I agree. And it is definitely not something that is taught in detail in my experience.
This is not a defense of anyone's feelings, but for my life, hell even most of my parents life, Israel has been in the position of power. And while that power is tenuous and hasn't been that long, I think for many Americans they cannot look beyond what has happened during their lifetime. And the US has always been a defender of Israel (or seen that way). Many younger Americans, especially those who see themselves as activists, question America and its allies, so I think it makes them skeptical of Israel as well. And then they look at how America has treated minorities and they can see some parallels, rightly or wrongly. So Israel looks like the agressor over a weaker, brown minority. If we had a better teaching of history, it would allow for Americans in general to have a better understanding of why Israelis have felt they need to defend themselves and how they haven't always been the ones on top. I mean I was a very good student and went to what was considered a good school and I was not taught this history (at least not in a way that was memorable). Again this is not a defense of anything, but I can see how people taught in this education system could have a one-sided view of the conflict.
If you have a big pile of time and are interested, Simon Schama's History of the Jews is PHENOMENAL (and if anyone doesnt have PBS Passport then either 1. donate to PBS and get it, it's public television! or 2. if that's not your cause, that's cool, I'm happy to share my login for anyone who is interested in this)
It's been the specific acts to reduce births of this population that qualifies as genocide. I thought overall attitude was relevant towards intent; which is also required.
Other than a small scale program that administered Depo Provera injections without consent, how else has the Israel attempted to mitigate birth rates among Ethiopian Jews?
Did you read Newsweek article I posted about police brutality? In 2013, Israel stopped all Ethiopian right of return. In 2016, they finally relented and acknowledged there were 9k more were eligible, although the program has yet to continue. This split up families, certainly hurting birth rate. They are held to different standards in proving their Jewishness. This is a concerted effort to limit the population. The BBC reports a 50% drop in the birth rate among Ethiopian immigrant women in the decade previous to being reported in 2013. A 50% drop!! This was not just a little program and investigation is needed. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21621388
Palestinian refugees in Jordan were granted citizenship.
Some of those were revoked and some halted because Jordan was afraid that Israel wouldn't allow them back into Palestine if they were citizens elsewhere.
It was not a malicious act. It was looking out for Palestinians right of return.
I also have to say that I don't have research articles that I can verify are unbiased or a good read to post.
My sources are family members living there and articles read throughout the years that I don't know are credible anymore. I can't keep straight what news sources are trustworthy.
I did reach out to my brother and dad for more info.
My brother Mentioned within our discussion to research pro-Palestinian college groups and read about what is happening to them. If anyone has come across a credible source for that, l'd appreciate a link.
He is more involved and educated than I am about the Mid East conflict. From what he has seen, even Jews that are actively trying to improve Palestinian life are being labeled anti-Semitic
I also have to say that I don't have research articles that I can verify are unbiased or a good read to post.
My sources are family members living there and articles read throughout the years that I don't know are credible anymore. I can't keep straight what news sources are trustworthy.
I did reach out to my brother and dad for more info.
My brother Mentioned within our discussion to research pro-Palestinian college groups and read about what is happening to them. If anyone has come across a credible source for that, l'd appreciate a link.
He is more involved and educated than I am about the Mid East conflict. From what he has seen, even Jews that are actively trying to improve Palestinian life are being labeled anti-Semitic
darn it - I was just about to tag you asking if you had any recs for Palestinian authors. Most of what I'm finding in my initial searches on books about the conflict are either american or isreali authors.
Ok - I've got more probably overly broad/simplistic questions.
The Palestinian people are suffering. That is a given. Shit is bad there. There are a lot of factors as to why they are doing it, but it is true that the government of the Israel is the power in question making shit bad for them. Right? So what happens next? I mean...how do "we" get them knock it the fuck off? I support Israel's right to exist, and I recognize the threats to that right from other nations - so I support our country being their unequivocal ally. But...I mean, at what point does the US have an obligation to get their cousin, so to speak? We protect them, we stand behind them as a powerful ally to keep them safe - but is Netanyahu just such a dickcheese that there's nothing we can do to lean on them to at least stop with MORE settlements? Is it that there hasn't been the political will to do so on our end, or is it just a lot more complicated than that? or did we try and it didn't work? I know Obama was more...guarded in his support than previous and current administrations. Is that what he was trying to do and it just didn't work? Because it kind of does feel like at least out in the world - politically - you can't criticize the Israeli government without being accused of being antisemitic, when obviously it's more complex than that.
bamboo00 - Do you consider the ICC a reputable and credible source?
I am not sure what you are asking. The link is a credible description of what the court can do. The court is not without bias, nothing is. The UN has shown bias in favor of and against Israel. Major players on both sides have influenced resolutions. The court has shown bias against African nations because it has never been able to bring charges against non black offenders. It's uncertain how that racism would effect an investigation on behalf of Palestinians. Jordan is the only Arab state to ratify so pretending that Israel's Arab enemies would use this court is not founded. I would rather see intervention by the UN or ICC because it is a diplomatic interest for peace, instead of unilateral involvements that are incredibly biased. But Israel has not obeyed the UN regarding occupation so somewhere, somehow the levy has to break. www.bbc.com/news/world-11809908
He is more involved and educated than I am about the Mid East conflict. From what he has seen, even Jews that are actively trying to improve Palestinian life are being labeled anti-Semitic
All of my practicing Jewish friends that are involved in BDS and spend decent chunks of the year traveling from the US to Palestine to help Palestinians regularly refer to what's going on as apartheid. They absolutely would have been called anti-Semitic even in here based on the way these threads have gone.
wawa. Hamas hasn't been that awesome to its own people.
The come get your cousin phrase is making me wince. Obama tried a bit to get Israel to adhere to treaties and promises. Remember the UN vote we abstained in during December?
Ok - I've got more probably overly broad/simplistic questions.
The Palestinian people are suffering. That is a given. Shit is bad there. There are a lot of factors as to why they are doing it, but it is true that the government of the Israel is the power in question making shit bad for them. Right? So what happens next? I mean...how do "we" get them knock it the fuck off? I support Israel's right to exist, and I recognize the threats to that right from other nations - so I support our country being their unequivocal ally. But...I mean, at what point does the US have an obligation to get their cousin, so to speak? We protect them, we stand behind them as a powerful ally to keep them safe - but is Netanyahu just such a dickcheese that there's nothing we can do to lean on them to at least stop with MORE settlements? Is it that there hasn't been the political will to do so on our end, or is it just a lot more complicated than that? or did we try and it didn't work? I know Obama was more...guarded in his support than previous and current administrations. Is that what he was trying to do and it just didn't work? Because it kind of does feel like at least out in the world - politically - you can't criticize the Israeli government without being accused of being antisemitic, when obviously it's more complex than that.
I want to answer your questions but I have to ask if you have read any of the links I have posted. Are you interested in unilateral US intervention? Do you think that would be less biased than the UN?
bamboo00 - Do you consider the ICC a reputable and credible source?
I am not sure what you are asking. The link is a credible description of what the court can do. The court is not without bias, nothing is. The UN has shown bias in favor of and against Israel. Major players on both sides have influenced resolutions. The court has shown bias against African nations because it has never been able to bring charges against non black offenders. It's uncertain how that racism would effect an investigation on behalf of Palestinians. Jordan is the only Arab state to ratify so pretending that Israel's Arab enemies would use this court is not founded. I would rather see intervention by the UN or ICC because it is a diplomatic interest for peace, instead of unilateral involvements that are incredibly biased. But Israel has not obeyed the UN regarding occupation so somewhere, somehow the levy has to break.
I'm asking because the ICC has received a lot of criticism (not just from the US), including allegations of targeting African countries inappropriately. You seem to be tossing around the ICC as if it's an upstanding institution devoted to peace in this thread, but in actuality it also has a history of lots of criticism and conflict, including allegations of blatant racism and neo-colonialism.
Personally, I don't automatically consider the ICC either reputable or credible as a source. I recognize that others feel differently, and so I find that it's an important question to ask.
wawa . Hamas hasn't been that awesome to its own people.
The come get your cousin phrase is making me wince. Obama tried a bit to get Israel to adhere to treaties and promises. Remember the UN vote we abstained in during December?
Yes, the UN vote is what I referring to primarily. So - Obama tried. It didn't really result in anything did it? Was it just not enough, or were there ramifications from that vote that I don't know about?
sorry if the cousin line was too flip - I just mean that as their close ally the U.S. shouldn't be offering total absolution, that we have a responsibility as their "friend" to try to stop bad actions and may be in the best position to do so in such a way that the country itself remains safe. At least - seems that way to me. But I don't know what that looks like or if I'm totally off-base.
Now as for Hamas causing some of the pain to their own people, that's a good (depressing) reminder.
I've never done a deep dive into this topic because it seemed so overwhelming, but these threads and pixy's appropriate shaming of "those who didn't know enough to speak up" have given me a kick in the pants to try to learn more - which usually involves me asking stupid questions and crossing my fingers I'm not sticking my foot in my mouth. I'm really trying to understand and be sensitive to both sides, so (not that you need the permission) feel free to smack me if I say something dumb.
Re. books by Palestinian authors, a few years ago I read I Shall Not Hate: A Gaza Doctor's Journey on the Road to Peace and Human Dignity by Izzeldin Abuelaish. To my admittedly non-expert self, I thought it did a good job humanizing some of the issues without being inflammatory. If there is a bias that I missed, please forgive me.
The description on Amazon is
By turns inspiring and heart-breaking, hopeful and horrifying, I Shall Not Hate is Izzeldin Abuelaish's account of an extraordinary life. A Harvard-trained Palestinian doctor who was born and raised in the Jabalia refugee camp in the Gaza Strip and "who has devoted his life to medicine and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians" (New York Times), Abuelaish has been crossing the lines in the sand that divide Israelis and Palestinians for most of his life - as a physician who treats patients on both sides of the line, as a humanitarian who sees the need for improved health and education for women as the way forward in the Middle East. And, most recently, as the father whose daughters were killed by Israeli soldiers on January 16, 2009, during Israel's incursion into the Gaza Strip. His response to this tragedy made news and won him humanitarian awards around the world. Instead of seeking revenge or sinking into hatred, Abuelaish called for the people in the region to start talking to each other. His deepest hope is that his daughters will be "the last sacrifice on the road to peace between Palestinians and Israelis."
I am not sure what you are asking. The link is a credible description of what the court can do. The court is not without bias, nothing is. The UN has shown bias in favor of and against Israel. Major players on both sides have influenced resolutions. The court has shown bias against African nations because it has never been able to bring charges against non black offenders. It's uncertain how that racism would effect an investigation on behalf of Palestinians. Jordan is the only Arab state to ratify so pretending that Israel's Arab enemies would use this court is not founded. I would rather see intervention by the UN or ICC because it is a diplomatic interest for peace, instead of unilateral involvements that are incredibly biased. But Israel has not obeyed the UN regarding occupation so somewhere, somehow the levy has to break.
I'm asking because the ICC has received a lot of criticism (not just from the US), including allegations of targeting African countries inappropriately. You seem to be tossing around the ICC as if it's an upstanding institution devoted to peace in this thread, but in actuality it also has a history of lots of criticism and conflict, including allegations of blatant racism and neo-colonialism.
Personally, I don't automatically consider the ICC either reputable or credible as a source. I recognize that others feel differently, and so I find that it's an important question to ask.
I never claimed it was without bias but they have not demonstrated bias against Israel. In all likelihood, the bias would be in favor of Israel since they really bent to US favor. I bring up the ICC because that is the course of action the Palestinians have pursued. It is the only international court of it's kind, considering these crimes. Palestinians don't have many options and the occupation is going on half a century. Israel will not obey the UN. So they can hope that Israel will cease these crimes all on their own accord, they can hope that the US will encourage Israel to listen but there's no hope of that happening with this administration, they can voice the concerns to the international community and hope for intervention, or they can hope for Arab state intervention, which would not bring peace. A two state solution is what most people hoping for peace are advocating for but what other vehicles are there to get there? This is why trying to silence requests for investigations contributes to the violence against Palestinians. Israel does not want investigation or change from the action taken and if they can deny and silence others, business can continue as usual. Ratifying was Palestine's hope so weighing ICC charges are part of listening to the Palestinian perspective, which is often silenced. BDS another strategy to compel Israel to obey international law and encouraging other bodies to be cognizant of 1967 borders was part of last year's UN resolution.
Also, I will ask that non-Jewish posters stop trying to correct Jewish ones on what is anti-semitic. That includes saying things like "this is what Jewish people I know would say and they could be called anti-semitic here!". Those people are not here and are not being called anti-semitic. Stop trying to delegitimize points that the active Jewish posters like myself are bringing up in these threads.
Right. Who is calling these people anti-Semitic anyway? Other Jews? I've heard Jews describe their fellow Jews as "self-hating" before (and I do NOT like that term and hesitate to mention it), but never anti-Semitic. Can a Jew even be anti-Semitic?
I think some of this is related to the privilege discussion that invariably comes up as a sidebar to these discussions. As Jews become more and more assimilated, and the last Holocaust survivors pass away, these are conversations we have amongst ourselves, and are not intended to be used by outsiders to be thrown back in our faces.
Millennial Jews especially, because we tend to congregate in "blue" areas, may feel more connection to the Amnesty Internationals of our world than the Zionist Organization of America. And as we sit in our comfortable, safe homes in New York and California and New Jersey and Florida, what is our responsibility as Jews, as Americans, as white people (when applicable), as brown people (when applicable), as liberals and as social justice-minded human beings?
I live in the ultra-liberal Bay Area and these are definitely discussions that come up in temple, but I wouldn't call any of my fellow parishioners anti-Semitic just because they're on the far left of this issue. Even Israelis are all over the map on this issue and they live it everyday.
Yes, the UN vote is what I referring to primarily. So - Obama tried. It didn't really result in anything did it? Was it just not enough, or were there ramifications from that vote that I don't know about?
sorry if the cousin line was too flip - I just mean that as their close ally the U.S. shouldn't be offering total absolution, that we have a responsibility as their "friend" to try to stop bad actions and may be in the best position to do so in such a way that the country itself remains safe. At least - seems that way to me. But I don't know what that looks like or if I'm totally off-base.
Now as for Hamas causing some of the pain to their own people, that's a good (depressing) reminder.
I've never done a deep dive into this topic because it seemed so overwhelming, but these threads and pixy's appropriate shaming of "those who didn't know enough to speak up" have given me a kick in the pants to try to learn more - which usually involves me asking stupid questions and crossing my fingers I'm not sticking my foot in my mouth. I'm really trying to understand and be sensitive to both sides, so (not that you need the permission) feel free to smack me if I say something dumb.
Do you mean the UN vote that said that Israel had no right to the Western Wall because Israel had no historical ties to it? There are many different levels of settlements, and this particular UN vote called land that has been annexed into Israel proper "settlements". Israel will never agree to give up control of the Western Wall; it is the holiest site in Judaism. The Golan is not going back to Syria or to the Palestinian people; Israel has fully annexed the land.
When the US didn't veto the "new" UN definition of what is considered a settlement and what is considered Israel proper, it was a huge slap in the face to Israel.
That....I guess is the vote I mean? Can I admit that I was paying only the sketchiest amount of attention to international politics between November and like...two weeks ago? I never got into the details of that development - I just remember headlines and blurbs about the US abstaining from a vote about Israel's settlements and it being a big fat deal. But I never heard anything after that, and nothing seemed to change based on that (lack of) vote. But again...I might have (probably did) missed something which is why I was asking about the result.
So thanks for explaining what the vote actually covered. You shouldn't have to lay this all out in such detail, but I really appreciate that you are.
As for it being a slap in the face to Israel - I mean, that's kind of what I'm asking. Should Israel be slapped in the face a bit? Like, gently. By a friend rather than an enemy. If they SHOULD stop with advancing the settlements further, and probably step them back, then shouldn't there be some way for an ally to encourage that without endangering them? Maybe this vote wasn't the way - sounds like no - and I'm probably oversimplifying, but it's hard to identify what actions the US or the UN or anybody could take to put pressure on Israel (and Hamas for that matter) that isnt putting them in danger based on what you've outlined here. But there has to be something? How do we get back to the conditions @mx and others have mentioned - when people could move across the borders, when they'd attend each other's weddings and so forth. (I swear I don't expect a full on history lesson of the last 20 years - I have like 4 new books on my kindle waiting for me, but that requires patience, which I lack. So I'll keep asking questions as long as you keep answering them...)
rjamz , Is he Jewish? I started listening to him on a podcast first and he's making jokes. Just making sure it's OK to laugh!!
Are you enjoying it? I'm watching/listing to it again (for the 3rd time, I think) and I always love it.
I listened to one podcast already and loved him. He seems to be very objective, knowledgeable and fair. I don't think I can be when talking about my own ethnic group. I listened to a previous podcast regarding Jewish history and didn't realize ghettos had been around FOREVER. Did you ever see the Israel episode of Breaking Borders?
The PBS show I will start this evening. Imma need a drink tho!
Are you enjoying it? I'm watching/listing to it again (for the 3rd time, I think) and I always love it.
I listened to one podcast already and loved him. He seems to be very objective, knowledgeable and fair. I don't think I can be when talking about my own ethnic group. I listened to a previous podcast regarding Jewish history and didn't realize ghettos had been around FOREVER. Did you ever see the Israel episode of Breaking Borders?
The PBS show I will start this evening. Imma need a drink tho!
I listened to one podcast already and loved him. He seems to be very objective, knowledgeable and fair. I don't think I can be when talking about my own ethnic group. I listened to a previous podcast regarding Jewish history and didn't realize ghettos had been around FOREVER. Did you ever see the Israel episode of Breaking Borders?
The PBS show I will start this evening. Imma need a drink tho!
Israeli/all Middle Eastern Food is my favorite Behold my stack of Middle Eastern cookbooks! And there are so many more I want that I need to sneak in and hide from my husband until I produce some fabulous dish from them.
Also, I will ask that non-Jewish posters stop trying to correct Jewish ones on what is anti-semitic. That includes saying things like "this is what Jewish people I know would say and they could be called anti-semitic here!". Those people are not here and are not being called anti-semitic. Stop trying to delegitimize points that the active Jewish posters like myself are bringing up in these threads.
I hope what I wrote earlier was not seen as delegitimizing posts. I was trying to illustrate the point already being made that there isn't cohesiveness within either group. Not all Jews agree with Israel's actions and not all Palestinians agree with Hamas.
My brother was sharing with me what some Jewish people he knows have been called (anti-Semitic and anti Israel) because they are a part of proPalestine organizations.
I will say though, about the plight of Jewish refugees of the Arab world, that while it was horrific for the people who experienced it, I don't think it is fair to compare it to the plight of the Palestinians. Those Jewish refugees became citizens of the countries they fled too. That did not happen for a significant portion of Palestinian refugees. Between 1948 and 1967 there was no Palestine at all, just Jordan and Israel. I am not familiar with the cultural/ethnic differences between the Jordanians and the Palestinians, but I understand they are two different peoples. So Palestinians in Jordan were not matriculated into Jordanian citizenship, and were true refugees with no place to go and no where to go back to.
The surrounding Arab countries refused to take in the Palestinians; in part because of varying cultural issues, but also so they could be used as a pawn against Israel, which is exactly what happened.
I haven't read the whole thread so disregard if this gets answered, but is part of this that Palestinians didn't want to become citizens of another land because they thought they'd lose their right to return?
It's such a difficult situation. I live in a country where memories of the Holocaust are everywhere, and I've read book after book about Nazis and Jewish citizens and so many horrific details I wish I could forget, so God knows I get needing a homeland. I can't imagine hearing those stories directly from a parent or grandparent. And I hear stories from Palestinians who talk about how it hurts to be able to literally see the land that they actually personally owned and grew up on, but can't go on it, and there is someone else living there. That sounds really painful.
I read the book Paris 1919: Six months that changed the world and the chapter on Israel and Palestine just broke my heart. To promise that land to both groups of people and be so manipulative and flippant with people's homeland is appalling. It was handled so profoundly badly by Britain and France from the start, and having colonial powers deciding how other people's lives are going to go just never goes well.
The terrorism has got to stop. I grew up always hearing about bombs on buses. I lived in a town with a huge Jewish population and was always worried about friends who were traveling in Israel. The settlements have also got to stop. Like yesterday stop. And I read somewhere that the illegal settlements are just "illegal" in quotes. Like every now and then the gov't will say you can't do that, but on the back end still have them hooked up to the water supply and tacitly support them. It was on Al Jazeera America - don't know about how people feel about them as a reputable source.