Post by redheadbaker on Sept 30, 2019 11:07:59 GMT -5
Anyone longing for the Doodle Wars of olden times? Weigh in here!
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"We love Labradoodles, and have many in our Petplan family. If you're a Labradoodle lover, how do you feel about this? [Article titled: Labradoodle creator calls the dog breed his life's regret]"
Can someone explain the issue the article cites of cross-breeds having more health issues than pure breeds? Aren't mixed breed dogs generally healthier?
I'm Team Rescue all the way, and I agree that breed fads are bad, but I have a hard time understanding why buying a labradoodle is ethically worse than buying a purebred.
Can someone explain the issue the article cites of cross-breeds having more health issues than pure breeds? Aren't mixed breed dogs generally healthier?
No, that's a myth. In general, when you have a mutt you can't determine which part of the genetics they will inherit. That being said, purebreeds aren't a guarantee you're going to get a healthy dog either.
Post by basilosaurus on Sept 30, 2019 11:42:53 GMT -5
Hmm. My understanding of the controversy is they're selling it (for $$$$) as a breed when it's not. They're banking on "cute" or healthier. Cute, maybe, because pups are cute. But healthier? That's not a given. In the pursuit of profit they likely don't care about health and genetics, and yet people are willing to pay.
Can someone explain the issue the article cites of cross-breeds having more health issues than pure breeds? Aren't mixed breed dogs generally healthier?
No, that's a myth. In general, when you have a mutt you can't determine which part of the genetics they will inherit. That being said, purebreeds aren't a guarantee you're going to get a healthy dog either.
Huh. But is there any inherent reason that a labradoodle would be less healthy than a lab or a poodle? Or is it just that labradoodle breeders tend to be less responsible, and therefore less likely to perform genetic testing?
Anecdotally, my mutt, whose mom was feral and who does not resemble any particular breed, is by far the healthiest dog I've owned - in 7 years, she's never been to the vet for anything except routine care and a foot injury. I do suspect that dogs bred by several generations of natural selection are healthier than those bred for specific traits, but that would be a hard thing to collect data on.
No, that's a myth. In general, when you have a mutt you can't determine which part of the genetics they will inherit. That being said, purebreeds aren't a guarantee you're going to get a healthy dog either.
Huh. But is there any inherent reason that a labradoodle would be less healthy than a lab or a poodle? Or is it just that labradoodle breeders tend to be less responsible, and therefore less likely to perform genetic testing?
Anecdotally, my mutt, whose mom was feral and who does not resemble any particular breed, is by far the healthiest dog I've owned - in 7 years, she's never been to the vet for anything except routine care and a foot injury. I do suspect that dogs bred by several generations of natural selection are healthier than those bred for specific traits, but that would be a hard thing to collect data on.
I think the issue is that, since labradoodles and other "doodle" mixes aren't real breeds, there's no such thing as a responsible doodle breeder. Responsible breeders don't intentionally cross breeds to make what are essentially fancy mutts that don't breed true. Someone correct me if that's wrong.
Post by basilosaurus on Sept 30, 2019 12:41:48 GMT -5
A labradoodle from a backyard breeder are no different IMO. Neither is known for due diligence. With mutts we know not to expect anything. No one made assurances and took our money. I'm fine with mutts for rescue. I had one and would have another if my life settles down. I'm not ok with charging a ton of money and pretending it's a legit practice. They breed for appearances only. And, yes, they're fancy mutts. Many are cast off because genetics are funny that way, and they don't know what they'll get therefore what will sell. Oh, is that a soapbox I'm on?
If anyone could settle my life, I know a boston terrier like mutt in Thailand that wants me as mom.
This is timely as I'm staying with a friend with a golden/poodle mix. Her old coworker bought him as a puppy and was going to return him within 3 days but coworker took him. He's amazing and everyone loves him, but holy hell, at 2 years old and massive, I have never seen such a high energy dog. I think it's so funny I heard about the original breeders regrets just last week on NPR and how he says the dogs are crazy, and then I come here and meet a real live crazy one. Wonder if that "trait" actually breeds true, lol.
No, that's a myth. In general, when you have a mutt you can't determine which part of the genetics they will inherit. That being said, purebreeds aren't a guarantee you're going to get a healthy dog either.
Huh. But is there any inherent reason that a labradoodle would be less healthy than a lab or a poodle? Or is it just that labradoodle breeders tend to be less responsible, and therefore less likely to perform genetic testing?
Anecdotally, my mutt, whose mom was feral and who does not resemble any particular breed, is by far the healthiest dog I've owned - in 7 years, she's never been to the vet for anything except routine care and a foot injury. I do suspect that dogs bred by several generations of natural selection are healthier than those bred for specific traits, but that would be a hard thing to collect data on.
Along with what cattledogkisses said, the stock these breeders are using haven't been bred for anything other than they're a lab or a poodle. No breeder that is breeding for purity would ever let their animals be used for this. Plus, in the US, you can't shake a stick and not attract a poorly bred lab. They're basically mutts at this point.
Anecdotally, I have a maltese/and we think chi mix pup who has already at just 1 yo had to have hip surgery for degenerative hip disease, and has luxating patellas on all her legs. She's adorable, so we're going to keep shelling out money for her, but omg she's a mess.
Part of the issue has been that some of these mixes are not compatible physiologically. So for example their brain might be bigger than their skull so it causes them a lot of pain. I might not be explaining it well. I’ll try to look for the article it’s been at least a few years since I read it
Huh. But is there any inherent reason that a labradoodle would be less healthy than a lab or a poodle? Or is it just that labradoodle breeders tend to be less responsible, and therefore less likely to perform genetic testing?
Anecdotally, my mutt, whose mom was feral and who does not resemble any particular breed, is by far the healthiest dog I've owned - in 7 years, she's never been to the vet for anything except routine care and a foot injury. I do suspect that dogs bred by several generations of natural selection are healthier than those bred for specific traits, but that would be a hard thing to collect data on.
Along with what cattledogkisses said, the stock these breeders are using haven't been bred for anything other than they're a lab or a poodle. No breeder that is breeding for purity would ever let their animals be used for this. Plus, in the US, you can't shake a stick and not attract a poorly bred lab. They're basically mutts at this point.
Anecdotally, I have a maltese/and we think chi mix pup who has already at just 1 yo had to have hip surgery for degenerative hip disease, and has luxating patellas on all her legs. She's adorable, so we're going to keep shelling out money for her, but omg she's a mess.
Yeah, anecdotally I know someone who spent thousands of dollars on a lab from a backyard breeder. The dog is still young and has already had health issues.
I feel like I know so many people who refuse to consider rescue dogs because "all rescue dogs have issues," but the dogs among my family and friends that have the most issues all came from backyard breeders. Meanwhile I've adopted two healthy (purebred even!) rescue pups. Our neighbors loved both of our girls so much that they wanted to get a dog of the same breed, but even though they knew that ours were rescues they wouldn't even consider a rescue because "you don't know what you're going to get" and went to a breeder instead. It's weird to me. We adopted our girls as adult dogs from rescues that fostered so we had a pretty good idea of what we were getting. A puppy seems like much more of a gamble to me!
Post by oliverboliverbutt on Sept 30, 2019 14:19:09 GMT -5
Part of the issue too is that they're often billed as hypoallergenic and/or non-shedding.. but with something that's a cross, you never know if you'll get poodle hair or lab fur. If someone got a puppy with this in mind, it's going to end badly for everyone.
I think too that people buy poodle mutts (or other designer mutts) for their perceived cuteness or novelty,and maybe these people aren't thinking about what dog traits would suit them, or maybe wouldn't even get a dog otherwise, and we get more bad fits, more bad owners, less spay/neuter, more puppies, etc. The people breeding their dogs to make money off this novelty are also not the people/dogs who should be breeding.
Post by mrsukyankee on Sept 30, 2019 15:17:26 GMT -5
I know one good reasonably ethical labradoodle breeder. She doesn't state that her dogs are going to look a certain way or be hypoallergenic or a certain size. People buying from her known that it's a bit of a crapshoot as to the colour and type of fur. She has her bitches and males tested in every way possible (eyes, knees, etc) and if she owns a bitch or male who has anything other than very strong results, she doesn't use them and they become a family pet. She is very choosy as to what dog she'll breed with (they also need to have all the tests) and she only has done 2 breeding seasons per bitch max. She makes sure to check on the people who are buying puppies from her - they go through a similar check to the rescues in the area. She gets them micro-chipped (which is a legal issue over here), appropriately socialises them and exposes them to various situations/sounds before she lets them go. She took back a dog she bred at the age of 1-1/2 because of a death in the family.
Not all breeders are good breeders. Not all labradoodle breeders are going to be bad breeders.
Barney was not from her. I got him from a rescue. I'll get another labradoodle from the rescue next summer because I've enjoyed having him and have loved every labradoodle I've met from the rescue (they have a big summer gathering and various local gathers in the year).
Post by aspentosh on Sept 30, 2019 15:26:59 GMT -5
I saw a labradoodle one time that was really cute and made a casual comment to my sister about it. After both our rescues died (of old age and ailments) she went to buy us a puppy labradoodle as a surprise and then balked at the price. This is coming from someone that has a HHI of over $400k/year. It is insane what people pay for these dogs.
Our current dog is a rescue but we did the DNA test and she's a purebred. So ha! lol.
Labradoodles aren't the worst of the designer "breeds." I think that award goes to the French Bulldog.
Well, this gets into semantics. The French Bulldog was initially a mixbreed/designer, but in the late 1800's! It's had had a breed standard since the turn of the 20th century so it's not completely fair to talk about them in the same breath as the current rash of oodles. There are many other dogs that most people would consider pure-bred that were 'created' more recently than that. I
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
Post by basilosaurus on Sept 30, 2019 16:02:07 GMT -5
I don't mind paying $50 for a mutt from a rescue. I don't mind labradoodles being mutts. I mind them being billed as something else and charging a shitton. They are not a breed, and they don't deliver what you're promising.
Not all labradoodle breeders are going to be bad breeders.
False. They are bad breeders just for the mere fact that they are breeding to make money and cashing in on a hot trend. They can't show these dogs. They can't even breed a true breed from them. They also are guilty of paving the way for other, less ethical, breeders.
Labradoodles aren't the worst of the designer "breeds." I think that award goes to the French Bulldog.
Well, this gets into semantics. The French Bulldog was initially a mixbreed/designer, but in the late 1800's! It's had had a breed standard since the turn of the 20th century so it's not completely fair to talk about them in the same breath as the current rash of oodles. There are many other dogs that most people would consider pure-bred that were 'created' more recently than that. I
For that matter, the doberman is a mixed breed. All breeds are somehow "created." Maybe this is elitist talking. What's a breed? When does it become ok? Bahamian potcake is now a "breed." That's definitely a mutt. But I stand by my stance that the doodles are irresponsible breeders as a general statement. But I hold that view of most breeders so feel free to discard my stance.
Post by suburbanzookeeper on Sept 30, 2019 16:18:59 GMT -5
I think the concept of the "doodle" has been long overblown - they're fancy mutts and 97% of the breeders are doing it for the $$$$. I know many people over the years in and out of rescue land who've bought a labradoodle thinking they were getting a "perfect" dog - smart yet not destructive, hypoallergenic, family friendly, the exact size expected, etc... and they're not. Most are not genetically vetting their animals for hips, elbows, and other genetic issues specific to both breeds involved. We see them come through the shelter with enough frequency that it's not unique. Labradors and poodles have their own unique personality traits and issues that are not guarantees when intermixing.
I have one purebred (Yorkshire Terrier) and three mutts (Shepherd mix, Jack Russel Terrier mix, and Shih Tzu-somethingsomething mix).
I just have a hard time with the concept of shelling out stupid amounts of money when our local shelters are euthanizing en mass for a mixed breed.
Well, this gets into semantics. The French Bulldog was initially a mixbreed/designer, but in the late 1800's! It's had had a breed standard since the turn of the 20th century so it's not completely fair to talk about them in the same breath as the current rash of oodles. There are many other dogs that most people would consider pure-bred that were 'created' more recently than that. I
For that matter, the doberman is a mixed breed. All breeds are somehow "created." Maybe this is elitist talking. What's a breed? When does it become ok? Bahamian potcake is now a "breed." That's definitely a mutt. But I stand by my stance that the doodles are irresponsible breeders as a general statement. But I hold that view of most breeders so feel free to discard my stance.
I don’t know that my post was disagreeing with you? I was making the point that most people wouldn’t consider French bulldogs mixbreeds, and even if that was their origin, it’s not nearly the same as oodle breeders.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
For that matter, the doberman is a mixed breed. All breeds are somehow "created." Maybe this is elitist talking. What's a breed? When does it become ok? Bahamian potcake is now a "breed." That's definitely a mutt. But I stand by my stance that the doodles are irresponsible breeders as a general statement. But I hold that view of most breeders so feel free to discard my stance.
I don’t know that my post was disagreeing with you? I was making the point that most people wouldn’t consider French bulldogs mixbreeds, and even if that was their origin, it’s not nearly the same as oodle breeders.
I don't think you were disagreeing. It was a rhetorical question. When does a breed become a breed? But I do wonder why the call out of a french bulldog.
For that matter, the doberman is a mixed breed. All breeds are somehow "created." Maybe this is elitist talking. What's a breed? When does it become ok? Bahamian potcake is now a "breed." That's definitely a mutt. But I stand by my stance that the doodles are irresponsible breeders as a general statement. But I hold that view of most breeders so feel free to discard my stance.
I don’t know that my post was disagreeing with you? I was making the point that most people wouldn’t consider French bulldogs mixbreeds, and even if that was their origin, it’s not nearly the same as oodle breeders.
How were French Bulldogs bred in the 1800s? I thought they can't actually mate physically and most FB births are through cesarean delivery.
My point is that the "breed" of French Bulldogs is a very wasteful venture. And the whole dog "breed" concept is a bit of a moot point.
I don’t know that my post was disagreeing with you? I was making the point that most people wouldn’t consider French bulldogs mixbreeds, and even if that was their origin, it’s not nearly the same as oodle breeders.
How were French Bulldogs bred in the 1800s? I thought they can't actually mate physically and most FB births are through cesarean delivery.
My point is that the "breed" of French Bulldogs is a very wasteful venture. And the whole dog "breed" concept is a bit of a moot point.
I don’t know that my post was disagreeing with you? I was making the point that most people wouldn’t consider French bulldogs mixbreeds, and even if that was their origin, it’s not nearly the same as oodle breeders.
How were French Bulldogs bred in the 1800s? I thought they can't actually mate physically and most FB births are through cesarean delivery.
My point is that the "breed" of French Bulldogs is a very wasteful venture. And the whole dog "breed" concept is a bit of a moot point.
The breed standards for all breeds including French Bulldogs have become more extreme over the years. So in the early-mid 20th century, the proportions between the FB hips and head size didn’t preclude natural birth. However the more the standards promote the big headedness of dogs, the bigger they become, but that takes generations. Hence the mess they’re in now. Also, people knew how to artificially mate animals and do csections 100 years ago.
However yes to all your points. I’m not arguing with the fact that breed standards are bullshit.
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”
“With sorrow—for this Court, but more, for the many millions of American women who have today lost a fundamental constitutional protection—we dissent,”