recognize biases. There's thousands of years of history. While some things scream bias (anti-Zionist and apartheid, for example), I don't know if it's fair to expect everyone to know that. It's a bit like when the boards discovered that "cotton-picking" was racist. Lots of posters knew that, but lots of others associated it with Yosemite Sam. Meanwhile the WOC are shaking their heads like how did you NOT know that?!? When OP, who I don't recognize, swoops in with an inflammatory question raised by prejudiced sources, it's going to raise some hackles. I'd like to see a follow up comment or two before I judge the OP, but the fact that she hasn't joined her own discussion does feel a bit trollish.
K. But FTR, while I don't engage in these topics because I know less than shit about them and therefore Homer-in-bush on out usually, I also was taking the tone as yelling AT the OP than ABOUT what she posted. Y'all might not care but maybe coming from somebody who isn't "willfully ignorant"....
I think andwhat is correct that it's hard to understand the issues and recognize biases. There's thousands of years of history. While some things scream bias (anti-Zionist and apartheid, for example), I don't know if it's fair to expect everyone to know that. It's a bit like when the boards discovered that "cotton-picking" was racist. Lots of posters knew that, but lots of others associated it with Yosemite Sam. Meanwhile the WOC are shaking their heads like how did you NOT know that?!? When OP, who I don't recognize, swoops in with an inflammatory question raised by prejudiced sources, it's going to raise some hackles. I'd like to see a follow up comment or two before I judge the OP, but the fact that she hasn't joined her own discussion does feel a bit trollish.
On her behalf, she is not a troll. She was likely quite busy at work and didn't have time to post a follow-up. She is on my local board and I do know her acquaintance in person. I'm sure we did make her feel uneasy though. She doesn't post very often around here and I know that we don't always roll out the welcome mat for newcomers.
I think andwhat is correct that it's hard to understand the issues and recognize biases. There's thousands of years of history. While some things scream bias (anti-Zionist and apartheid, for example), I don't know if it's fair to expect everyone to know that. It's a bit like when the boards discovered that "cotton-picking" was racist. Lots of posters knew that, but lots of others associated it with Yosemite Sam. Meanwhile the WOC are shaking their heads like how did you NOT know that?!? When OP, who I don't recognize, swoops in with an inflammatory question raised by prejudiced sources, it's going to raise some hackles. I'd like to see a follow up comment or two before I judge the OP, but the fact that she hasn't joined her own discussion does feel a bit trollish.
On her behalf, she is not a troll. She was likely quite busy at work and didn't have time to post a follow-up. She is on my local board and I do know her acquaintance in person. I'm sure we did make her feel uneasy though. She doesn't post very often around here and I know that we don't always roll out the welcome mat for newcomers.
I'm sure that's happened to all of us! In fact, I remember once I was fighting with SBP on this very topic and I had to board a plane and I spent the whole flight thinking "she's going to think I can't defend what I said and that I'm hiding!" In hindsight, I can't believe I let her give me such anxiety!
Sorry for the post and run, on solo kid duty today/tonight with a late afternoon dance performance for my DD that I ended up having to drag my 2 yr old twins to and now getting them settled for bed and then DD to bed. I'll be back. And I'm not a troll, I've posted a few times here, ML and MMM before, I mostly post the makeup board and lurk on CEP regularly. Eta: turns out this was my 3000th post
I don't think conversations about Israel and Palestine are ever without bias on this board.
I am the only-as far as I know- Palestinian poster. I'm hesitant to post in these threads because I have family members that would argue points being made.
I shouldn't post in here right now because I'm about to join a family event, so forgive my lack of responses tonight but the lack of awareness of what is happening in The Israeli controlled West Bank (Palestine) is something that I should comment on from another perspective.
I take offense to having my family members being called ignorant for thinking that the are living under circumstances similar to an apartheid. Especially when many international voices, including the United Nations have made the claim. They are treated like second class citizens. They are given ID cards by the Israeli government which controls where they work and where and when they can travel. They are turned away from crossing boarders for no valid reasons. They are not allowed to use the same roads as Israelis, they can not vote for people who make laws about them. The are unable to be with their children receiving medical care in parts of Israel. The list goes on: - Palestinian schools don't get the same funding for schools. Not even close. -access to water is restricted and the water quality is the great - unemployment of Palestinians is much higher than Israelis. As is the poverty rate. -they are not given building permits to build on what is legally their land. - refugees (like my grandparents in Jordan ) were not allowed back into Palestine after the war.
All because of their ethnicity.
That all said, I don't have any negative feelings towards someone who is forced to join the military and supports the halt of Hamas' destruction.
Wait magnolia's are racist? I just tried to Google this but found nothing. Did we talk about this here?
White people used to lynch black people in those trees specifically to cover the scent of decay. It was mentioned in an article about the anniversary of the Loving decision, and it is referenced in the song "Strange Fruit".SaveSave
I acknowledge that I'm more irritated than normal today, since the complete Beckery appears to be on the rise (again). But, I read through this thread a couple of times, as it was problematic at best.
I really hope all of this that capscapscaps was quick to catch on to is just a case of misunderstanding, and not a case of bitches trying it with andwhat . Please (rheotorically) tell me it was the former, and not the latter.
We had history. We've figured it out. She's trying to understand something complicated and nuanced. I was a bitch. I apologized. Done.
Post by pizzapizza on Jun 22, 2017 20:01:26 GMT -5
Those articles illustrate how damn effective antisemitism is today and how depressing it can be for a Jew to see biased "news" sources spout anti zionist bullshit. It is tiring and insulting and will probably never get any better.
I acknowledge that I'm more irritated than normal today, since the complete Beckery appears to be on the rise (again). But, I read through this thread a couple of times, as it was problematic at best.
I really hope all of this that capscapscaps was quick to catch on to is just a case of misunderstanding, and not a case of bitches trying it with andwhat . Please (rheotorically) tell me it was the former, and not the latter.
I believe it was a misunderstanding. andwhat has participated in these discussions before and has always been respectful, and I know that her perspective is valued by the Jewish ladies here. It's just a very sensitive topic (duh) and nuanced and think many of us get defensive.
I acknowledge that I'm more irritated than normal today, since the complete Beckery appears to be on the rise (again). But, I read through this thread a couple of times, as it was problematic at best.
I really hope all of this that capscapscaps was quick to catch on to is just a case of misunderstanding, and not a case of bitches trying it with andwhat. Please (rheotorically) tell me it was the former, and not the latter.
Absolutely a misunderstanding the history got in the way and it shouldn't have.
I don't think conversations about Israel and Palestine are ever without bias on this board.
I am the only-as far as I know- Palestinian poster. I'm hesitant to post in these threads because I have family members that would argue points being made.
I shouldn't post in here right now because I'm about to join a family event, so forgive my lack of responses tonight but the lack of awareness of what is happening in The Israeli controlled West Bank (Palestine) is something that I should comment on from another perspective.
I take offense to having my family members being called ignorant for thinking that the are living under circumstances similar to an apartheid. Especially when many international voices, including the United Nations have made the claim. They are treated like second class citizens. They are given ID cards by the Israeli government which controls where they work and where and when they can travel. They are turned away from crossing boarders for no valid reasons. They are not allowed to use the same roads as Israelis, they can not vote for people who make laws about them. The are unable to be with their children receiving medical care in parts of Israel. The list goes on: - Palestinian schools don't get the same funding for schools. Not even close. -access to water is restricted and the water quality is the great - unemployment of Palestinians is much higher than Israelis. As is the poverty rate. -they are not given building permits to build on what is legally their land. - refugees (like my grandparents in Jordan ) were not allowed back into Palestine after the war.
All because of their ethnicity.
That all said, I don't have any negative feelings towards someone who is forced to join the military and supports the halt of Hamas' destruction.
fryjack2, I appreciate you providing your families' perspective and I hope it is something you feel comfortable sharing.
Why is it not okay for the Jewish posters to be angry and upset when we see hateful and inflammatory language against us used repeatedly? I understood that it wasn't the OP's intention, but that is what those terms in those articles are. If you don't know anything about antisemitism, try the ADL. They have great resources. If after multiple conversations on apartheid and its meaning someone still rolls up here with an article calling Israel an apartheid state, what do I owe them? How may times have we discussed how little intent matters?
I (as well as other posters) have discussed avenues where we could have a civil dialogue - let's talk policy and process. What are the current realities obstructing a peace process? What role can/does the US play and what could we be doing better to advance peace? These are areas for conversation that validate the responsibility of Israel to the Palestinian people without attacking Jewish people or our right to exist and have a safe place in the world.
I keep thinking about the prior thread over whether Jews are POC. When it comes to this issue, clearly most people don't see this as such. Jews are the (white, wealthy) aggressors.
Also, can I admit that I hate the term "Becky" to describe white liberal hypocrisy? Like you couldn't pick a less Jewish name?
I'm pretty sure you can blame Sir Mix A Lot for Becky. I don't know if he has a position on zionism.
LOL, yes. Although Becky is a nickname for Rebecca, I don't think I know any Jewish Beckys. Actually, I would say that all the Jewish Rebeccas I know go by Rebecca or Rivka (The Hebrew version of Rebecca) and all the non-Jewish Rebeccas I know go by Becky or Becca. obviously my observations are just anecdotal.
I'm pretty sure you can blame Sir Mix A Lot for Becky. I don't know if he has a position on zionism.
LOL, yes. Although Becky is a nickname for Rebecca, I don't think I know any Jewish Beckys. Actually, I would say that all the Jewish Rebeccas I know go by Rebecca or Rivka (The Hebrew version of Rebecca) and all the non-Jewish Rebeccas I know go by Becky or Becca. obviously my observations are just anecdotal.
OP here. I've been spending the last 2.5 hrs reading various source from what I can find on the internet, including Wikipedia as AJL suggested (though I can't say I ever considered Wikipedia a truly credible source, at least in academics it's not) and I'm still reading so I'll come back later and reply to some post and likely ask more questions.
Keep in mind I have no skin in this game, I'm not Jewish or Israeli, nor am I Palestinian or Arab.
I treat Wikipedia as a gateway: easily accessible information on complex subjects. It's a good place to start and take notes. Once you've got some key words and know what to look for, you can do more focused searches on the Internet as a whole.
There is no compendium of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. No one-stop neutral source shop. One is just going to have to cobble it all together on their own.
Honestly, if you're an American, you definitely have skin in this conflict. (Another thing to research: the role of U.S. in the current Israeli-Palestinian situation. It's a huge role and it effects all of us.)
I'm over here examining my privilege and inherent bias because even though I know that Rebecca is a popular and meaningful Jewish name, all the Beckys I know are white and Mormon (and fit the stereotype). I asked DH and Becky is definitely a Jewish name to him. Even when we know better and strive to do better, this shit is complicated!
I'm pretty sure you can blame Sir Mix A Lot for Becky. I don't know if he has a position on zionism.
LOL, yes. Although Becky is a nickname for Rebecca, I don't think I know any Jewish Beckys. Actually, I would say that all the Jewish Rebeccas I know go by Rebecca or Rivka (The Hebrew version of Rebecca) and all the non-Jewish Rebeccas I know go by Becky or Becca. obviously my observations are just anecdotal.
I'm a Jewish Becky. But, I don't think it was an anti-semetic slight that Becky was picked. It's a popular white girl name, and that includes white Jewish girls. And I don't think being Jewish exempts anyone from their "Beckyness" as a white person (assuming they are white).
100% Rebecca is a Jewish name. Sure, there are non-Jews named Rebecca, but it's a Jewish name. So, going back to the other conversation, it's ironic it's considered to be a typically white name.
Fwiw, i know a ton of rebeccas (some go by Becky), only one is not Jewish and most people assume she is.
rvan0905 and pizzapizza There are at least 3 posts in this thread saying that anyone who mentions Israel and apartheid is antisemetic, that the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians is not like apartheid at all, and that anyone who says there are similarities is an ignorant fool who's words mean nothing. There are many posts saying that the media is biased against Israel and shouldn't be trusted. The media for sure frequently is, but they certainly don't portray Arabs or Palestinians in a good light either.
My family is currently living in an oppressed state imposed by Israel. They can name many ways in which their life is similar to an apartheid, as I've listed in my last post.
I am not ignorant nor am I antisemetic.
Feeling comfortable sharing my family's story and situation on this board is not easy when it's bias leans heavily one way.
Since we' ve moved on to talk about names, mine is a common 80 year old Jewish lady name. Add in my married name and where I live = a lot of assumption that I am Jewish.
I know many Rebeccas IRL. Most are Jewish, but the ones that aren't are a black woman and a white Becca. Oh! And one Rebecca who is from South America and converted when she married her wife, but was not born Jewish.
I never realized until this thread how popular the name is.
I want to get us back on track and talk about what fryjack2 has brought up. I think it's important and it has, at least for me, sent me on a search to find out what is really happening in Israel by way of trying to examine their policies and laws against Palestinians.
A report came out in March by the UN Economic and Social Commission on Western Asia called "Isreali Practices Toward the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid." It is not available on the UN website but I did find a PDF copy here. I'm curious as to why it was pulled off the UN's document website, but that's a sidebar. I'm going to read it this morning and if others have time, I'd like for others to read it too so maybe we can discuss it.
I have maintained in my position that I do not agree with many policies of the Israeli government that are directed at Palestinians living in Israel. I want to believe that a peaceful solution for all people involved is possible.
Many of us Jews on here are vehement about the protection of the establishment of Israel and that's fine. I do think it's important to hear about the minority experience and it would be very close minded and naive to think that the average Palestinian citizen isn't telling the truth when she or he talks about their experience.
I know this is touchy and fraught with emotion, but I'd like to work past that bit to actually have a conversation that discusses the ongoing situation.
I want to get us back on track and talk about what fryjack2 has brought up. I think it's important and it has, at least for me, sent me on a search to find out what is really happening in Israel by way of trying to examine their policies and laws against Palestinians.
A report came out in March by the UN Economic and Social Commission on Western Asia called "Isreali Practices Toward the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid." It is not available on the UN website but I did find a PDF copy here. I'm curious as to why it was pulled off the UN's document website, but that's a sidebar. I'm going to read it this morning and if others have time, I'd like for others to read it too so maybe we can discuss it.
I have maintained in my position that I do not agree with many policies of the Israeli government that are directed at Palestinians living in Israel. I want to believe that a peaceful solution for all people involved is possible.
Many of us Jews on here are vehement about the protection of the establishment of Israel and that's fine. I do think it's important to hear about the minority experience and it would be very close minded and naive to think that the average Palestinian citizen isn't telling the truth when she or he talks about their experience.
I know this is touchy and fraught with emotion, but I'd like to work past that bit to actually have a conversation that discusses the ongoing situation.
I'm totally here with you on this. In the community I grew up in, everything the Palestinians said was dismissed as "lies" and I was told they were taught math with textbooks that said things like "there are 10 Jews, but you kill 6 of them, how many are left," which I now assume is a giant steaming pile of bullshit. But even as someone who used to be yelled at for being an "Arab lover" because of my more left leaning views (and by left leaning, I mean the fact that I believe that all human beings should be treated as such), I rarely actually hear about what Palestinians experience in their day to day life. I listened to a BBC documentary recently about the wall (don't even get me started on the wall - and I was in a suicide bombing in Jerusalem as a child, and the whole "but it keeps us so much safer!" argument still pisses me off) and there was a Palestinian man who had to travel through checkpoints to go to HIS OWN olive groves that were now on settlements and on the other side of the wall. And I was fucking enraged. How dare we wall people in when in the not-so-distant past the very same tactic was used against us.
Anyway, I would love to have a more open discussion about these issues