NCEPR: Former Pets Posters

[pixy0stix]

Sept 30, 2019 16:54:26 GMT -5 just said:

Sept 30, 2019 16:51:32 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

You're thinking of the English Bulldog.

It’s a thing for frenchies too

Huh. The more you know.

[orangello]

I am pretty sure the Chicago metro area is keeping the doodle trend alive, because they are EVERYWHERE.

Flameful - they’re not as cute as everyone keeps gushing about.

[eclaires]

I have two rescue chihuahua mixes now and the older one is legit the best dog ever. I’m obsessed with her because she’s perfect. Her only health issue in four years was self inflicted because she’s kind of dumb (swallowed an acorn whole which ended up with a $2500 surgery). Our new pup is also a chi mix of some kind. She’s adorable and fairly stupid, but we’ll see if she has any health issues.

My in laws had a labradoodle and I have never hated a dog more. Some of it was on them and how they raised her but she also just was awful in general. They got her from a pet store where she was on sale. I wish I was making that up. The pet store was near where they used to eat dinner with friends every weekend and the dog was there for quite awhile and my MIL felt bad and ended up buying her. She passed a few weeks ago but I think most of that was due to the fact that my ILs have gotten progressively crazier about their dogs. They basically overfeed them to death and I think their vet won’t tell them to stop or they won’t listen. My husband fights with them about it every time we see them but they won’t listen to reason. I just hope they don’t get another dog.

[foundmylazybum]

Why did the original person put together labs and poodles?

I hear people say "bc they wanted the intelligence, loyalty and athleticism of the lab.."

Wat. The poodle is literally all those things and low shedding.

They are like one of the smartest dogs ever and were carriage dogs in France. You know, running alongside the carriages for miles on end?

Nothing against the bouncy, high energy lab, but the poodle is a badass dog on it's own!

[niemand88f]

Sept 30, 2019 21:02:55 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Why did the original person put together labs and poodles?

I hear people say "bc they wanted the intelligence, loyalty and athleticism of the lab.."

Wat. The poodle is literally all those things and low shedding.

They are like one of the smartest dogs ever and were carriage dogs in France. You know, running alongside the carriages for miles on end?

Nothing against the bouncy, high energy lab, but the poodle is a badass dog on it's own!

Exactly! It makes me so angry when people buy a poodle mix because of "allergies" when there's no guarantee it won't have lab/golden fur. Get a poodle if your allergies are a real thing!
My cousin recently bought a bernadoodle because of "allergies" 

[atexan]

Poodles are awesome. We had one growing up and then I got one who passed away 3 years ago. She was the sweetest angel. Well-behaved, snuggly, smart, healthy right up to the end. I miss her and we are definitely getting another in a year or two.

[wise_rita]

Top answer about the 19th century dogs who need cessarians: the breeds have "evolved" since then.

Bigger heads, flatter faces today. They weren't always like that, if you go back and look at old timey photos.

So it was possible for them to be developed way back then but they've morphed into quite the unnatural mutants today.

[GilliC]

Sept 30, 2019 21:02:55 GMT -5 foundmylazybum said:

Why did the original person put together labs and poodles?

I hear people say "bc they wanted the intelligence, loyalty and athleticism of the lab.."

Wat. The poodle is literally all those things and low shedding.

They are like one of the smartest dogs ever and were carriage dogs in France. You know, running alongside the carriages for miles on end?

Nothing against the bouncy, high energy lab, but the poodle is a badass dog on it's own!

They needed a hypoallergenic guide dog, and apparently tried poodles but weren’t able to get it to work. Not sure why as poodle service dogs do exist. And then they apparently created a PR fiasco trying to offload the other puppies from the litter.

www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/us/labradoodle-creator-regret.html

In the podcast, Mr. Conron said he created the breed in 1989 while working at the Royal Guide Dogs Association of Australia. He had received a request from a blind woman in Hawaii whose husband was allergic to longhaired dogs. It should have been an easy problem to solve, he said, noting that poodles, which don’t shed, were a good choice. But he struggled to find a suitable match.

“Over the period of three years, I tried 33 standard poodles, but not one was successful,” he said.

His boss, John Gosling, pressured him to find an alternative, so he decided to breed a poodle and a Labrador. He met resistance from poodle breeders before deciding to mate his boss’s male poodle, Harley, with a female Labrador, Brandy.

Nine weeks later, Brandy gave birth to what are widely regarded as the world’s first labradoodles: Sheik, Simon and Sultan, according to reports at the time. Mr. Conron sent hair clippings from each to the woman in Hawaii, and only Sultan’s elicited no allergic reaction from her husband.

“He trained up and he finished up going to Hawaii, which was great,” Mr. Conron said.

But then there was the problem of the remaining two puppies. No one seemed to want them, so Mr. Conron went to his organization’s public relations department and urged it to tell reporters that the group had created a “special” hypoallergenic guide dog breed.

[lightbulbsun]

My SIL bought two goldendoodle puppies from an Amish breeder in Lancaster, PA, so basically a puppy mill. They got them because her H is allergic to dogs. He wasn't allergic to the first, but he is allergic to the second, because, surprise, they're not actually hypoallergenic dogs. They still haven't had the first one spayed because "they might want to breed her".

I spend a significant portion of my free time volunteering at a local shelter, and thinking about it too long makes me seethe.

*updated for correct terminology. 

[cattledogkisses]

Oct 1, 2019 7:30:12 GMT -5 lightbulbsun said:

My SIL bought two goldendoodle puppies from an Amish breeder in Lancaster, PA, so basically a backyard breeder. They got them because her H is allergic to dogs. He wasn't allergic to the first, but he is allergic to the second, because, surprise, they're not actually hypoallergenic dogs. They still haven't had the first one spayed because "they might want to breed her".

I spend a significant portion of my free time volunteering at a local shelter, and thinking about it too long makes me seethe.

Do they know that if they breed her to another "goldendoodle" they won't necessarily get more goldendoodles?  They'll end up with a whole mix of different traits that may not be the desirable ones that buyers are looking for.  This is why "doodle" mixes are not actual breeds.  Sigh.  Sorry, that would make me seethe too.

[basilosaurus]

Unless my genetics profs were wrong (I'm willing to admit this) all dogs can technically mate. So what's the issue with these problematic breeds? It can't be mechanics. Is it not viable due to inbreeding? I'm way too tired for a SciAm reading. I do know someone who paid 2k for a king charles cavalier (referenced at the beginning of the article) because it was cute. That's all the research she did.

[msmerymac]

Sept 30, 2019 11:55:12 GMT -5 nessness said:

Sept 30, 2019 11:29:37 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

No, that's a myth. In general, when you have a mutt you can't determine which part of the genetics they will inherit. That being said, purebreeds aren't a guarantee you're going to get a healthy dog either.

Huh. But is there any inherent reason that a labradoodle would be less healthy than a lab or a poodle? Or is it just that labradoodle breeders tend to be less responsible, and therefore less likely to perform genetic testing?

Anecdotally, my mutt, whose mom was feral and who does not resemble any particular breed, is by far the healthiest dog I've owned - in 7 years, she's never been to the vet for anything except routine care and a foot injury. I do suspect that dogs bred by several generations of natural selection are healthier than those bred for specific traits, but that would be a hard thing to collect data on.

Mixed breeds have the possibility of inheriting genetic issues from both/all breeds they come from. Brachycephalic syndrome and skin sensitivity in bull dogs, hip dysplasia in labs, intervertebral disc issues in dachshunds and corgis. You aren't breeding those out just because you're diluting the breed. You have to select against those genetic issues. Which means you have to use breeding dogs that have been tested or have a family history of NOT displaying those issues, which means your breeding stock needs to be from breeders who actually genetically test and follow the health histories of the dogs they sell and the family trees of the dogs they use. 

Serious breeders who spend time and money on genetic testing do so in order to advance the breed they work with. This is a breed they know a LOT about and admire for whatever reason. Most recognized breeds today (but not all) were developed for specific functions, which is how you get the working group (herding, etc), the hound group (hunting, etc), retrievers, terriers (rodents), and what have you. Yes, there are now toy groups and miscellaneous groups to house breeds that don't fit a "job" they did for humans, but for much of our history, dogs were bred with helpful traits in mind. Throwing together two breeds with their own use and centuries of development all willy-nilly is pretty abhorrent to most breeders, who, again, are breeding for love of the breed and how they think they can further the breed standard. 


FTR, I have not had an a dog as an adult (but had a yellow lab and beagles, all rescue, as a kid), but I DO have several purebred cats (2 Persians and 1 exotic shorthair at the moment). Purebred cats have the same breeding stuff going on. Many people also find Persians and Himalayans to be "hypoallergenic," but it's really just that their fur and dander is different than a standard short hair, and less reactive for some people. I've adopted Persians who were likely badly bred in a kitten mill (loved them to pieces, but both died fairly young, one at age 6 from polycystic kidney disease, which is genetic and which good breeders test for to make sure it doesn't end up in their cattery). When adopting a rescue, there's a good possibility it's originally from a mill or backyard breeder, and that's a risk you take. Good breeders will take back their dogs or cats if anything happens - and often have clauses in their contracts requiring that. So the ones that pass from person to person or shelter to rescue are not covered by those clauses. I know people who have gone back to paying thousands of dollars for their cats to quality breeders because of bad experiences with rescue or backyard breeding. 

[jlt19]

Oct 1, 2019 7:30:12 GMT -5 lightbulbsun said:

My SIL bought two goldendoodle puppies from an Amish breeder in Lancaster, PA, so basically a backyard breeder. They got them because her H is allergic to dogs. He wasn't allergic to the first, but he is allergic to the second, because, surprise, they're not actually hypoallergenic dogs. They still haven't had the first one spayed because "they might want to breed her".

I spend a significant portion of my free time volunteering at a local shelter, and thinking about it too long makes me seethe.

Amish aren't even byb, they're puppy mills.

[meltoine]

Oct 1, 2019 9:15:54 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Unless my genetics profs were wrong (I'm willing to admit this) all dogs can technically mate. So what's the issue with these problematic breeds? It can't be mechanics. Is it not viable due to inbreeding? I'm way too tired for a SciAm reading. I do know someone who paid 2k for a king charles cavalier (referenced at the beginning of the article) because it was cute. That's all the research she did.

My understanding from what someone else said upthread is that the various characteristics of the breeds may not be compatible. So while they technically can mate, a female Chihuahua and a male St. Bernard, for example, will cause problems because the puppies may be too big/not properly shaped for the mom to birth healthily. 

Also, breeds have been selected over hundreds of generations for certain personalities or skills, and a combination of those may result in undesirable personalities. I vaguely recall that being what the original guy was talking about when I heard him on NPR over the weekend when he called them "crazy". Like, two very hyper, active breeds combine to create puppies/dogs who are waaaaaay too energetic for the average suburban household and can be dangerous.

[cattledogkisses]

I wonder about the size issue with the teacup doodle mixes. I know a few people that have bought teacup goldendoodle mixes, and crossing a teacup poodle with a golden retriever just seems like a recipe for issues.

[Chuppathingy]

I purchased my bernadoodle, from the best quality breeder I could find. They tested the parents in every way possible and did genetic testing on the pups after birth. They also gave me all the disclaimers mentioned by a previous poster. I realize that many of you despise breeders. I have no problem but I think my dog is the best choice I ever could’ve made. I got her when I wanted her, and exactly what I wanted in a dog. I have lucked out that she is low shed and does not seem to produce dander and I have been allergic to and other dogs. I did seriously consider a rescue. I did not find any particularly disagreeable, but their requirements were onerous.They wanted to inspect my home three times, would not guarantee anything, and they wanted me to agree that they could continue random home inspections after adoption and could take the dog back at any time if they didn’t like a change to my situation. Getting a dog for myself and knowing my family and I would be extremely attached in no time, I didn’t find that acceptable. But I know the whole allergy thing working out was just dumb luck. If it hadn’t I’d be back to taking Claritin every day.

All this is to say that I think doodles are awesome.

[pixy0stix]

I'm tired. Chuppathingy , is the perfect example of why we're never going to win the war against bad breeders. People want what they want when they want it. Instant gratification is a hard thing to combat. They will justify ever single decision because they have already gotten what they wanted. We can educate people until we're blue in the face, and they will still never understand why some rescues are so stringent.

[eclaires]

4 years ago when we adopted our first chi mix, our vet recommended a small breed rescue first. They turned us down out of hand because of @@@@@ small children in the home. So we checked with the humane society and they had a chi/pug mix litter and their rule for @@@@@ kids was age 5 (which we met). This time around we were looking at both (the rescue our vet recommended and the humane society) and the perfect pup popped up at the rescue. They called me first thing the day after we applied giddy because of our “glowing vet recommendation” and how we’d be the perfect fit for the dog we applied for.

Anyway, four years ago I was annoyed by their rules but I do get it. I think if they had let us get to the step of glowing vet recommendation they might have considered us. But then we wouldn’t have Melly who is the most perfect dog ever despite her one time bad choice to swallow an acorn whole.

[Chuppathingy]

Oct 1, 2019 11:59:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm tired. Chuppathingy , is the perfect example of why we're never going to win the war against bad breeders. People want what they want when they want it. Instant gratification is a hard thing to combat. They will justify ever single decision because they have already gotten what they wanted. We can educate people until we're blue in the face, and they will still never understand why some rescues are so stringent.

I think a lot of the disconnect maybe down to a difference in word view of both animals and rescues. I love my dog. I cannot imagine a life without her. That said I still recognize that she is a piece of property and not a person. I also don’t see rescues as being different from breeders. Given the sheer volume of articles I’ve read in the last year, I believe Wapo had the first big one, I know rescues are often bulk buyers from puppy mills and then sell at a profit, or animal hoarders, or have them put down

I understand your position and I don’t think I’ll breeders are ethical or have the best interest of the animal in mind by any stretch of the imagination. My decision was the right one for me. If you were able to get a pet you love from an ethical rescue that’s wonderful. I hope you do win the war against bad breeders. There are plenty of them. I put a great deal of thought and care into choosing one. I also sincerely hope that rescues become much more strictly regulated so that they are actually rescuing animals and that they become more accessible as sources for people to get their pets.

[meltoine]

Oct 1, 2019 12:17:38 GMT -5 eclaires said:

4 years ago when we adopted our first chi mix, our vet recommended a small breed rescue first. They turned us down out of hand because of @@@@@ small children in the home. So we checked with the humane society and they had a chi/pug mix litter and their rule for @@@@@ kids was age 5 (which we met). This time around we were looking at both (the rescue our vet recommended and the humane society) and the perfect pup popped up at the rescue. They called me first thing the day after we applied giddy because of our “glowing vet recommendation” and how we’d be the perfect fit for the dog we applied for.

Anyway, four years ago I was annoyed by their rules but I do get it. I think if they had let us get to the step of glowing vet recommendation they might have considered us. But then we wouldn’t have Melly who is the most perfect dog ever despite her one time bad choice to swallow an acorn whole.

I volunteered for a time at a local rescue, and I was surprised by how many of the dogs they adopted out got returned. Not for issues with the dog, but because of a move, divorce, owner illness, just deciding they didn't eat the dog, etc. So I get why they have strict requirements. Dogs who have been re-surrendered are harder to find homes for because people worry that there's something terribly wrong with them. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to not only have to find homes for re-surrenders because of major life changes, but also because the family/person wasn't vetted in the first place and had no business being a pet owner.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 1, 2019 12:19:13 GMT -5 Chuppathingy said:

Oct 1, 2019 11:59:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm tired. Chuppathingy , is the perfect example of why we're never going to win the war against bad breeders. People want what they want when they want it. Instant gratification is a hard thing to combat. They will justify ever single decision because they have already gotten what they wanted. We can educate people until we're blue in the face, and they will still never understand why some rescues are so stringent.

I think a lot of the disconnect maybe down to a difference in word view of both animals and rescues. I love my dog. I cannot imagine a life without her. That said I still recognize that she is a piece of property and not a person. I also don’t see rescues as being different from breeders. Given the sheer volume of articles I’ve read in the last year, I believe Wapo had the first big one, I know rescues are often bulk buyers from puppy mills and then sell at a profit, or animal hoarders, or have them put down

I understand your position and I don’t think I’ll breeders are ethical or have the best interest of the animal in mind by any stretch of the imagination. My decision was the right one for me. If you were able to get a pet you love from an ethical rescue that’s wonderful. I hope you do win the war against bad breeders. There are plenty of them. I put a great deal of thought and care into choosing one. I also sincerely hope that rescues become much more strictly regulated so that they are actually rescuing animals and that they become more accessible as sources for people to get their pets.

The main problem here is that you are *actively* and *vocally* advocating that people buy a dog from a backyard breeder. You can justify it 8 ways from Sunday, but you are supporting the system that ends up with millions of animals chucked in a landfill. You, personally, are the reason those puppymills exist. That's the disconnect that most people cannot or do not want to face.

[GilliC]

Oct 1, 2019 12:19:13 GMT -5 Chuppathingy said:

That said I still recognize that she is a piece of property

...or a living, breathing organism with thoughts, reactions, and emotions?

[eclaires]

Oct 1, 2019 12:23:37 GMT -5 meltoine said:

Oct 1, 2019 12:17:38 GMT -5 eclaires said:

4 years ago when we adopted our first chi mix, our vet recommended a small breed rescue first. They turned us down out of hand because of @@@@@ small children in the home. So we checked with the humane society and they had a chi/pug mix litter and their rule for @@@@@ kids was age 5 (which we met). This time around we were looking at both (the rescue our vet recommended and the humane society) and the perfect pup popped up at the rescue. They called me first thing the day after we applied giddy because of our “glowing vet recommendation” and how we’d be the perfect fit for the dog we applied for.

Anyway, four years ago I was annoyed by their rules but I do get it. I think if they had let us get to the step of glowing vet recommendation they might have considered us. But then we wouldn’t have Melly who is the most perfect dog ever despite her one time bad choice to swallow an acorn whole.

I volunteered for a time at a local rescue, and I was surprised by how many of the dogs they adopted out got returned. Not for issues with the dog, but because of a move, divorce, owner illness, just deciding they didn't eat the dog, etc. So I get why they have strict requirements. Dogs who have been re-surrendered are harder to find homes for because people worry that there's something terribly wrong with them. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to not only have to find homes for re-surrenders because of major life changes, but also because the family/person wasn't vetted in the first place and had no business being a pet owner.

Our rescue also does a 7 day home visit now where the adoption isn’t final until after they’ve been with you a week. We were ready to finalize right away because we are crazy dog people but we had to reconfirm with them on the 7th day and check in with the foster mom during that 7 day period. It wasn’t a big deal. I think we are going to start fostering for them too once our pup is a little older.

[GilliC]

I re-read part of the original article and only now picked up that of the three “original” goldendoodles, only one was actually hypo-allergenic! Oh, the irony that they’re so often touted that way now.

Brandy gave birth to what are widely regarded as the world’s first labradoodles: Sheik, Simon and Sultan, according to reports at the time. Mr. Conron sent hair clippings from each to the woman in Hawaii, and only Sultan’s elicited no allergic reaction from her husband.

[cattledogkisses]

Genetic testing isn't the only condition to be an ethical breeder. Someone who's breeding "bernadoodle" mixes is breeding mutts that aren't a real breed for profit, genetic testing or no.

[downtoearth]

I do think the doodle mixes are cute - I'm not going to go out of my way to get one, or go through a breeder, but I did grow up with papered English Springer Spaniel hunting dogs in my house. I actually almost got a doodle mix (a doodle had puppies so a mix of a mix?) from a local shelter/rescue about 5 years ago. I was turned down for that one due to my yard not being fenced.

I do think rescues are pretty strict about their rules and that they could relax a bit, but I get it - even though if I have been turned down two times b/c I don't have a fenced yard. I have the means and ability to take care of a dog - and have had dogs my entire adult life, but I am frustrated that they don't take the character of people and references into account more than the physicality of having a fence. They wanted me to install a fence - like a $10k project for my lot, and called me 2-3 times after that to see if I was ready to adopt and had installed a fence b/c "I was a great candidate." I realize they have to have rules because they see some terrible pet owners, and I can't imagine what those people are like. I still donate to them and support them, but I was a bit offended that they called me when the shelter got full after they rejected me before.

[meltoine]

Oct 1, 2019 12:29:19 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Oct 1, 2019 12:23:37 GMT -5 meltoine said:

I volunteered for a time at a local rescue, and I was surprised by how many of the dogs they adopted out got returned. Not for issues with the dog, but because of a move, divorce, owner illness, just deciding they didn't eat the dog, etc. So I get why they have strict requirements. Dogs who have been re-surrendered are harder to find homes for because people worry that there's something terribly wrong with them. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to not only have to find homes for re-surrenders because of major life changes, but also because the family/person wasn't vetted in the first place and had no business being a pet owner.

Our rescue also does a 7 day home visit now where the adoption isn’t final until after they’ve been with you a week. We were ready to finalize right away because we are crazy dog people but we had to reconfirm with them on the 7th day and check in with the foster mom during that 7 day period. It wasn’t a big deal. I think we are going to start fostering for them too once our pup is a little older.

Ours did a home visit to make sure we had a fenced yard and such, called our previous vets for references, and spent a lot of time with us going over the dogs they had and which were suitable for our family makeup. I appreciated their thoroughness.

[suburbanzookeeper]

Oct 1, 2019 12:19:13 GMT -5 Chuppathingy said:

Oct 1, 2019 11:59:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I'm tired. Chuppathingy , is the perfect example of why we're never going to win the war against bad breeders. People want what they want when they want it. Instant gratification is a hard thing to combat. They will justify ever single decision because they have already gotten what they wanted. We can educate people until we're blue in the face, and they will still never understand why some rescues are so stringent.

I think a lot of the disconnect maybe down to a difference in word view of both animals and rescues. I love my dog. I cannot imagine a life without her. That said I still recognize that she is a piece of property and not a person. I also don’t see rescues as being different from breeders. Given the sheer volume of articles I’ve read in the last year, I believe Wapo had the first big one, I know rescues are often bulk buyers from puppy mills and then sell at a profit, or animal hoarders, or have them put down

I understand your position and I don’t think I’ll breeders are ethical or have the best interest of the animal in mind by any stretch of the imagination. My decision was the right one for me. If you were able to get a pet you love from an ethical rescue that’s wonderful. I hope you do win the war against bad breeders. There are plenty of them. I put a great deal of thought and care into choosing one. I also sincerely hope that rescues become much more strictly regulated so that they are actually rescuing animals and that they become more accessible as sources for people to get their pets.

In 17 years of rescue - over my half my life - I have never in my circles of friends and associates purchased puppies period. We do not make "money" on puppies. There are some horrible bad apples but most rescues are genuinely good people who care about what they're doing (for free or out of their own pocket). Occasionally we are able to to put money back into the rescue because we got healthy puppies who required minimal intervention before adoption. 70% of my underaged puppies with the rescue come in directly from the shelter (who will euthanize because they're a health risk and they cannot hold them until they're legally able to adopt). 30% are private party surrenders - occasionally backyard breeders who got in over their heads, folks who were gifted a dog, bought it off of Craigslist and realized "oh shit, I can't handle this!", etc. My current foster puppy was an animal cruelty case and was brought in to the shelter as evidence and then shipped off to me once the DA signed off. 

Would you like to see how much output I've put out in 2019 on my fosters? I've had 24 so far this year, we primarily foster puppies and kittens for our local animal shelter now. I am DRAMATICALLY different than a breeder who is pocketing profit. 

[eclaires]

All I know is we paid $175 for our current rescue and she’s had all her puppy shots at our fancy vet and it includes her spaying (because they know us and know we use the same vet they do they at letting the vet decide when to spay her since she is tiny, we just have to give them her rescue name to make sure we aren’t billed when the time comes).

No ones making money off that dog. Lol.

[lightbulbsun]

Oct 1, 2019 8:27:06 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Oct 1, 2019 7:30:12 GMT -5 lightbulbsun said:

My SIL bought two goldendoodle puppies from an Amish breeder in Lancaster, PA, so basically a backyard breeder. They got them because her H is allergic to dogs. He wasn't allergic to the first, but he is allergic to the second, because, surprise, they're not actually hypoallergenic dogs. They still haven't had the first one spayed because "they might want to breed her".

I spend a significant portion of my free time volunteering at a local shelter, and thinking about it too long makes me seethe.

Do they know that if they breed her to another "goldendoodle" they won't necessarily get more goldendoodles?  They'll end up with a whole mix of different traits that may not be the desirable ones that buyers are looking for.  This is why "doodle" mixes are not actual breeds.  Sigh.  Sorry, that would make me seethe too.

Honestly I have no idea what they think will happen.  BIL's sister is also very involved in animal rescue and we have both tried to tell them how detrimental backyard breeding is for so many reasons, but they are just like "but we're different, we actually take care of her, tra la la!".