Post by Velar Fricative on Feb 21, 2019 17:48:57 GMT -5
The guilt is strong and real. I can’t say why I woke up one day a year or two ago and decided I no longer wanted to call myself Catholic, but I did and I feel no guilt. I’m so angry with the Church. The Catholic identity was deep for me even as a non-practicing Catholic who hadn’t attended mass in years, so that’s why I couldn’t fathom just...disconnecting. Until one day I just didn’t want it to be part of my identity anymore.
I suspect this is a much harder process for those who want to practice a faith, because giving up Catholicism means also having to find a new denomination. I have no desire (DH is the same, which helps) to practice any kind of religion at this point, so it was a relatively easy process for me.
@@@ My kids were baptized but we will not be enrolling them in any kind of instruction or having them go through the other sacraments. This will not be a fun topic when DD1 is in second grade and our parents ask about her communion, but we have no problem telling them it’s not happening.
simpsongal I think you have to be raised in the Church to understand. I consider myself atheist now and didn’t baptize my daughter because I don’t believe in it/don’t support the church’s position on all the issues discussed here/their absolute failure in handling the sexual abuse cases, and I still feel INTENSELY guilty over no longer attending church. It’s like a brainwashing or something.
I think this is very true.
I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school from k-7 before moving overseas. I practiced and went to church every week (sometimes twice) until I went to college, where I found out the priest at the church I was attending molested altar boys with no repercussions. I haven't been back since yet I still feel guilty about it and not having DD baptized.
Why do I feel guilty for not supporting and being a part of a church that covers this up? I can't explain it.
H is fairly anti-organized religion (grew up Baptist in small town WV) but I'm not quite there yet. I would love to find a church that shares my beliefs and views but it's more work than I want to put in right now.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I think I will start with the Lutheran church since it is close and I know a few people who attend.
@@@@@@@ I was avoiding bringing kids into this, but since this thread has gone there now.....the thing that made the choice real to me was choosing to not sign DD up for religious ed this year. She's in 6th grade and has already gone through first communion. We haven't talked in detail about why we stopped going to church. I told her there were things about the church that I don't agree with. She hasn't asked and doesn't seem to miss going to church. DSs are in K now. I'm sure there will be questions when they are in 2nd grade and not taking first comminion.
simpsongal I think you have to be raised in the Church to understand. I consider myself atheist now and didn’t baptize my daughter because I don’t believe in it/don’t support the church’s position on all the issues discussed here/their absolute failure in handling the sexual abuse cases, and I still feel INTENSELY guilty over no longer attending church. It’s like a brainwashing or something.
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Yes all of this. I consider myself atheist, we weren't married in the church, I haven't attended regularly in 19 years, my kids aren't baptized, I don't support any of the church's positions and I think their handling of SO MANY ISSUES is abysmal and sinful. I STILL feel guilty about leaving. Which, tbh, is PART of why I don't want to raise my kids in religion. Why would I want to instill something that could hold this kind of power over them, decades later? Guilt is not a healthy motivator, from any source.
I was raised catholic an eastern rite my dad is a chaldean. The church is closely associated with Rome. I am an atheist now but we baptized the kids and they go to catholic school because my husband is still very catholic. We do not attend church at all. I'm finding it hard having such religious inlaws and trying to teach my kids things that may contradict with the other stuff my in laws are telling him.
The catholic church has broken my heart as well and I agree with the people distancing themselves.
Post by katieinthecity on Feb 22, 2019 9:39:04 GMT -5
TW/@@@
Probable UO.
(A major) part of my issue with organized religion - in what other sector of life would it be seen as acceptable - admirable even - for parents to continue to put their children in the care of an organization that has proven and admitted systemic child sex abuse coverups spanning decades? This has not been a secret FOR YEARS. At what point do we start to say the parents are complicit? I mean, if a kid comes forward now, saying that his priest abused him from like, 2015-2018, or whatever, how do we not say - why the fuck are parents still letting their kids be cared for by this organization?! If this was a school district, or daycare chain, or a pediatrician, or anything else? No parent in their right mind would be sending their kids there! Law enforcement would be tearing the place down! But for some reason, organized religion in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, hold this bizarre sway over normally sane, intelligent adults.
My parents raised me Catholic. Catholic school K-12, sang in the church choir, taught CCD. I was all in.
Until my parents got divorced. I was 18 or 19 at the time. Shortly after the divorce, I was asked to be a Godmother for a younger cousin. I went to my Pastor to sign off on the letter saying I was a good parishoner, etc. And he wouldn't sign it. Because I wasn't a registered parishoner. I had been going, week after week, singing in the choir, TEACHING CCD at the parish. But because when my parents divorced, that meant they were out of the church, and therefore, me since we were registered as a family. And myself as a 19 year old, never thought to register on my own. So because I was not submitting my envelopes full of money with my name on it, this Paster felt he wasn't able to sign off on a paper to verify that I was a good Catholic. (He did finally sign it, when I pushed back, hard. But fuck that dude that I wasn't a good parishoner because he couldn't tie my attendance to money. Dude, look up in the damn choir loft. I'm here, in a time that not many young adults were)
Around that same time, an older cousin, who was a priest in a local diocese, brought information to the Bishop, of another priest committing a sexual assault. And nothing was done. He brought it up several levels and was told to be quiet. He ended up leaving priesthood because he was so disgusted.
My father at this time began vocalizing his distrust in the church. I outright asked why he decided to raise me in the faith if he didn't believe. He rationalized that he wanted me to have a foundation, then allow me to draw my own conclusions from there.
@@@@initially, I thought I'd take the same approach with my kids. But I just can't. They've been baptized, because I honestly knew nothing else. But we're making the decision not to send them to the Catholic school we went to (where my mother teaches at). No CCD. It will be a dramatic to our extended families, but I can't sit through bullshit sermons and brainwash my kids. My gay BFF is not a lesser person. My friend that terminated her pregnancies due to medical reasons is not a terrible person. I may have guilt on some level, but I can't bring my kids into it and continue the cycle.
Though I'm OK with the decisions I've made for myself to leave the church. One area where I struggle is end of life. My father is not well. He has dementia and has been in a nursing home for 2 years now. I realize I'll need to plan a funeral at some point for him (hopefully later, rather than sooner). But I've never been to a wake/funeral that wasn't based in the Roman Catholic faith. I struggle that though I don't believe (and my dad expressed his doubts too before he got sick), but I don't know that I know how to separate grieving and honoring a person's life without all the Catholic prayers & rituals. This is something I think about a lot.
I think my biggest hesitation is that I know I can reject stuff I don’t agree with and have always been able to pick what I identify and believe in. But my fear is my kids. Yes they have my influence but it’s a random combination of factors that lets me totally ignore stuff and not let it affect me. My great aunt is a nun. My mom got divorced and remarried and is a devout Catholic. My great aunt was like “if you know you’re right with god and you made the choice, f what the Catholic Church says about divorce and remarriage!”I went to catholic schools k-12 with teachers that had us debate church teachings. All of that fed into me being totally confident in rejecting aspects of church teachings. And I guess I don’t trust that will be the same for my kids and they will be affected and isolated and hurt by teachings in a way I never was because they aren’t me, you know?
And I think how can I tell them we do x, y, and z and we stand up for what we think is right if we still belong to the Catholic Church. I used to see some hope for change from within and that’s why I stayed/came back. But I guess I don’t see that right now and think that makes it harder to explain and justify. If I truly believed change could be made it wouldn’t be hard to make that choice. But I don’t think I believe that it can anymore.
If you’re attending the church, or sending your kids to Catholic school, you’re supporting the church and all of the bullshit oppressive and hateful things they push for. It doesn’t actually matter what you think you personally believe or if you think it goes against the church. I understand guilt, and tradition, but those are the facts. You’re supporting an institution that works to marginalize communities, make women feel like worthless trash, and cover up sexual abuse.
My mom, brother, and sister in law are very "change from within." I respect that they have that perspective, but I disagree that the institution--which apologized to Galileo for the whole earth goes around the sun thing IN MY LIFETIME--is ever going to change enough or quickly enough to either risk the chance of harm to myself or my children or make it worth my time.
Fortunately for me, my dad is a straight up atheist whose sole use for any church is the absolutely excellent choral music written over hundreds of years. When I experienced guilt over not going to church or exposing my children to the faith that once was so very important to me, I look at him and say "nah, we'll be fine."
cville, in all the years of "knowing" you, I didn't know the extent of your story. I'm so incredibly sorry that happened to you. And fuck that priest. I'd say the torment he caused your faith filled( and incredible) mom would fall under the umbrella of "acts that send you to the hell."
I think people stick with the church because it works for them, without realizing that it only works for them because they work for the church. You have no idea what curveballs life will throw at you and your family. You all may not always fit in with the church. Then what?
If faith is part of your safety net, take the time to make sure it will be there when you fall.
The article I mentioned up thread, and the bill being passed in NY has lead to a lot of deeper conversations in our house. H has been an atheist for decades. The fact that abuse happened to a family member with its subsequent cover up yet his family is still so devout and devoted to the Catholic Church makes him so angry.
We were pretty clear with everyone that there was no way in hell our children were going anywhere near a Catholic Church but H's family still makes comments and judges us for that decision. His mother especially hopes that one day we "make the right choice." Our children are the only kids for generations back and current that are not in Catholic school.
The Catholic guilt is real and spills over to other part's of H's life. Not about not going to church, but regular life. It's so intense. And so fucked up.
Post by W.T.Faulkner on Feb 22, 2019 12:48:04 GMT -5
I’ll be dedicating my son in the Unitarian Universalist Church next week, the first in my family not to baptize my child Catholic in at least a hundred years, probably more. I left for him because of stories like these.
I must be broken, because I have zero Catholic guilt after being heavily indoctrinated in the church until college (weekly mass, weekly confession, taught CCD, the whole nine yards).
From big things like the treatment of my gay BFF when he came out and how my parish handled the clergy sex abuse scandal (my priest was one of those rounded up in the Spotlight investigation), to little things like realizing how fucked up it was that my mother was never allowed to receive communion because she was my dad's second wife (but was instead made to sit in the pew with a proverbial scarlet A on her chest while everyone else did) and the constant pressure for everyone to make their minimum suggested weekly donation, I find the whole institution vile.
This thread is timely, because I received an invitation to my nephew's confirmation today and I'm torn between supporting him and my intense hatred of the church.
Post by lissaholly on Feb 24, 2019 15:23:50 GMT -5
I was raised WELS, which is the most fundamental of the Lutheran branches. I think it is the one most tied to Martin Luther and the OG Protestant Church. I can identify to this article, very much. I really WANT to have faith, but I can’t in good spirit subject my girls to a religion that’s so focused on sexuality. I wish the church would just mind it’s own god damn business on that front. We don’t need abstinence, and we don’t need heterosexual marriages to produce good Christian soldiers.
Heartache is such a good way to describe this. You want to be such a happy little couple, organized religion and emotional rationality, but they aren’t vibing. It doesn’t help that your family is guiliting you over the break up:(
ETA: was5, my dad always says “ Ex Catholics always make the best Lutherans.” It’s a pointed comment, but I hope it’s true for you!
Post by miniroller on Feb 25, 2019 11:22:50 GMT -5
I thought others might appreciate this gem. Certainly no offense meant- I’m friends with several Catholics, & am struggling myself with Evangelical DISASTER, as a Baptist attendee, possibly changing soon. (So found this thread very helpful)
Scientology is just Catholicism for people who can afford spaceships. 😌 Additionally- for anyone interested: I highly recommend following John Pavolitz on Tw (@johnpavolitz), as someone who’s spiritual & religious life was also rocked by this election (losing/ ending multiple relationships because of his refusal to get behind #45). He writes thought-provoking essays, some of which are very helpful in sharing with fellow Christian Democrats. An essay for example: The Church of Not Being Horrible johnpavlovitz.com/2017/03/12/the-church-of-not-being-horrible/
I also love that my church has made it their mission to effect change in the community. So many of the Protestant churches I attended were so focused on the personal relationship w/God that they seemed to forget the importance of mission work and faith in action.
For the local folks (eg karinothing, aspentosh ), my church is doing awesome work with "Voice" (Virginians Organized for Interfaith Community Engagement" www.voice-iaf.org/ - they just secured Board of supervisors approval for restoration of a crucial bus route that serves a low income area of the community (at a cost of over $ 1 million - now that's impactful!).
How many of your “good” parishes are sitting on a secret list of child abusing priests?
This has been going on IN THE PUBLIC since the 90s!! Yet people still willingly hand over their hearts, souls, AND CHILDREN to this organization year after year. It’s unfathomable. If your kids’ elementary school had this level of historical harm to kids would you keep sending your kids there? NO. What tentacles this church must have on people.
This.
I guess I can't relate to clinging to such a corrupt and problematic institution. I "get" that one's faith and religious practice and worship community are often a fundamental aspect of their identity, but in the face of systemic injustice and abuse? Nope. And I've been there. I was raised around a religious cult. My father and stepmom (estranged) are still heavily involved in it. My father was a youth pastor and Baptist apologist. I grew up going to conferences, soul-winning, Sunday morning/evening and Wednesday evening services, women's bible study, served in the military ministry and had a deep passion for studying doctrine and theology. I lived it, breathed it, preached it, and believed in the unassailable truth that is IFB theology.
And when I started participating on Baptist forums 16 years ago, I noticed a lot of folks had deep issues and concerns, having left IFB for other Baptist sects because the IFB church, like many others, has a longstanding history of sexual abuse. The church my first husband and I started attending when we married was involved in a scandal. The head pastor stepped down after charges of molestation and sexual abuse. I did a lot more digging and found out the "main" church has a deep history of it with many of their pastors and deacons. The son of one of the founders was sent to a church in TX and later removed. I called said church to learn why and was told they could not discuss those matters. I continued digging up more scandals. After we PCS'd to a new duty station we started attending a popular church with military families, but I learned it dealt with its own scandals involving sexual harassment. It was also around that time that I took on an intense study of a variety of doctrines and was losing faith and questioning IFB theology. We slowly stopped attending, but I still felt that I needed to be "Baptist" so we tried a couple different sects, and they, too, had their issues. We just went from super duper fundie to super fundie. Shitty, questionable, bullshit doctrine remains so no matter what denomination or sect you hop to. It may be the low-calorie version or offer up diet bigotry/misogyny/sexism/racism/xenophobia/anti-LGBTQ+, but it's still all of those things.
I traded conservative evangelical for "mainstream" Christian, and then still realized the doctrine and theology was bullshit, so my quest continued. UU seemed to be a nice fit, along with other more progressive/inclusive sects. In any case, there was no way I could ever align with any form of mainstream theology, not in any form, not "traditional" or "lite" versions, because they're still deeply connected to a corrupt system that preys on and harms vulnerable people and children. As I've noticed, a lot of these "lite" versions of mainstream churches know believers flock to them when they've had a change of heart and developed a conscience and therefore can't support traditional, orthodox doctrines and systemic abuse and injustice. It allows them to feel good knowing they've chosen the better option, but really, they're still part of a system rooted in abuse and injustice. Churches are forced to change alongside society's social and cultural shifts, otherwise, they'd soon become irrelevant. It's a survival tactic. And while the more progressive options help folks sleep better, the vast majority of followers are not invested or active enough to effect any real change.
As a queer WoC and a mother to a non-binary pansexual daughter, it isn't enough for a religious organization to be surface-level woke and inclusive, especially when true change starts when these institutions realize they're losing dominance and control. That starts with losing members. But I don't see the RCC changing. Plus, it doesn't change the fact that, at its core, like many other conservative and mainstream denominations and sects, its doctrine and theology are inherently exclusive and problematic.
I was raised WELS, which is the most fundamental of the Lutheran branches. I think it is the one most tied to Martin Luther and the OG Protestant Church. I can identify to this article, very much. I really WANT to have faith, but I can’t in good spirit subject my girls to a religion that’s so focused on sexuality. I wish the church would just mind it’s own god damn business on that front. We don’t need abstinence, and we don’t need heterosexual marriages to produce good Christian soldiers.
Heartache is such a good way to describe this. You want to be such a happy little couple, organized religion and emotional rationality, but they aren’t vibing. It doesn’t help that your family is guiliting you over the break up:(
ETA: was5 , my dad always says “ Ex Catholics always make the best Lutherans.” It’s a pointed comment, but I hope it’s true for you!
Holla! Also raised WELS, so wanted to give a shout out, as I rarely find another in the wild. Ditto what you said. My grandpa was a pastor, great grandpa was a pastor, various cousins and second cousins are/were pastors, and many Lutheran school teachers in my family as well.
I relate to the Catholic guilt thing, because it's the same for me having left the WELS Lutheran church, and having so much of my family and family history tied up with it. It's so hard to describe to someone who didn't grow up with it.
Consider the response from the church and his peers
Consider the position he held until very recently in the church
Consider he was found guilty in a criminal court
Consider the allegations were around for decades and he still was welcomed into the inner fold of the vatican
Consider how Cardinal Pell reacted to abuse survivors and the royal commission in his home country for all these years (which was prior to him holding his pisition in the vatican)
After today i can no longer believe that the catholic church is rotten to the core
While institutional child sex abuse has not been unique unfortunately to the catholic church their ongoing response has been very different to many othet institutions.
People are feeling guilty about choosing to not bring their family into an institution known for harming children; or struggling with not bringing children to an individual place that would gladly, in a hot minute, be complicit in hiding abuse of their children? This does not compute.
I’m a former Catholic, went to Catholic school, and as soon as I was deemed “old enough” by my parents, I chose to walk away. Literally the last time I was at a Catholic church service was when I was confirmed. My parents followed soon after (well, I should say my dad since my mom was not religious beyond sending me to private school). I have lots of feelings on organized religion, even the liberal ones. Hive mind, institutionalized secrecy, group dynamics...all of these are destructive forces regardless of the politics at play.
ETA: Sorry I screwed up the tagging. I think I fixed it.