There were a few things I read in the monster thread that I wanted to respond to, but since I am on my phone, I didn't want to try to quote and C&P.
Someone mentioned that arguing/discussing/trying to present another point of view doesn't work. I can tell you firsthand this is wrong. I volunteered in McCain's election run in 2008. I've voted Republican in every election since I turned 18. However, since hanging out regularly on TN/GBCN, I have seen personal stories, lurked on CEP and read facts about things I thought were true and werenmt, and read the debates on this board and others that have changed my mind. The fact that I was opposed to gay marriage now repulses me.
The Republican party and its members in government has embarrassed me. The same group that's all "No gay marriage! Traditional hererosexual marriage is the only way to go!" is the same group with scandals, infidelity, and divorce after divorce. Coupled with the fact that I finally realized that I have no right to deny someone else their happiness (again, thanks to TN/GBCN and so many posters who this issue affects personally), I am now staunchly for gay marriage.
Another point brought up was that those who consider themselves fiscally comservative usually are not, and are for dumping money in wars and defense. I still identify with being fiscally responsible, but I am for using the money the US does have for social programs before anything else.
The only thing I still have trouble with is the abortion debate. I am absolutely for choice when there's rape, incest, danger to the mother, or if the pregnancy isn't viable. I have trouble though with "the rest of it", for lack of a better term. It has nothing to do with religion; I've known multiple women in my life who use abortion as a means of birth control. It was no big deal to go have abortion after abortion because of irresponsibility. There are those who've argued that it's their choice. I have trouble with this. I don't find this to be OK. I think this is morally wrong and a huge issue in irresponsibility and carelessness. While I will still vote pro-choice, I would hope staunch pro-choice advocates could see why I still take issue with this, being I have this kind of life experience with those around me. I know it's not my choice or problem, but this is an area where my feelings are conflicted.
So, very, very long story short, debates and discussions can change someone's mind.
Re: abortion, why the exception for rape, etc? This argument has always bothered me. It comes across not that you're against ending the life of a fetus, but that women should be punished for the unintended consequence of sex. Why is the rape baby's life less sacred?
Don't get me wrong; I'm glad you're pro-choice. I just think you may come to a less conflicted feeling if you think this through. What about abortion, specifically, bothers you? The killing, or the woman who was irresponsible?
Biology is grossly unfair to women. We are saddled with all the consequences when sex goes wrong.
I have the problem when someone uses it as a form of birth control. Things go wrong, birth control fails, I get that, and if that person chooses abortion, I am fine with that.
I have a hard time separating this from those in my life who choose to use it as birth control. I don't agree with that, and don't think it should be used as such. I know that choosing a stance should be based on someone's rights and not on opinions or feelings, but this is hard for me seeing people over the years use it as a way to avoid being responsible and at least attempt to practice safe sex. That's something that's very hard for me to separate.
I would say that sounds like a good reason to try to give people incentives to make a better choice.
No idea why someone would choose multiple abortions over BC--it's way expensive if nothing else. Abortions are at least $500 a piece, no? There must be some reason some people do it. Though I am sure it is not the majority.
What must have gone wrong in a woman's life that she is not able to take responsibility for herself or her fertility....and has numerous abortions? I think more empathy and less judgement is a good way to start thinking about these issues.
And teenagers are just stupid. They do not think about consequences or of long-term shit. Should we burden them and their potential children because they are idiots?
I do want to point out that this does not change my pro-choice views. I am simply stating a reason (other than religion) why it makes it a bigger conflict for me. I think it's probably unusual for someone to know as many people as I have that have used it as a form of birth control. It makes it a little harder to keep my personal experiences out of the equation when I've seen it used in place of safe sex. It was viewed as something to bail them out of being responsible, for lack of a better term. It's still their choice to utilize it, and I won't vote against that right. I just have trouble understanding the reasoning behind it.
I am just baffled that you know people who use it as birth control......
Sent from my SPH-D700 using proboards
5 in total. Three of them were from high school, and the other two I met in my early 20s.
I'm curious what you mean by using abortion as birth control. When I hear that expression, I think "people who have had more than one abortion because they refuse to use a condom." I just find it hard to believe you know five people who have had multiple abortions.
If these people have only had one abortion, I think it's hard to say that they used "abortion as birth control" unless they explicitly told you that. So can you clarify what you mean?
Anyway, I appreciate your story and am glad CEP had an impact on someone.
I am just baffled that you know people who use it as birth control......
Sent from my SPH-D700 using proboards
My former coworker did this. She was quite strange. She wasn't a practicing Catholic but her mom (who lived across the country from her) was so she didn't want to use any birth control. Her live in boyfriend/daughters father seemingly refused to wear a condom. She told me that she had 4 abortions in a short time. She just kept getting pregnant but didn't want a baby and using birth control was out of the question. She also had an appt to get her tubes tied and walked out during pre-op stuff.
I do want to point out that this does not change my pro-choice views. I am simply stating a reason (other than religion) why it makes it a bigger conflict for me. I think it's probably unusual for someone to know as many people as I have that have used it as a form of birth control. It makes it a little harder to keep my personal experiences out of the equation when I've seen it used in place of safe sex. It was viewed as something to bail them out of being responsible, for lack of a better term. It's still their choice to utilize it, and I won't vote against that right. I just have trouble understanding the reasoning behind it.
You are actually a perfect example of someone who IMO is doing it right. You have big personal problems with abortion, but you aren't in favor of denying that right to everyone just because a few people are abusing it. I wish more people gave this issue as much mature, rational thought as you have.
I am just baffled that you know people who use it as birth control......
Sent from my SPH-D700 using proboards
My former coworker did this. She was quite strange. She wasn't a practicing Catholic but her mom (who lived across the country from her) was so she didn't want to use any birth control. Her live in boyfriend/daughters father seemingly refused to wear a condom. She told me that she had 4 abortions in a short time. She just kept getting pregnant but didn't want a baby and using birth control was out of the question. She also had an appt to get her tubes tied and walked out during pre-op stuff.
So, using birth control was against her faith, but getting multiple abortions wasn't? ^o) She sounds like a real thinker.
My former coworker did this. She was quite strange. She wasn't a practicing Catholic but her mom (who lived across the country from her) was so she didn't want to use any birth control. Her live in boyfriend/daughters father seemingly refused to wear a condom. She told me that she had 4 abortions in a short time. She just kept getting pregnant but didn't want a baby and using birth control was out of the question. She also had an appt to get her tubes tied and walked out during pre-op stuff.
So, using birth control was against her faith, but getting multiple abortions wasn't? She sounds like a real thinker.
All the more reason for abortion to be legal. This woman does not need more kids
I do want to point out that this does not change my pro-choice views. I am simply stating a reason (other than religion) why it makes it a bigger conflict for me. I think it's probably unusual for someone to know as many people as I have that have used it as a form of birth control. It makes it a little harder to keep my personal experiences out of the equation when I've seen it used in place of safe sex. It was viewed as something to bail them out of being responsible, for lack of a better term. It's still their choice to utilize it, and I won't vote against that right. I just have trouble understanding the reasoning behind it.
You are actually a perfect example of someone who IMO is doing it right. You have big personal problems with abortion, but you aren't in favor of denying that right to everyone just because a few people are abusing it. I wish more people gave this issue as much mature, rational thought as you have.
5 in total. Three of them were from high school, and the other two I met in my early 20s.
I'm curious what you mean by using abortion as birth control. When I hear that expression, I think "people who have had more than one abortion because they refuse to use a condom." I just find it hard to believe you know five people who have had multiple abortions.
If these people have only had one abortion, I think it's hard to say that they used "abortion as birth control" unless they explicitly told you that. So can you clarify what you mean?
Anyway, I appreciate your story and am glad CEP had an impact on someone.
I understand where she's coming from...and identify with some of the points the open makes. I know of at least 2 people that have had more than one abortion. I know, because I was their driver. Both of these people were young and stupid. In both cases, the fathers didn't know about the abortions.
I'd say that I'm still pro choice, but less than I was 15 years ago, because I do have some internal struggles with the moral and bioethical side of things. But then, I'm not against flushing extra fertilized eggs down the toilet after IVF... I just don't know where that line is. I don't regret playing a part in the friends' abortions way back when... but I've definitely thought a lot more about the topic, and my viewpoint has shifted over time.
I find it very doubtful that even the 5 people in your life intend to use abortion as birth control. That's stupid - it is expensive, riskier for health (medical procedure is higher risk than taking a pill in general), stigma, etc. I'm surprised you even know about this. I think I only know of a couple of people IRL who have had an abortion and admitted to it.
I will say this - I am extremely fortunate that I never got pregnant in my early 20's. I was pretty irresponsible, mostly related to drinking and self esteem issues. I was not consistently on BC because I wasn't dating anyone and always intended to change my bad habit of going out, getting drunk, and hooking up (sometimes with random person, usually with someone I'd hooked up with in the past). I took Plan B on 2 separate occasions and probably got lucky a few others. It was stupid, but it wasn't exactly a "choice" to put myself at risk if that makes any sense - it was just something that happened because I got carried away and my good intentions didn't come through. ETA: I suppose you could call that a choice, I just mean I never thought to myself "I'm going to go out and have sex and if I get pregnant I'll just get an abortion!". That was never a part of the thought process until it was too late and I'm damn lucky it never resulted in pregnancy.
From that perspective, I can see how someone more fertile or less lucky than myself could end up pregnant multiple times and need multiple abortions, even if she NEVER intended to be in that situation. Maybe if I had ended up getting pregnant I would have learned my lesson - maybe not.
Anyway, glad you came around about the other stuff
My parents are very conservative so I initially took more conservative views. This state is really conservative too. MM opened my mind to more things. I looked up a couple weeks ago how to change my voter registration since I don't associate with the republican party anymore. I can't do it until April.
I do want to point out that this does not change my pro-choice views. I am simply stating a reason (other than religion) why it makes it a bigger conflict for me. I think it's probably unusual for someone to know as many people as I have that have used it as a form of birth control. It makes it a little harder to keep my personal experiences out of the equation when I've seen it used in place of safe sex. It was viewed as something to bail them out of being responsible, for lack of a better term. It's still their choice to utilize it, and I won't vote against that right. I just have trouble understanding the reasoning behind it.
You are actually a perfect example of someone who IMO is doing it right. You have big personal problems with abortion, but you aren't in favor of denying that right to everyone just because a few people are abusing it. I wish more people gave this issue as much mature, rational thought as you have.
5 in total. Three of them were from high school, and the other two I met in my early 20s.
I'm curious what you mean by using abortion as birth control. When I hear that expression, I think "people who have had more than one abortion because they refuse to use a condom." I just find it hard to believe you know five people who have had multiple abortions.
If these people have only had one abortion, I think it's hard to say that they used "abortion as birth control" unless they explicitly told you that. So can you clarify what you mean?
Anyway, I appreciate your story and am glad CEP had an impact on someone.
I was good friends with the three girls from high school. Because I was one of the few in that group of friends with a driver's license, I was the one to take them to the free clinic closest to us. One had three, the others had two. All three were very flippant about it and one even claimed it was easier than remembering to take pills. I wish I was kidding.
The two girls I met in my 20s had both had two. The comments and stories they'd shared were fairly personal and I'd rather not repeat them, since you never know who's reading. But both had to do with the fact that sleeping around and getting abortions was easier than practicing safe sex.
So again, while this doesn't change my voting pro-choice, hopefully you can see why it gives me some personal struggles when I think about it. I know this reason is a minute percentage of women who choose abortion; but it's hard not to let it nag in the back of my head. It impacted me on a pretty deep level.
My former coworker did this. She was quite strange. She wasn't a practicing Catholic but her mom (who lived across the country from her) was so she didn't want to use any birth control. Her live in boyfriend/daughters father seemingly refused to wear a condom. She told me that she had 4 abortions in a short time. She just kept getting pregnant but didn't want a baby and using birth control was out of the question. She also had an appt to get her tubes tied and walked out during pre-op stuff.
So, using birth control was against her faith, but getting multiple abortions wasn't? She sounds like a real thinker.
Right. I was baffled at her reasoning but it seemed to make perfect sense to her.
I find it very doubtful that even the 5 people in your life intend to use abortion as birth control. That's stupid - it is expensive, riskier for health (medical procedure is higher risk than taking a pill in general), stigma, etc. I'm surprised you even know about this. I think I only know of a couple of people IRL who have had an abortion and admitted to it.
Anyway, glad you came around about the other stuff
The only thing I can tell you is that if you knew the group of friends I was hanging around with, you might understand. I had very low self esteem then, and pretty much latched on to the group of people that I did. It didn't happen to be the brightest in the bunch.
The two girls I met later on in my 20s weren't as close of friends, but there was an evening that the topic came up and they each shared their stories. I believe this was after a pan of Jello shots were consumed. I agree, it's normally not something that's discussed openly.
When I was in Catholic HS I knew a few people that used abortion as BC and had 3-5 abortions over the course of HS. I always found that odd since it was a Catholic HS. But I always assumed, rightly, that they were a minority and would hopefully grow out of that behavior. For lack of a better phrase.
Me too. We didn't have a single out-of-wedlock baby in 4 years (or even anyone who disappeared under "mysterious" circumstances), but I do know of at least one dude in my class who paid for 4 abortions and multiple girls who had one or two. It was bizarre.
I looked up a couple weeks ago how to change my voter registration since I don't associate with the republican party anymore. I can't do it until April.
Why can't you change your voter registration until April? I just changed mine about two weeks ago.
I also have a friend who had three abortions (that she told me about -- hell, it could be more) before the age of 22. She had the same whackjob reasoning -- it was easier than remembering to take a pill every day and no BCP side effects. At the time she lived in a very liberal college town so she could always find somebody to pay for it if the guy wouldn't.
Post by phunluvin82 on Sept 19, 2012 10:00:19 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your story. I agree that reasonable political debates can in fact change peoples' outlook.
I have basically always been in the pro-choice camp, but FWIW, I do know someone who used abortions in the way that you mention so I know those people exist, but I really think they are the minority.
I also don't think outlawing abortion is the answer, even in cases like that...as many people mentioned in the other thread, many statistics suggest that better education and easier access to birth control are much more likely to reduce the occurence of abortions than outright outlawing them.
Post by shopgirl07 on Sept 19, 2012 10:48:54 GMT -5
I might get flamed for this but I really don't care if someone chooses to use abortion as birth control. It's their body and they have a right to do whatever they want with it.
It wouldn't be the path I'd take but I just don't understand getting so invested in other's choices.